Too Many Jan Join Dates Asking About Sub Ohm

[novamatt]

Im only chiming in because this issue is relevant to my day to day.

In my short 8 months vapin i have become what i consider an advanced vaper. I have literally spent 3-5 hrs per day researching ad studying electronics and ecigs and all that goes into them. Only because my job is such that i am afforded that luxury. So i am pretty well rounded in my knowledge of ecig safety.

Now thru me simply vaping at work, 10 or more folks have switched from smoking. 3 of them have really just jumped into mechs and Rdas as their FIRST devices. I even said hey dont do tht right away. Then i tried to educate them on the incredibly important aspects of subohming.

Guy #1 asked me why cant i use an 18350 on my .3 ohm build. I tried to explain and he wouldnt listen. He went to a "cloud chasing" competition and the winning build was...get this...point ZERO four. Not 0.4......0.04ohms metered. And he was jealous. I vape off his crazy quadmicro nastiness and every time is way to hot to inhale and horrible flavor i cant stand.

So i may sound like a zealot but im actually a subohm vaper. I like to vape between 0.5 and 2 ohms depending on the atomizer and how i feel. Definitely not any lower. I dont see how you could want to go lower but thats me.

The point is....i did the legwork. I read and read and read some more! And i triple check my builds and dont do crazy builds. Safety first, clouds second.

Plus ive gotten over chasing clouds and now the flavor snd sheer enjoyment of vaping is why i do it. Sometimes i get a big cloud but its not my main goal.

//rant over//

Exactly. And after he talked to you about it, that guy probably signed up for ECF and posted in the new members forum "hey, I'm trying to build a .04 ohm setup like I saw at the cloud chasing competition. How do I wrap that coil?" and when someone asks what battery he's using, it's a Trustfire 18350 ICR. That's some of the kind of thing I'm seeing, and why I bumped the thread.

P.S. - he probably had 4 other newbies chime in with ill-advised builds before someone knowledgeable said it was a bad idea.

 

[Asbestos4004]

Why isn't charging an ego in a car or off a laptop making the kind of headlines sub ohming is? Those are the ones that blow up. Where's the list of 1 handed, faceless people that built a riciculous low ohm coil and used a crappy battery? When something gets hot enough, the human brain says to drop it. Why act like these folks asking questions are so inferior to those who joined this forum earlier? Helping people like we were helped is one thing....acting like the Gods of all things vape related is another. Oh, and yes, a ProVari is, in fact, worth the money.

 

[krisjay]

I sometimes wonder when I state I'm new to this for the most part, I get replies talkng bout coil building and things like that. For the most part I have no idea what you are talking about, luckily I am not the adventure type. A nice slow learning process works for me.

 

[novamatt]

Why isn't charging an ego in a car or off a laptop making the kind of headlines sub ohming is? Those are the ones that blow up. Where's the list of 1 handed, faceless people that built a riciculous low ohm coil and used a crappy battery? When something gets hot enough, the human brain says to drop it. Why act like these folks asking questions are so inferior to those who joined this forum earlier? Helping people like we were helped is one thing....acting like the Gods of all things vape related is another. Oh, and yes, a ProVari is, in fact, worth the money.

Battery safety is battery safety, and if I see someone mention charging a battery unattended, I'll definitely let them know that it's a bad idea and exactly why it's a bad idea (and I did so earlier today when someone mentioned charging batteries overnight).

However, we don't see several threads a day on the newbie forum that say something like "hey, my friend said I'd get really big clouds if I charge my ego battery in my car for 3 days straight... How do I rewire the plug so I can do 3 of them at once?" We DO see several threads a day that say things like "I don't know how many ohms it is, I but I don't need a tester because I just build simple dual coil setups with 22 guage wire," or "I'm running a .4 ohm coil on a pink 18350 battery and I kind of like it, but how do I get bigger clouds?"

No one is saying that anyone is inferior, especially based on a join date. What we're saying here is that people are trying to do things that they 1) don't have the knowledge to do safely, and 2) don't even know enough to understand that what they're doing is/can be unsafe. The problem we're discussing isn't about join date, it's about uninformed vapers attempting what should be expert builds.

 

[Asbestos4004]

I'm sorry, I must have misread the actual title of the thread.

 

[Susan~S]

I then proceed to warn those new "sub-ohmer's" of the potential risks and usually suggest smaller coils on a lower AWG wire or even ribbon wire (and for the sake of it) twisted wire. I let people do what people do - and experiment - with the proper precautions (which I've broken quite a few times accidentally). I tell them usually that their safety is in their own hands and by delving into something as sensitive as sub-ohm vaping, anything AND everything can go wrong IF they refuse to check, check, and recheck their intended setup. Do I shun them away? No, as doing so may inevitably drive people to give up on vaping and go back to smoking.

I agree shuning them is not the answer. My concern is multi-fold. An irresponsible sub-ohmer may not only be putting himself/herself at risk. What about others around them? In their home, in their workplace, in public spaces. And then what happens when something really goes wrong -- people hurt or possibly killed? A house burns down? What happens when that gets splashed across the media outlets? What happens when local/state/federal governments to start enacting laws that infringe on my right to vape -- all because e-cigarettes are now deemed to be unsafe? I don't know what the answer is. All I know is that we can't ignore this problem in the hopes it will go away.

Even though ive been learning for under a month, I still read post from people who going to sub Ohm and think to myself. '' If you need to ask that then you shouldn't be doing sub Ohm coils.''

I have sadly witnessed on here a seemingly advanced vaper, suggest to a person wanting to progress from an ego, that they should buy a mech, a rebuildable, have a bit of a practice building coils, then go for a sub Ohm build.

Yes, we've all seen those posts. I've considered flagging them and putting in my notes to the moderator something such as "inappropriate and potentially dangerous advise given xyz" Let the moderators make the final call.

 

[novamatt]

I'm sorry, I must have misread the actual title of the thread.

I'm sorry, did you actually READ the thread? Here's the first post, maybe you should take another look. The OP is clearly concerned about people doing things that they don't have the knowledge to do safely, not with how uncool they are because they're new to the forum. I've bolded the important parts for you.

I have to say something. I see a bad moon rising for us as a community. I keep seeing more and more new comers to vaping that show up on the boards asking on how to improve their tricro coil, micro, nano, uber sub ohm build, with no idea what they are doing. They don't know the amp limit of their battery or even why that's important. They just know they saw some guy on YouTube making clouds in his garage and they want to do the same.

i used to think people were over reacting when some guy would show up asking about subohming, ad the entire thread would ALL CAPS battery safety advice. But it's getting more and more common that new vapers are jumping straight into .2 ohm builds and no idea how serious of a risk it is.

If the FDA and big brother have their sights set on the vaping community now, just wait till "young man disfigured by electronic cigarette" is on the morning news.

What can we do about this? Is there anything? I see 'sign this petition' threads day in and day out, but what can we do about this. Let's kick it around as I feel it is certainly thread worthy.

 

[Asbestos4004]

I absolutely read it...and I agree with it. I don't think people should be expected to come into vaping with all the experience and answers. I think we need to answer their questions and do our best to pass on what we've learned. That can be done without coming off like a self righteous messiah. If you actually read this thread from a new guys point of view, you'll hear a lot of belittlement and superiority. That'll make people quit reading and quit asking questions. Everyone should absolutely be made aware of what's safe and what's not. The ridiculous questions aren't going to stop coming in...vaping is blowing up so new people will be joining this forum in droves. If you make them feel like an idiot within 5 minutes of them getting here, they're going to leave. Then what did they learn?

 

[novamatt]

I absolutely read it...and I agree with it. I don't think people should be expected to come into vaping with all the experience and answers. I think we need to answer their questions and do our best to pass on what we've learned. That can be done without coming off like a self righteous messiah. If you actually read this thread from a new guys point of view, you'll hear a lot of belittlement and superiority. That'll make people quit reading and quit asking questions. Everyone should absolutely be made aware of what's safe and what's not. The ridiculous questions aren't going to stop coming in...vaping is blowing up so new people will be joining this forum in droves. If you make them feel like an idiot within 5 minutes of them getting here, they're going to leave. Then what did they learn?

I agree that new people don't have all the answers, that they should feel free to ask questions, and that we should help them learn how to do what they want to do safely. And that these posts aren't always handled in the best manner. I'd guess that most of the people who have responded here feel the same way. That's why we're discussing it.

I think what you're seeing as "belittlement and superiority" is most likely frustration - for the most part, the people we're discussing tend to brush off gentle battery safety comments or ignore them completely, and get angry with less gentle ones. That's especially frustrating to see over and over again when you're concerned about other people's well-being. And even more so when your safety information is getting drowned out by a chorus of similarly uneducated beginners suggesting things that are even less safe.

I brought this thread back because I wanted to have a discussion about how to safely help them do what they want to do (because they're going to do it with or without our help), with enough knowledge to make an educated decision about the risks they're taking. I thought maybe people here would put their heads together and come up with better ways to respond to these posts. Do you have any suggestions in that department? Did you want to add to the discussion here beyond just telling the people who are worried that we're being "self righteous messiahs?"

 

[Asbestos4004]

Thats ok, pal. I'll just continue fielding their questions as they arise. I like to linger amongst the common folk.

 

[Susan~S]

I absolutely read it...and I agree with it. I don't think people should be expected to come into vaping with all the experience and answers. I think we need to answer their questions and do our best to pass on what we've learned. That can be done without coming off like a self righteous messiah. If you actually read this thread from a new guys point of view, you'll hear a lot of belittlement and superiority. That'll make people quit reading and quit asking questions. Everyone should absolutely be made aware of what's safe and what's not. The ridiculous questions aren't going to stop coming in...vaping is blowing up so new people will be joining this forum in droves. If you make them feel like an idiot within 5 minutes of them getting here, they're going to leave. Then what did they learn?

I understand what you are saying, and I agree. What I hope you can appreciate is that for 6+ months, the same "Veterans" are on the sidelines trying their best (night and day) to give sound advise and point people in the right direction. And for every "sound" post they make there are 10+ posters right behind them giving "unsound" advise and encouraging "reckless behavior". They are tired. They are frustrated. And the masses keep rolling in. Right now, there is no end in sight and there is no plan. That is what this thread is all about. What can we do to make this better for everyone?

 

[raspberryblu]

Please don't think I condone the use of a battery at or over its advertised operating current. In fact, it would be completely idiotic to do so. Safety factors are included because on the off chance (six sigma manufacturing is what most adhere to) you get that one of those 3 in a million defective batteries, it still wont fail under the advertised load. While those odds are pretty good, when it comes to a battery possibly blowing up in my face, I wont take them.

*I am sure some manufacturers don't apply 1.33, however most that I have encountered do.[/QUOTE]

This. I build my own coils for my protanks. The lowest *I* feel comfortable with is 1.6 on my regulated mods. I only use Sony VTC4 batteries and I have intellicharger I4 charger. My personal comfort zone is one of safety overkill. I must check the ohms at least 3 times before I take that first draw, and I always verify with the ohms calculator. I have to make sure. Perhaps a bit OCD, since I already know that a 1.8 coil at 6w is going to be fine with the VTC4's.

I'm a network administrator for a Japanese Auto maker here in the states. They greatly understate their towing capacity on their trucks simply because you can always count on some ..... to push the envelope. I'm no battery expert, but I would think a trusted manufacturer such as sony would do the same thing (not that I advocate testing that theory).

Even the best and most trusted manufacturers can have a dud, which is why mech mods kinda scare me. I know there are no guarantees with a regulated mod, but I think it does improve my chances of avoiding a major melt down should an issue arise. I know I can sub ohm on one of my mods, but I just wouldn't be able to enjoy it because the fear would always be there. I guess I'm lucky because I get a satisfying vape on coils at 1.6-2.5 ohms.

 

[optsmk]

No, there is no bad moon rising for us as a community. There are only people that aren't so bright. Everyday someone does something stupid to put themselves in harms way.

Here is a true story.

I knew a couple that were married and had two children. The husband wanted a gun in the house for protection, so he figured he would hide it in one of his children's closets. Well .......n if the older kid didn't find it and ended up accidentally fatally shooting his little brother. They then had another child to replace the one they had lost and gave him the same name as his dead brother. Life went on for a while until they moved to a new house. Once again the father thought he would protect his family. But he didn't want to be stupid and buy another gun. So he solved the security problem by putting locking bars on all the windows and doors. One night the house caught on fire. They all ran to the front door to get out, but they did not have the key and could not get back to the bedroom to get the keys. needless to say all four of them are dead now. Nobody really knows if they even thought about getting the keys from the bedroom, it was just assumed that they tried because the keys were found in the bedroom. But all four bodies were found burnt at the front door.

So, do we ban guns? do we ban bars for doors and windows? or do we just live and let die? Because obviously we cannot stop people from doing what they do.

Oh, and I swear that's a true story. Sad but true.

 

[CasketWeaver]

I agree shuning them is not the answer. My concern is multi-fold. An irresponsible sub-ohmer may not only be putting himself/herself at risk. What about others around them? In their home, in their workplace, in public spaces. And then what happens when something really goes wrong -- people hurt or possibly killed? A house burns down? What happens when that gets splashed across the media outlets? What happens when local/state/federal governments to start enacting laws that infringe on my right to vape -- all because e-cigarettes are now deemed to be unsafe? I don't know what the answer is. All I know is that we can't ignore this problem in the hopes it will go away.

That is why for the most part I highly DISCOURAGE new vapers to begin sub-ohm building. As the lowest I'll go is .13 Ohms and that is pushing it - even on the high and mighty Sony VCT4's and VCT5's. Can I push it past 30 amps? Absolutely - but I think what the sub-ohm culture needs to do is EDUCATE on the SAFETY aspect first - then teach those who wish to know about the benefits of sub-ohming (if any). Also as stated many of times (I can't count that high) "Improper set up and poor knowledge of even the basic fundamentals of Ohm's Law can result in catastrophic consequences. Perform these set ups AT YOUR OWN RISK!" Usually followed by a disclaimer stating that the person performing such a task is responsible for their own safety, equipment, and others around them if something goes wrong. And we know as people - Murphy's Law - if it can go wrong, it will.

But yes, even posting the safety warnings in the forums isn't good enough - let them ask - BE HUMBLE and HONEST - and TRY to talk to them about the safety aspects FIRST. You can count your stars that you will find someone with my personality and when you tell me NOT to do something - I usually get down on my knees and pray for hours on end - and do it anyway. Do I believe the sub-ohm culture has brought impending doom on the vaping community? No - but those who refuse to listen to the warnings of the wise will.

I really was considering going below the .1 Ohm limit - maybe if I grab that car battery out of the garage... I could get down to .00001 Ohms! Great IDEA! Maybe I'll enjoy inhaling FIRE as e-liquid CAN and WILL combust if overheated! Don't believe me? Try installing fresh coils into a juiced atomizer and hit the fire button - oh you'll get fire alright. As the unvaporized juice near the posts will usually sputter and catch fire.

 

[Fizzpop]

That is why for the most part I highly DISCOURAGE new vapers to begin sub-ohm building. As the lowest I'll go is .13 Ohms and that is pushing it

0.13 Ohms? Jesus tap-dancing Christ, you've got to be kidding me. By any reasonable measure that is a dead short. You are out of your mind.

 

[optsmk]

0.13 Ohms? Jesus tap-dancing Christ, you've got to be kidding me. By any reasonable measure that is a dead short. You are out of your mind.

Haha, maybe he means 1.3?

 

[iamAuz]

.13 that is just not safe.... cant be

count me out of this super low sub ohming.... the lowest i will go is .7 and im just happy with it.

 

[KYBLUE]

'.............................it'll freeze like that forever.

'.............................you'll shoot your eye out.

'.............................you'll grow hair on your palm.

'.............................you'll blow your face off.

It'll surely be the death of us all.

Enjoy if you can. Try to control others if you can't.

 

[CasketWeaver]

0.13 Ohms? Jesus tap-dancing Christ, you've got to be kidding me. By any reasonable measure that is a dead short. You are out of your mind.

.13 that is just not safe.... cant be
count me out of this super low sub ohming.... the lowest i will go is .7 and im just happy with it.

Haha, maybe he means 1.3?

@Fizzpop & @iamAuz - I never once said it was a good idea. But I DO know the potential danger of it. Before I build and say "Yep, Donkey, that'll do." I usually run the Ohm's Law calculator against the projected build. When I run it, I ALWAYS run it in WCS (worst case scenario) of the 4.2V MAX output (on a battery that will ONLY deliver 3.7V). When I run it I avoid hitting the battery limit as much as possible. BUT I also know the warnings if / when something goes wrong. And again, I ACCEPT responsibility IF / WHEN something goes wrong. I also acknowledge that EVEN at a max output of 4.2V - that will quickly drop on a 1 - 5 second fire. Which is why I also PULSE my coils on a fresh battery to bring the voltage down. The numbers I come up with WHEN I do my math:

---WCS METHOD---
Volts: 4.2V
Resistance: .13 Ohms
Amps Req'd: 32.308A
Watts: 135.692W
Battery: Sony US18650VCT4 2100MaH (30A)

---(SEMI)SAFE DELIVERY METHOD---
Volts: 3.7V
Amps Req'd: 28.462A
Resistance: .13 Ohms
Watts: 105.308W
Battery: Sony US18650VCT4 2100MaH (30A)

Now with the numbers produced we see that yes - at 4.2V (WCS) that I have broken the 'Continual Amp Draw Limit' of the battery itself. But that battery will PEAK the output at 4.2V - it won't CONTINUALLY output power at 4.2V. After I get over that peak - the 3.7V output against a .13 Ohm coil is perfectly acceptable. Although it comes close to the 30A limit of the VCT4/VCT5 - that battery shrugs it off like it's nothing. Plus as the battery discharges - the voltage, wattage, and amperage will go down. Also as the coil ages - the resistance will increase bringing it further into the safe zone. Is it still dangerous? Absolutely. But as far as I'm concerned - I read my own disclaimer and the disclaimer of others - I signed the contract and I accepted the responsibility. Will I go below that resistance? 2 words for you: 'Hell no'. The sole reason I brought it to light was because I know my equipments limitations. The biggest piece of equipment is the batteries that provide the power to fire your coil(s). Now onto other things.

@optsmk - No sir, I meant .13 Ohms:

Dual Nano Coil - 24G Kanthal A1 - 5 Wraps on 18G Needle - .13 Ohms - Patriot V1.2 RDA - Cotton Wick - Firing on a V3 Flip Mechanical Mod

 

[ConradM]

IMO there's way to much fuss over sub-ohming. It's not that big of a deal when you consider that .8 is sub ohm and any battery can handle 5 amps. It's when you start to go below .5 that you really need to think about battery safety.