Why is ECF full of so many people against subohming?

[Baditude]

Not once have i seen an imr battery malfunction. Nor have i ever heard of an imr battery malfunctioning while in use.

Maybe not in your own personal experience. IMR batteries can and have exploded. The battery below is an AW IMR 18490 battery. It looks like it has exploded to me. And yes, it was an authentic AW battery because it was purchased from Provape, an authorized AW dealer that sells authentic AW batteries.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/472990-hi-all-shaken-up-provari-aw-18490-battery-owner.html

IMR batteries don't have to "explode" to cause physical harm or damage. The below scenario was the result of an AW battery which vented gas hot enough to start a fire.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-information/190146-pictures-serious-battery-failure-imr-18650-a.html

Sure, these are not Sony 30 amp batteries, but that's not the point here. AW IMR batteries have the deserved reputation of being the safest batteries that you can buy if used appropriately. Even our ECF Forum Administrator and resident battery authority has said so himself. Rolygate has written more about the safe use of mod batteries than you will ever learn. "Our advice is that the best and the safer choice of battery for APVs is the AW IMR Li-Mn rechargeable."- Rechargeable Batteries

Even a Sony 30 amp battery will vent and possibly explode if it is dead shorted. It is irresponsible to bluntly state that ANY battery is safe to use if used in a fashion that the battery was not designed for. These batteries were not originally intended for what we are using them for.

In fact, I have read that Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony, and Samsung, don't even like the fact that we're using these batteries because they were not intended for single cell, unprotected use in any device. The fact that they're available can be attributed to modders of flashlights, pen lasers, and bicycle electronics. A demand formed around those markets and it was filled by various folks, and then e-cigs came along and the demand skyrocketed.

These batteries were never intended to be pushed to the limits like sub-ohm vapers do.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

If you use a juice with 10% flavoring, and use 5 time the mL of juice when you sub-ohm, you're inhaling 5 times the amount of the flavorings in the juice. Come on it's not rocket science.....

If you drink shots at 20 proof, and someone else drinks the same number of shots at 100 proof, who do you want to drive home?___

I kinda get your point, but it's a dumb point. The flavor is different; overall juice consumption is moot.

Especially if you DIY the amount of juice you use is kinda irrelevant. People like what they like. And I'll tell ya this: If you took a nice scitch and watered it down beyond a touch, it wouldn't taste good. Similarly, if you condensed some wine it wouldn't taste good.

Just get over your clever zero-sum vape analysis. It's dumb. The emoticons aren't magically making it clever, either.

Some people like light beer; some like microbrew. Some like dry wine; some like sweet. Some like vodka and others like scotch. Some people even like gin. Some people like big water pipes and some like a "cigarette".

/

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Yeah...but I'm a 55 year old retired engineer......rather try to use finese than brute force. More elegant, safer, and my battery lasts for hours and hours with the same vape at the end of all that time as the very first one. But....whatever...

err...

20 watt mod working 15 to 18 watts.

that's 'cause you're using a regulated device. They are all like that.

then again the duty cycle on those makes the vape quality suck, unless you're running something high-end like a Provari.

 

[edyle]

Quote Originally Posted by edyle View Post
So is there anybody against subohm vaping?

I Am.

But let me Preface that.

I'm against people Sub-Ohming that Do Not Have an Understanding of how to Apply Ohms Law, how to use a DMM and have a Good Understanding of a Batteries Amp Limits.

I am Also Strongly Against B&M Shops that will build a Coil as Low as the Customer Wants. And then send them on their way to use their e-Bay purchased Trustfires in a Mech Mod.

I dunno; overall that sounds like a "No" to me.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Tell you guys what, as someone who's not old nor young, who doesn't "chase clouds" but who appreciates sub ohm, who likes mechs after a stint in VV/VW and eGo:

I find the cloud-chasing kids no more annoying than the smug "I think I know it all 'cause I've been around", condescending older folks.

Doesn't matter how long you've been alive; doesn't matter if you're used to knowing more about everything (other than computers and tech, maybe) than young people. Vaping has only been around a few years and we're all pioneers.

Let's let everyone like what they like without snide, passive-aggressive comments, from BOTH sides. So long as it's safe and so long as it's not detrimental to the community it should be All Good.

 

[edyle]

Cloud chasing is vaping.

Oh; you're saying that clound chasing is vaping

but vaping is not cloud chasing;

word tricks.

He referred specifically to cloud chasing only, not vaping generally.

 

[GeorgeWachsmuth]

err...

that's 'cause you're using a regulated device. They are all like that.

then again the duty cycle on those makes the vape quality suck, unless you're running something high-end like a Provari.

Sorry..no duty cycle...flat as a Provari..SX200 chip....less money too. And my point is still valid for a non PWM mod regardless....

 

[WattWick]

Yes...I have been experimenting like a mad scientist...did sub...low...medium..etc....I am currently getting fantastic taste, warmth,density with very careful wicking, proper airflow, coil pacement and the right RDA.....and I'm doing it over 2.2 ohms ....as high as 2.8 with a single coil and a 20 watt mod working 15 to 18 watts. Seriously....

That's a great way of doing it. The funny part about sub-ohm cloud chasing (to me) is that people seem to have some knowledge of Ohms law and heat production, but little understanding. It's always about ever lower resistance.

I pull up to 1500 watts from batteries to power my RC helis. And that's fairly "small" helis. Some pull 10x+ that amount. All from batteries. So... needless to say I'm not really impressed by people believing they're pushing some kind of limit of battery power. I see it more as pushing the limit of misunderstanding battery power. There are many ways to skin this battery powered watt-chasing cat. Low resistance is probably the least efficient and the one with the most finite limits.

 

[edyle]

I think an important point is "accidents"

MAYBE pulsing @ 30a is cool on s VTC4/5. maybe. Likely not in the long run, but MAYBE.

However, take what happened with my Nemie last night, on a VTC5 @0.4:

The spring actually snapped off a piece, and the little rice-pin fell out, and when I unscrewed the bottom cap the assembly completely fell apart. The bottom firing pin grounded against the body and stuck there due to electrical conduction. i.e. the coil started firing continuously, and I couldn't get it to stop for maybe (a surprised, panicky) 30sec. And, yes the coil and cotton caught on fire. If that had happened on a 0.11 build my batt could have definitely seriously had a Fn meltdown. That was not when I was firing it, but when I opened the cap to change the battery.

That happened last night, with no warning, with my 2 year odl daughter about 2 ft away.

I don't understand; you opened the cap (top cap or bottom cap) and somehow the battery shorted out? I don't understand; once you open the cap, isn't that going to disconnect the battery///
oh, maybe you opened the bottom cap with the mod upside down, and a piece of metal fell on top of the negative side of the battery, connecting it to the body, and fired the coil ?

 

[Baditude]

double post

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Sorry..no duty cycle...flat as a Provari..SX200 chip....less money too. And my point is still valid for a non PWM mod regardless....

my point is that a regulated device preforms like that (maintaining voltage)

has nothing to do with your coil

 

[Baditude]

that's 'cause you're using a regulated device. They are all like that.

then again the duty cycle on those makes the vape quality suck, unless you're running something high-end like a Provari.

Sorry..no duty cycle...flat as a Provari..SX200 chip....less money too. And my point is still valid for a non PWM mod regardless....

George got you on this one. You just proved you don't know what you are talking about. The DNA and Provari both have a flat line on an oscelloscope.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/variable-voltage-apv-discussion/488840-rattlesnake-effect-why-cheapo-vv-exception-itaste-mvp-dont-vape-same-provari-dna20d.html

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

George got you on this one. You just proved you don't know what you are talking about. The DNA and Provari both have a flat line on an oscelloscope.

I said LIKE a provari, and that flat line ain't actually flat

that he never said what VV he was using, and I assumed a 33.3, is irrelevant. Certainly doesn't prove " I don't know what I'm talking about" in terms of what this thread is actually (and what his post should have been) about.

but thanks for playing

------

again: the volt regulation you get on a VV has nothing to say about the pros or cons of sub-ohm or conventional res; his point is a (condescending) red herring

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

I don't understand; you opened the cap (top cap or bottom cap) and somehow the battery shorted out? I don't understand; once you open the cap, isn't that going to disconnect the battery///
oh, maybe you opened the bottom cap with the mod upside down, and a piece of metal fell on top of the negative side of the battery, connecting it to the body, and fired the coil ?

the negative pin came unscrewed and it shorted against the body, getting stuck due to the conduction

because the pin came out, the threaded section of the switch didn't unscrew -- the rice pin fell out and the button just came off, leaving the bulk of the switch still inside the mod -- so the firing pin was trapped in a cavity between that and the battery

not upside down

When the bottom cap came off, the spring and rice pin shot out, leaving the inner switch blocking the battery cavity and the loose firing pin stuck between the battery's negative terminal and the wall of the mod.

 

[GeorgeWachsmuth]

my point is that a regulated device preforms like that (maintaining voltage)

has nothing to do with your coil

Well...yeah, it does.....Subbing is done unregulated and directly off a battery because of the coil's low resistance...the battery wears out quickly....your vape is not consistent..its a poor way to improve your vaping experience overall. Engineers typically try to think things out and utilze tools and techniques that are more efficient and consistent. This is why I tried the brute force method and reasoned out a safer, tighter approach to a tasty,dense, cloudy vaping experience using higher resistance, more carefully thought out builds and a regulated mod.

 

[Baditude]

I said LIKE a provari, and that flat line ain't actually flat

that he never said what VV he was using, and I assumed a 33.3, is irrelevant. Certainly doesn't prove " I don't know what I'm talking about" in terms of what this thread is actually (and what his post should have been) about.

but thanks for playing

------

again: the volt regulation you get on a VV has nothing to say about the pros or cons sub-ohm or conventional res; his point is a (condescending) red herring

SX200 chip was a clue he is using a DNA mod. Whether it is relevant to the thread or not, you challenged a point that he made, and he corrected you. Man up when you are wrong.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

the negative pin came unscrewed and it shorted against the body, getting stuck due to the conduction

because the pin came out, the threaded section of the switch didn't unscrew -- the rice pin fell out and the button just came off, leaving the bulk of the switch still inside the mod -- so the firing pin was trapped in a cavity between that and the battery

not upside down

When the bottom cap came off, the spring and rice pin shot out, leaving the inner switch blocking the battery cavity and the loose firing pin stuck between the battery's negative terminal and the wall of the mod.

the point being that that sucked but was not a catastrophe, 'cause I was at 0.4 and not something asinine like "0.11"

 

[edyle]

That's a great way of doing it. The funny part about sub-ohm cloud chasing (to me) is that people seem to have some knowledge of Ohms law and heat production, but little understanding. It's always about ever lower resistance.

I pull up to 1500 watts from batteries to power my RC helis. And that's fairly "small" helis. Some pull 10x+ that amount. All from batteries. So... needless to say I'm not really impressed by people believing they're pushing some kind of limit of battery power. I see it more as pushing the limit of misunderstanding battery power. There are many ways to skin this battery powered watt-chasing cat. Low resistance is probably the least efficient and the one with the most finite limits.

Now that's a situation where you have to use a battery; you can't operate a remote controlled helicoper needing hundreds of watts by wiring it to the regular ac power outlet; you have to use batteries.
With vaping on the other hand, if you want to run hundreds of watts on you fog machine, you might as well plug into the wall, and save your batteries for when you have to go walk the dog.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

SX200 chip was a clue he is using a DNA mod. Whether it is relevant to the thread or not, you challenged a point that he made, and he corrected you. Man up when you are wrong.

so, you're saying just cause he said "a 20w mod" I should know that it doesn't have a lame duty cycle?

sure then: he totally got me
:\

 

[Baditude]

so, you're saying just cause he said "a 20w mod" I should know that it doesn't have a lame duty cycle?

sure then: he totally got me
:\

Yup. EVERYONE knows a 20 watt mod means its a DNA mod. Geepers.