Too Many Jan Join Dates Asking About Sub Ohm

[K_Tech]

I have to say that the idea of some sort of test-based ranking/posting limit system irks me because it seems exclusionary and it can possibly keep some people from asking questions they need to (if I understand the principle as previously discussed).

I fully agree with the "new member" post count principle, and wholly understand the process of becoming verified, but to otherwise restrict the free flow of information can, in my opinion, end up hurting more people in the long run.

The only thing worse than a stupid question is one that is left unasked.

The whole sub ohm deal looks like elitism to me, which appeals to a younger crowd. "OHHH LOOK AT WHAT I CAN DO!" is really the only message coming off of this. It stinks of immaturity, elitism and asshattery.

It's nice to know that in my 50th decade on the planet I'm still capable of being an immature, elitist ....... Thanks for the compliment, I think.

 

[Nataani]

I am a reasonably intelligent person, who comes from a electronics engineering background and has spent more hours reading about vaping techniques and tricks than I care to count. I am a "cloud chaser". Why? I have no idea really... I enjoy it, simple as that. I do find that sub ohm builds produce greater flavor, denser/warmer vapor, and provide overall more satisfying vape - for me.

That said, do I sub ohm vape all the time? No. Do I go around blowing huge clouds in public? No way. I leave the cloud chasing at home, or with friends at the local vape store. When the younger folks walk in, I tend to put it away and screw on the protank. I am probably one of the minority of sub ohm vapers who very simply believe that cloud chasing is a really horrible image for the vaping community, and thus should be kept out of the public eye.

I cringe when I hear "kids" at the local vape shop buying wire or RDAs. I watched one buy a new RDA and then do what must have been a very poor job of wiring it, because the coil popped in his face on his first draw. On another occasion she bought her wire then asked the owner why her mod wasnt working, she had the battery in upside down. Yet another spent about a hundred dollars on a mech mod kit (two sigelei batteries) and an RDA, he sat down and fumbled with wire for about five minutes before asking me (who had just started rebuilding a protank head) if I could help him wire his RDA. I had no problems with this, right up until he said he wanted it at .1 ohm. I better spent the time explaining battery safety and repercussions to him, while building showing him how to build a 1.0 ohm setup.

Even as someone who came into this with a wealth of electronics knowledge, I found the learning curve steep. The new folks who decide to simply jump into the deep end scare me. The young folk jumping in the deep end terrify me.

However, there is something to be remembered in all this, no matter how much we might cringe at it.

Kids will be kids, they will do what they want whether we regulate it or not. Whether we warn them or not. Whether we hide knowledge or not.

As always, the best recourse with youth is to educate. Long drawn out warnings and lectures have little effect. Instead, keep the safety talk simple, with a great focus on the repercussions, then explain how to do things safely.

The other misunderstanding of engineering concepts I read.
Often said.."you'll be only drawing 7-8 amps and your battery is rated for 10-12 amps"...
Any factor of safety is thrown to the winds...(google the term)
If a battery is rated at 30 amps, a factor of safety of 3 (not an extreme by any stretch) the highest operating amperage would be 10 amps. When you see a road bridge sign 10,000 lbs Limit, do you think the engineers figure it would collapse with 10,001 lbs or they figure it will support 30,00 lbs so limit the trucks to 10,000 lbs. Your car tires are rated for maximum inflation, do they blow up if you go a pound or two over...if so I haven't heard about all the explosive tires, when the max is figured a factor of safety is figured in.

I am confused about this particular post. You imply that a 10A battery is unsafe at 7-8A. Then go on to explain why manufacturers apply safety factors to products. All manufacturers, specifying any value pertaining to a "under load" use, will include a safety factor. Battery manufacturers are no exception, they arent going to say something can discharge at 30A when they actually mean 10A. In fact, when they say 30A and use a safety factor of 1.33 which is standard* in the electronics industry, it means that it can actually handle up to 40A.

Please don't think I condone the use of a battery at or over its advertised operating current. In fact, it would be completely idiotic to do so. Safety factors are included because on the off chance (six sigma manufacturing is what most adhere to) you get that one of those 3 in a million defective batteries, it still wont fail under the advertised load. While those odds are pretty good, when it comes to a battery possibly blowing up in my face, I wont take them.

*I am sure some manufacturers don't apply 1.33, however most that I have encountered do.

 

[BillyWJ]

just saw another post in the new members forum. this was about getting into wrapping coils. not sub-ohm. not cloud-chasing.

the question was one that IMHO the answer should be known before getting into building coils.

perhaps a good way to address this would be to collect all these questions (redact usernames if nec) , provide answers, then create a sticky.

lumping all of the "irksome" questions into a single post/thread might have the benefit of pointing out the nature of the problem and do more good than, for example, what the mods asked Baditude to contribute to. by that, i mean that the form of presentation may ring home clearer to the average newcomer than the typical "sticky" which often get glossed over. (it would, of course need to be heavily moderated so it doesn't "drift") and the answers should be written with a sense of non-deprecating humor, so it doesn't come across as didactic.



based on what i've seen in the last week or two, it shouldn't take long to acquire a couple hundred "problem" questions



that's my

now, i'm broke

Or, is it ECF's responsibility to have stickies that are obvious, like "SUB OHM go HERE", where more stickies and links to Baditude blogs can educate them without members having to spend hours walking people through it. I had a small epiphany today, that perhaps the members - with the best intentions in the world - are shouldering too much responsibility. It's also ECF's responsibility to decide if they want advanced topics like Sub Ohming to be allowed in the new poster forum, or link them elsewhere once they get their 5 posts in.

 

[StarsAndBars]

I have and I am not saying anything you in particular said was incorrect in any way I am saying that people come here to discuss and learn more about vaping. There is no need to limit people from asking questions or discussing any issue that they may have a question about. Obviously the people that have posted in this thread are passionate about safety, I am just suggesting that instead of discussing how to discuss safety issues with new people Go discuss safety issues with new people. Obviously the people posting on this thread know more about vaping than some guy that just signed up for this forum this month.

In many ways I want to agree with what you are saying. I have two issues with what you have said.

First, you have assumed that the signup date for the forums indicates the amount of knowledge that that person has. I agree that for a lot of people that is the case, but for many, the amount of knowledge that they have has absolutely no correlation with the sign up date or number of posts. Many people can rack up a lot of posts of a long amount of time and still not understand the safety aspects of particular part of vaping (sub ohm as an example), and others may have all the knowledge they need and are experts but have not signed up until now. I think we need to understand the individual before judgment is made.

Second, threads like this are important in my opinion. There are many ways to talk about issues (including safety). If we have a consistent message and a consistent method that has been proven to work then it is important that we follow that methodology and introduce safety and other vaping aspects accurately and with one voice. We will never agree on everything, but there are some things that most of us can agree on.

I think it is important for us to figure out how to introduce things properly before we all do our own thing and start confusing people.

Those of us who have been reading these forums for a while know who we respect and who has the knowledge that we value, but the newer people to these forums don't have the benefit of knowing who is answering properly and who is not. A consistent answer and methodology will be helpful for new members. Unfortunately, many are coming here after trying something that they don't even understand was dangerous, and we need to find a good way to tell them why what they did was unsafe and how to make it safe. These types of threads help us to figure out what to say if we use them for that purpose.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do want to make sure any advice I give is accurate and delivered in such a way as to let the person I am responding to understand that I am trying to mentor without sounding condescending.

There ya go.

 

[K_Tech]

Or, is it ECF's responsibility to have stickies that are obvious, like "SUB OHM go HERE", where more stickies and links to Baditude blogs can educate them without members having to spend hours walking people through it. I had a small epiphany today, that perhaps the members - with the best intentions in the world - are shouldering too much responsibility. It's also ECF's responsibility to decide if they want advanced topics like Sub Ohming to be allowed in the new poster forum, or link them elsewhere once they get their 5 posts in.

Not really. ECF has no "responsibility" to really do anything beyond being a forum for vapers to gather and share information. They choose to be a responsibly monitored and administered forum, but these folks are volunteers, not paid employees.

 

[StarsAndBars]

Something else to consider. Battery ratings are assumed that the battery is in peak operating condition. It is in the interest of the manufacturer to put the largest number possible on their battery, so they tend not to leave them in a hot car, or use them for a few weeks before testing.

I think I'd rather build in a margin for safety than assume a battery will exceed its rating.

Seems like a rather random point to make but I was trying to quote a particular part of another quote and it didn't work out so well.

 

[BillyWJ]

Not really. ECF has no "responsibility" to really do anything beyond being a forum for vapers to gather and share information. They choose to be a responsibly monitored and administered forum, but these folks are volunteers, not paid employees.

That's my point.

 

[K_Tech]

Something else to consider. Battery ratings are assumed that the battery is in peak operating condition. It is in the interest of the manufacturer to put the largest number possible on their battery, so they tend not to leave them in a hot car, or use them for a few weeks before testing.

I think I'd rather build in a margin for safety than assume a battery will exceed its rating.

Seems like a rather random point to make but I was trying to quote a particular part of another quote and it didn't work out so well.

Bigger numbers sell better - like those 3,000 watt subwoofer amps at the flea market, lol.

Personally - not to drift off topic - I like a LOT of headroom in a current rating. I don't personally feel comfortable pushing redline all the time.

 

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Probably going to get flamed on this but the libertarian in me can't resist.

I feel this entire conversation is silly. It lacks truth. Are you really concerned with stupid people who do stupid things and their safety? Or are you concerned that when a stupid person does something stupid, that somehow it will cause the "community" at large some form of trouble, and therefore threaten your good time?

Every product in the world can be misused. Worry about yourself and help others when you can. The rest will sort itself out.

My wife was yelling at the dog tonight because he was sleeping very close to the wood stove, I told her to leave him be, she said he will burn himself, I replied, he just may, but he will only do it once.

 

[shorestyle]

What makes you think making a sub-ohm section unavailable to new members before they make xxx amount of posts going to do?

I'll tell you.

Make everything worse.

As it stands, at least when these people making stupid posts about wanting to sub ohm vape without ever trying vaping before they can get bombarded with members telling them NO. If they can't even access information about sub-ohming I guarantee you they will turn a cold shoulder to ECF.

 

[StarsAndBars]

Probably going to get flamed on this but the libertarian in me can't resist.

I feel this entire conversation is silly. It lacks truth. Are you really concerned with stupid people who do stupid things and their safety? Or are you concerned that when a stupid person does something stupid, that somehow it will cause the "community" at large some form of trouble, and therefore threaten your good time?

Every product in the world can be misused. Worry about yourself and help others when you can. The rest will sort itself out.

My wife was yelling at the dog tonight because he was sleeping very close to the wood stove, I told her to leave him be, she said he will burn himself, I replied, he just may, but he will only do it once.

Both. I tried to be clear about that in the first post.


Funny story about the dog, but having that attitude about some guy disfiguring his face with an ecig may not go over so well.

I won't flame you for speaking your opinion but if you think this topic is silly I'd say it's based on apathy or ignorance.

 

[BillyWJ]

What makes you think making a sub-ohm section unavailable to new members before they make xxx amount of posts going to do?

I'll tell you.

Make everything worse.

As it stands, at least when these people making stupid posts about wanting to sub ohm vape without ever trying vaping before they can get bombarded with members telling them NO. If they can't even access information about sub-ohming I guarantee you they will turn a cold shoulder to ECF.

Good points. How many of them already do?

 

[BillyWJ]

Both. I tried to be clear about that in the first post.


Funny story about the dog, but having that attitude about some guy disfiguring his face with an ecig may not go over so well.

Our current media wouldn't report "Dumb dog learns lesson", they'd lead the 6 o'clock news with 'Are wood burning stoves killing your pets? The story after this commercial from the people who make electric stoves with dog-proof doors."

 

[K_Tech]

Probably going to get flamed on this but the libertarian in me can't resist.

I feel this entire conversation is silly. It lacks truth. Are you really concerned with stupid people who do stupid things and their safety? Or are you concerned that when a stupid person does something stupid, that somehow it will cause the "community" at large some form of trouble, and therefore threaten your good time?

Every product in the world can be misused. Worry about yourself and help others when you can. The rest will sort itself out.

My wife was yelling at the dog tonight because he was sleeping very close to the wood stove, I told her to leave him be, she said he will burn himself, I replied, he just may, but he will only do it once.

Reminded me of a story a friend of mine related to me years ago.

When he was a toddler, he recalled his mother always shooing him away from the stove, telling him it was hot.

One day after she pulled a pan off the heating element, he yelled out "MOMMY, HOT!" and slapped his hand on the still-glowing coils.

Yeah, he actually learned what "HOT" meant that day.

Sometimes people have to burn before they learn, the best YOU can do is relate your personal experience and knowledge, and HOPE that some of it sticks.

 

[duroSIG556R]

I saw a youtube video of a guy saying he had to take the pcb off of his trustfire battery to get his mech mod to fire....I'm thinking, probably not a good idea....I wonder if he hurt himself yet?

I forgot to mention, he didn't even know what it was but it's ok, because now his mod fires...he also peeled off the entire wrapper of the battery and was using it like that.

 

[BillyWJ]

I saw a youtube video of a guy saying he had to take the pcb off of his trustfire battery to get his mech mod to fire....I'm thinking, probably not a good idea....I wonder if he hurt himself yet?

It's impossible to stop the "Hold muh beer!" crowd. All we can do is make sure they don't hang out here.

 

[K_Tech]

Good points. How many of them already do?

I'm sure a few of them already left for greener pastures - especially those that posed a question, only to get curb stomped for being so "stupid" in some of the replies.

I saw a youtube video of a guy saying he had to take the pcb off of his trustfire battery to get his mech mod to fire....I'm thinking, probably not a good idea....I wonder if he hurt himself yet?

Ugh.

 

[MamaTried]

Or, is it ECF's responsibility to have stickies that are obvious, like "SUB OHM go HERE", where more stickies and links to Baditude blogs can educate them without members having to spend hours walking people through it. I had a small epiphany today, that perhaps the members - with the best intentions in the world - are shouldering too much responsibility. It's also ECF's responsibility to decide if they want advanced topics like Sub Ohming to be allowed in the new poster forum, or link them elsewhere once they get their 5 posts in.

i'm not saying anything is ECF's responsibility. heck, the founders and mods on this forum are way more knowledgeable than me.

the point of my post was to suggest a way to get the message across to newcomers in a palatable form that would actually be appealing.

i used humor in my example. but something to answer the "cool" utube vids is all i meant.

for example, i've recommended Baditude's blogs and posts numerous times. but since i'm ancient, it may not have been received well.

all i'm saying is the safety message should be fun. then it may get some traction.

 

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Both. I tried to be clear about that in the first post.


Funny story about the dog, but having that attitude about some guy disfiguring his face with an ecig may not go over so well.

I cannot stop that from happening anymore than you can.

As I said...help others when you can. But leave it at that. Sit back relax and enjoy the ride. Those who's faces are disfigured through stupidity will do more to save future faces than all the BS we try to enforce. I don't like it, I hope it does not happen, but freedom has its risks. I am free to learn and do things safely and others are free to pay the price for their ignorance.

 

[Dandreid]

Probably going to get flamed on this but the libertarian in me can't resist.

I feel this entire conversation is silly. It lacks truth. Are you really concerned with stupid people who do stupid things and their safety? Or are you concerned that when a stupid person does something stupid, that somehow it will cause the "community" at large some form of trouble, and therefore threaten your good time?

Every product in the world can be misused. Worry about yourself and help others when you can. The rest will sort itself out.

My wife was yelling at the dog tonight because he was sleeping very close to the wood stove, I told her to leave him be, she said he will burn himself, I replied, he just may, but he will only do it once.

Well, I for one actually do care about peoples safety. There is always going to be something that causes the community trouble, some people don't like vaping or smoking or any number of other habits that they simply disagree with. So be it, we will always have something that we are defending. However, not informing people about safe practices is not something we should be lax on in my opinion.

It is true that kids (or dogs) need to learn that fire is hot and in the example you gave, it is true that the dog might get singed and never do it again. However, we are not talking about permanent disfigurement or major loss of property in that example. If someone causes a group of people or another individual to get hurt, then I really see that as a problem. I hate to use this example because it evokes fear mongering and doesn't exactly apply, but it gets my point across. If your dog were to drag a stick of dynamite over to that same stove, would you be saying the same thing. It's true that he won't make that mistake again, but, you won't have the opportunity to stop him again either.