Too Many Jan Join Dates Asking About Sub Ohm

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rurwin

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No instructions. Had to search the internet for a copy of the menu system. Ditto, the multimeter I purchased.

That is one aspect of vaping that annoys me. Most of the tech stuff I buy comes with a half-way decent manual. Most of the vape stuff comes with nothing. When I buy an EVOD I get a metal tube in a plastic bag. The Russian 91% came with one page with a diagram of all the pieces, nothing else. So when recently I bought a starter kit for a friend I wrote a page of instructions to go with it. I shouldn't have to do that. The industry should wake up and realise that it is supplying the general public now, not the knowledgeable clique that it started out supplying.

It's sort of off-topic, but I find myself wondering whether the experienced posters here should write a book. Maybe one of those where each chapter is written by a different author on their specialist subject. It could be released on Amazon Digital and make them/ECF/Charity/A.N.Other a bit of money. Books are widely perceived as more authoritative than random forum posts or videos.

Back on topic, I would agree that a Sub-Ohm (locked) sticky would be a good idea. As for a forum, this place has ten times too many of those already. Tests for veteran status I would have no argument about in principle, but I can't see them being implemented or implemented well. The forum software probably wouldn't support it without a lot of work. If someone really wants the job, then an offsite solution with a sig banner picture would be doable. It would be exportable to other fora too.
 
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jnnfrlsw

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I would love to see a poll that shows what percentage of sub-ohm/cloud chasers started vaping in order to actually quit smoking?
I suspect that a good percentage were never even fighting a smoking addiction, but rather are doing so because its the latest fad.

I am all for a person having the freedom to do what they want, but only up to a point. My fear is that if/when a few people get seriously hurt or worse -killed due to one of these crazy sub-ohm- subpar battery combos that it will be enough leverage for the FDA to finally ban ecigs. That may not be a big deal for those who started vaping simply because blowing clouds is the cool thing to do. They will simply move on to the next fad. But, what about the majority of us vapers who actually do so to stay off deadly cigs?

I don't know what the best answer is but I think discussions like this are a step in the right direction.
 

tonyorion

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The problem is that the sub ohm genie has been let out of the bottle, and there is no way that it is going to be pushed back into it.

You can enact all of the restrictions you want on ECF on limiting participation on sub ohm forums, and it will do you no good. These restrictions will only be a palliative for the people who proposed them in the first place.

Information is freely available on the web. Hardware-good, bad, or indifferent-is readily available without limitations.

We are all pretty much in agreement that sub ohm vaping has the potential to be very dangerous not only to the users but to those around them. You are dealing with a very explosive mixture of pushing the limits, poor hardware and design, lack of understanding and skills, carelessness, stupidity, and the folly of youth where vaping, especially cloud chasing, has become very trendy.

There is a lot of stored energy in a battery. The only analogy that I can come up with is striking a match near a gasoline spill.

I belong to that group of vapers who have a very myopic view of the world: to stop smoking cigarettes and break a lifelong addiction to a nasty, smelly, and unhealthy habit. I may have turned vaping into a mini hobby with tinkering and DIY, but that is only a side effect.

ANYTHING, let me repeat that, ANYTHING that threatens my happy state of not smoking will tick me off.

Sub ohm vaping is the biggest threat to my happiness out there because I know (we all do) that people will get hurt (they are already), and it will give the anti vaping establishment funded by Big Tobacco and Pharma all the ammunition it needs to push any regulation it wants through the legislature.

The general public does not give a flying fart about my addiction to tobacco. It only views that as a weakness and a form of moral depravity on my part. Now it sees kids getting addicted and people getting hurt. Forget the misinformation about the long term health effects; it will only play a secondary role in pushing public opinion against vapers.

BT did not buy Blu because the executives there are stupid. The sub ohm phenomena is causing them to rub their hands in glee because it will vastly accelerate the timetable on the ROI.

Regulation will come, and it will come down hard. So start hoarding now and learn how to make your own juices and build your own mods. You may be able to purchase legally something like a Blu, but not much else.
 

Stosh

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I am a reasonably intelligent person, who comes from a electronics engineering background and has spent more hours reading about vaping techniques and tricks than I care to count. I am a "cloud chaser". Why? I have no idea really... I enjoy it, simple as that. I do find that sub ohm builds produce greater flavor, denser/warmer vapor, and provide overall more satisfying vape - for me.........

I am confused about this particular post. You imply that a 10A battery is unsafe at 7-8A. Then go on to explain why manufacturers apply safety factors to products. All manufacturers, specifying any value pertaining to a "under load" use, will include a safety factor. Battery manufacturers are no exception, they arent going to say something can discharge at 30A when they actually mean 10A. In fact, when they say 30A and use a safety factor of 1.33 which is standard* in the electronics industry, it means that it can actually handle up to 40A.

Please don't think I condone the use of a battery at or over its advertised operating current. In fact, it would be completely idiotic to do so. Safety factors are included because on the off chance (six sigma manufacturing is what most adhere to) you get that one of those 3 in a million defective batteries, it still wont fail under the advertised load. While those odds are pretty good, when it comes to a battery possibly blowing up in my face, I wont take them.

*I am sure some manufacturers don't apply 1.33, however most that I have encountered do.

As the batteries are rated for more mainstream operations, where additional safety margin may be engineered in, I take their numbers being at an upper limit, where the expectation would be additional limits would be build into the device they are used in. Also the specifications are for a new battery, where even a standard 2.0Ω vape will put a stress on the battery. Repeated stresses increasing the internal resistance, lessens the available performance even more.

In vaping we use the batteries in unexpected conditions, where the main load of the circuit, 0.5Ω may be considered the resistance that may be encountered on a used, dirty switch contact.
 

Lifted

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OK, 5 pages into this thread and I can't keep reading... Maybe I am going to get flamed for this, but there seems to be a few things that are really erking me on this thread and board (a lot of the time).

The level of pretentiousness that is exuding from post after post is maddening. It seems that just because you are a noob on this forum, you must be a noob to vaping in general. People are basing someone's knowledge level on their join date. Hate to burst your bubble, but a lot of people don't seek out forums until they need help.

Secondly I don't own a provari or a dna or an reo... Just a basic chi, a king and a hammer... Am I still cool enough to be a part of this clique? I understand that a lot of the people on this forum have a relationship with one another, and that like minds flock together but it seems like some people on this site see my king with a .35 ohm as a sub par unit...

oh well...

I see where you're coming from. The point most posts made in this thread is that there are "new" people asking advanced questions about sub-ohm vaping with no obvious knowledge of the basics. There are exceptions to everything, and everyone has different skill-sets, but...

You must understand that there are a lot of people that see no reason to chase big clouds. Period. at all. To each their own...
All can agree that safety should be everyone's concern; especially when chasing the big clouds, and pushing your hardware to its limit. All it will take is a couple of sensational news stories about somebodys lips being blown off, and we'll all have to fight twice as hard to prove to the general public that vaping is mostly harmless.
 

tj99959

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    I build coils for people at my local shop and not too long ago a guy came in wanting huge clouds and super low ohms. He had no idea what he was getting into and was completely ignorant to the fact that it can be dangerous. He even said he didn't care and that he knew all he needed to know about it. Long story short, I refused to build him a coil and told him I wasn't going to have him on the news for blowing himself up. I give everyone I build for the same short lecture if they are new to sub ohm vaping, and generally folks are receptive and even want to talk at length about it. The ones that are arrogant or don't care I won't build for.

    Sure hope you have good liability insurance.
    I would not build a coil for someone else. I will show them how, but they build their own.
    All it would take is for them to mess with the coil you built after leaving the store, and they could end up owning your house, your car, and your first born .... maybe even your dog!
     

    Dandreid

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    A couple of posts have come up basically saying that sub ohm vaping and cloud chasing are the devil (paraphrased from my interpretation of those posts). I have to disagree here. I personally don't cloud chase, but I respect the rights of anyone who wants to go that direction. Just because some of us don't do it to stop smoking, doesn't mean others don't need it.

    Sub ohm and cloud chasing are not inherently bad things. I do have setups that benefit from sub ohm when I choose to use them. The key is safe use. We read about how sub ohm on mechs is becoming outmoded and such. I don't see that as the case until a non-pulsing regulated mod that works underwater firing .1 ohm coils with a 100 amp battery and having a 200 year warranty against any damage is on the market. Sub ohm and cloud chasing can be done safely, and they can be done safely relatively easily.

    There will always be dangers in everything we do. It is just as easy for someone to "blow up" an ego battery if they don't understand the safety aspects involved. I have literally seen someone over tighten a tank onto an ego and cause the top ring to twist shorting the battery on the case. Every time they hit the fire button, they got an electric shock and the battery started heating up.

    The point here is to figure out how to help people stay safe in an easy manner. We should not be bashing a group of people because they enjoy doing something that we see as unnecessary. We just need to be able to reliably tell them if they are doing something that is unsafe and not label an entire genre of the vaping culture as unsafe because we don't agree with it.
     

    tj99959

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    A couple of posts have come up basically saying that sub ohm vaping and cloud chasing are the devil (paraphrased from my interpretation of those posts). I have to disagree here. I personally don't cloud chase, but I respect the rights of anyone who wants to go that direction. Just because some of us don't do it to stop smoking, doesn't mean others don't need it.

    Sub ohm and cloud chasing are not inherently bad things. I do have setups that benefit from sub ohm when I choose to use them. The key is safe use. We read about how sub ohm on mechs is becoming outmoded and such. I don't see that as the case until a non-pulsing regulated mod that works underwater firing .1 ohm coils with a 100 amp battery and having a 200 year warranty against any damage is on the market. Sub ohm and cloud chasing can be done safely, and they can be done safely relatively easily.

    There will always be dangers in everything we do. It is just as easy for someone to "blow up" an ego battery if they don't understand the safety aspects involved. I have literally seen someone over tighten a tank onto an ego and cause the top ring to twist shorting the battery on the case. Every time they hit the fire button, they got an electric shock and the battery started heating up.

    The point here is to figure out how to help people stay safe in an easy manner. We should not be bashing a group of people because they enjoy doing something that we see as unnecessary. We just need to be able to reliably tell them if they are doing something that is unsafe and not label an entire genre of the vaping culture as unsafe because we don't agree with it.


    I still say that many of the sub ohmers are missing the point. This morning I have been blowing a cloud that I could hide behind, and I've been doing it with a 1.8 ohm build on a 3.7v mechanical. (about 7.5 watts) Problem is it's using about 3 drops of juice/hit. So I've only been able to use 0% nic, otherwise it tips me over.
    There is a whole world of possibilities beyond sub ohm builds, why not have some fun and try something different!
     
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    Kropotkin

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    I still say that many of the sub ohmers are missing the point. This morning I have been blowing a cloud that I could hide behind, and I've been doing it with a 1.8 ohm build on a 3.7v mechanical. (about 7.5 watts) Problem is it's using about 3 drops of juice/hit. So I've only been able to use 0% nic, otherwise it tips me over.
    There is a whole world of possibilities beyond sub ohm builds, why not have some fun and try something different!
    You, sir, need a YouTube channel.

    :)
     

    Dandreid

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    I still say that many of the sub ohmers are missing the point. This morning I have been blowing a cloud that I could hide behind, and I've been doing it with a 1.8 ohm build on a 3.7v mechanical. (about 7.5 watts) Problem is it's using about 3 drops of juice/hit. So I've only been able to use 0% nic, otherwise it tips me over.
    There is a whole world of possibilities beyond sub ohm builds, why not have some fun and try something different!

    I totally agree with this. I am currently using a 1.6 ohm single coil on an RDA that produces a ton of flavor and very decent vapor/throat hit. Plus, I'm using it on a Vamo V3. :vapor: There are times I use different builds and everyone has to choose what build (or equipment) they want to use at the time. I just don't think we should demonize anyone because they want something different.
     

    Myrany

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    I normally run 1.2-1.7 ohms on my REO and the clouds often are enough to make the computer screen hard to read. There are ways to get nice clouds without sub ohming.

    Even so if someone wants to take the time to learn what they need to know to sub ohm safely I say more power to em. It is the ones who don't do it and worse do not want to LEARN to do it safely that bother me.
     

    ericm12121977

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    I hate the cloud chasing sub-ohm newbie's who come here because they want to be "hip" and keep up with the youtuber's who make massive clouds. Unfortunately there is no way to fix stupidity. We as a community will have to deal with the outcome and backlash that is going to happen when these idiots disfigure or kill themselves because they can't think beyond 5 minutes and recording themselves to try to be 5 minute youtube star.

    I have a regulated VV/VW mod, I use an Igo-w with my coil running 2.2-2.9 ohm's and I use 70pg/30vg juice and I produce clouds that can blanket the area. You DON'T have to run sub ohm to make huge clouds!

    Nothing in this world is worth your life except your family and your freedom, but if you choose to pursue those endeavor's please make sure you put the blame on yourself and not the millions you are affecting with your stupidity!
     

    Dandreid

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    I hate the cloud chasing sub-ohm newbie's who come here because they want to be "hip" and keep up with the youtuber's who make massive clouds. Unfortunately there is no way to fix stupidity. We as a community will have to deal with the outcome and backlash that is going to happen when these idiots disfigure or kill themselves because they can't think beyond 5 minutes and recording themselves to try to be 5 minute youtube star.

    I have a regulated VV/VW mod, I use an Igo-w with my coil running 2.2-2.9 ohm's and I use 70pg/30vg juice and I produce clouds that can blanket the area. You DON'T have to run sub ohm to make huge clouds!

    Nothing in this world is worth your life except your family and your freedom, but if you choose to pursue those endeavor's please make sure you put the blame on yourself and not the millions you are affecting with your stupidity!

    Sub ohm does not necessarily equate to cloud chasing. I have found some juices that I really prefer the flavor of at 30+ watts. This can be done safely. The problem is when people don't understand what makes it safe and what is dangerous. I like to have options, and I like to try different things. I won't go out of my way to find the biggest cloud, that's not my goal, and that's not why I sub ohm at times.

    Just because one person finds a sweet spot with one set of equipment and parameters doesn't mean that is the end all be all experience for another person.

    We all make choices and we all have to live with the consequences of our choices, but some way for us to at least try to inform people accurately and easily is a good thing in my opinion.
     

    Myk

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    I still say that many of the sub ohmers are missing the point. This morning I have been blowing a cloud that I could hide behind, and I've been doing it with a 1.8 ohm build on a 3.7v mechanical. (about 7.5 watts) Problem is it's using about 3 drops of juice/hit. So I've only been able to use 0% nic, otherwise it tips me over.
    There is a whole world of possibilities beyond sub ohm builds, why not have some fun and try something different!

    That's what I don't get. Most of the cloud chasing I've seen relies on big lung hits and straight VG. When I vape normally I can get equal clouds with the right build. Even my protank was producing clouds equal to my duals. If I take a big lung hit from my 2.2Ω ribbon gennie it looks the same as the sub-ohm RDA guy I saw in person.

    I do have a place for duals, it forces me to keep my nicotine intake up. But as far as clouds I can do that with anything.
     

    Nikkita6

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    These threads are always informative and interesting to read. Good points are brought up, and everyone agrees that there are dangers associated with lack of knowledge.

    I can see where some people would like a "test" to move on to more advanced knowledge. If people build sub ohm coils without any understanding of what they did, it can be a very bad experience. However, I truly think that limiting access to the knowledge will be a bad thing.

    We want people to be educated on the safety aspects of what they are trying to do, and, in my opinion, if we limit access to this knowledge by making it harder to access, we will simply encourage people to gain all of this knowledge on their own by making mistakes. Don't forget that many people come to these forums and just read (lurkers), and don't forget that the attention span of many people is quite low. For better or worse, society as a whole has become used to having any and all information readily available.

    By forcing people to sign up, make posts, pass a test, etc., there will be those who decide to just jump into the deep end of the pool and forge ahead without the knowledge that they need.



    Just my 2 cents


    I completely understand where you are coming from on this, and I honestly feel like strong arguments can be made for both "temporarily restricted access" and "free for all access" ... neither of these approaches to disseminating information to new vapers is right, or wrong, and in either case it all comes down to choices, consequences, and responsibility. What am I, you, we, comfortable with being responsible for. There is our individual responsibility, and our collective responsibility as a community, whichever "way" is chosen, I, you, we are responsible for the consequences, and results, both good, and bad.

    I totally agree, and accept that with a temporarily restricted access site, there will be those who do not like, or agree with that "process" of gaining knowledge and understanding, and who will go off on their own and just do it anyway, without having the knowledge and information they need to do it safely ... In this case, who is responsible for this?

    That would be the individual who chose to "do it anyway" on their own, regardless of the potential dangers of doing so. The administrator of the temporarily restricted access site hands are clean, and is in no way responsible for the individual who did not have the care, or the patience for the "process"... nor would they in anyway be responsible for any ills that may befall the one who had not the patience to learn via the process. They are only responsible for the quality, and content of the information being offered, and "how" the information is administered on their site.

    Now in the case of a free access site, which is the system that this site presently operates under, we know that one of the consequences of a free for all system is that there are those who still will not heed, or follow a process of learning that is being "recommended" versus "required" for their own good and safety. In which case those individuals, are greatly increasing the odds and probabilities that at worst, they can do some damage to themselves or someone else, and at best they will build something that merely doesn't work well for them and end up frustrated.

    In this case the individual is still mainly responsible for choosing to not honor the process of learning, but isn't the site administrator also responsible to a lesser degree for offering free access to information that calls for a "process of learning" in order to make the best use of the information given?

    Is this any different than the parents who smoke cigarettes in front of, and around their children, but reminds them all the time that they are too young to smoke, and that they have to wait until they are of legal age to do so?.. Or the parents who freely uses adult language around their children, all the while telling the child they are not allowed to use such language because they are too young?.. and we all know too well how that turned out. ;-)

    Monkey see, monkey do! How old were you when you started smoking and using adult language? 10, 12, 14 ??? Would you have started smoking so early if the behavior wasn't constantly being modeled for you? If you are honest, probably not.

    It is very short sighted, and a bit self deceptive to believe that you can flash bright shiny, cool, interesting, better, and more complicated things in the face of the masses, and they will not want to try it, imitate it, and to indulge in it, regardless of any "recommendations" made to the contrary in the name of safety and what is "ideal". As I have already stated, while Freedom is a lovely ideal, in reality not everyone is mature enough to handle the responsibility of Freedom. And when you knowingly offer such Freedom to a community mixed with those who are mature enough, and those who YOU KNOW are not, you share the responsibility for the collective outcomes/consequences of that choice... period.

    So again, neither way "temporarily restricted access" or "free for all access" is right, or wrong (both being relative to the NATURE of the one who perceives the action) ... it is then a matter of which "choice, way, and consequences" is your conscience comfortable with being responsible for, individually and collectively.
     

    Dandreid

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    Nikkita,

    I really liked reading this post. I agree with you in most of what you say. I definitely agree that nothing will be perfect. I think me and you are on slightly opposite sides of the line here, but regardless of that, we agree that safety is important. To answer your question about foul language in front of my parents, well, funny story, but I still can't cuss in front of them.

    When I was in the 3rd or 4th grade, I was supposed to read a book. My mother told me to start reading it one day and I spat out "I don't want to read the ... book." It's funny, but the consequences of that action have stuck with me. I still remember the face of my mother when she asked me what I had just said, lol.

    I personally think that the discussion about how to handle this subject is important. Regardless of the outcome, threads like this give us something to think about as long as they don't devolve into a fight and end up with the answer "Stupid is as stupid does." The debate and getting the ideas out in the open will ultimately help all of us in my opinion.
     

    BillyWJ

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    Nikkita,

    I really liked reading this post. I agree with you in most of what you say. I definitely agree that nothing will be perfect. I think me and you are on slightly opposite sides of the line here, but regardless of that, we agree that safety is important. To answer your question about foul language in front of my parents, well, funny story, but I still can't cuss in front of them.

    When I was in the 3rd or 4th grade, I was supposed to read a book. My mother told me to start reading it one day and I spat out "I don't want to read the ... book." It's funny, but the consequences of that action have stuck with me. I still remember the face of my mother when she asked me what I had just said, lol.

    I personally think that the discussion about how to handle this subject is important. Regardless of the outcome, threads like this give us something to think about as long as they don't devolve into a fight and end up with the answer "Stupid is as stupid does." The debate and getting the ideas out in the open will ultimately help all of us in my opinion.

    I think threads like this plant seeds of ideas in people's heads, and if that's the case, mission accomplished.
     

    BillyWJ

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    Why do you need sub ohm a micro coil at 1.6ohm is just fine for most also it's about 3 different things air and fuel (juice) play just as much a part to the amount of vapour as the coil does if you get the 3 right you get a great vape

    You don't need sub ohm. It's an option, and a preference.

    The argument isn't if it's needed, it's how to deal with people rushing into it without knowing the basics and safety of the practice of doing it - nobody to my knowledge has ever said "Nobody should sub ohm", although it does seem at times some of the sub ohm crowd reacts like we are. Now, of course, your post will probably derail the thread with people defending it.

    And the circle of forum life is completed.
     

    Iquitcigs

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    Sorry about that just don't see the point thought I did when I started vaping but I now build good coils and get mix just right and that's all i feel I need I was a very heavy smoker was not trying to offend anyone if you want to sub ohm go ahead it all about personal preference as a heavy smoker of roll your own tobacco I hate cigars some people love em
     
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