FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[Racehorse]

^^^ Williams was host for a fund-raiser for a Faulkner County candidate backed by Gilbert Baker.... Baker the BT lobbyist had previously put some PAC money into Williams pocket......see how it's all interconnected? Also, Altria gave at least 60 campaign contributions to Arkansas legislative candidates in 2014

 

[Katya]

The good guys:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...to-defend-e-cigarettes-from-possible-fda-bans

House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., and House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton, R-Mich., wrote to Health and Human Services Secretary Sylvia Burwell last week requesting a change to proposed Food and Drug Administration regulations that may be enacted soon.

Per Bill G: there are now 24 cosponsors of Tom Cole's bill (HR 2058)--all are Republicans
THOMAS (Library of Congress) (to obtain bill info, type in HR 2058 in bill search)

List of cosponsors

H.R.2058
Latest Title: FDA Deeming Authority Clarification Act of 2015
Sponsor: Rep Cole, Tom [OK-4] (introduced 4/28/2015) Cosponsors (24)
Latest Major Action: 5/1/2015 Referred to House subcommittee. Status: Referred to the Subcommittee on Health.
by date)

Rep Amodei, Mark E. [NV-2] - 5/14/2015
Rep Barletta, Lou [PA-11] - 7/9/2015
Rep Brat, Dave [VA-7] - 6/15/2015
Rep Ellmers, Renee L. [NC-2] - 5/14/2015
Rep Fleischmann, Charles J. "Chuck" [TN-3] - 6/15/2015
Rep Flores, Bill [TX-17] - 7/9/2015
Rep Graves, Tom [GA-14] - 5/21/2015
Rep Griffith, H. Morgan [VA-9] - 6/15/2015
Rep Guthrie, Brett [KY-2] - 4/29/2015
Rep Harris, Andy [MD-1] - 5/14/2015
Rep Hunter, Duncan D. [CA-50] - 5/1/2015
Rep Hurt, Robert [VA-5] - 6/9/2015
Rep Jones, Walter B., Jr. [NC-3] - 5/14/2015
Rep Kinzinger, Adam [IL-16] - 6/25/2015
Rep Long, Billy [MO-7] - 5/21/2015
Rep Pompeo, Mike [KS-4] - 5/18/2015
Rep Rigell, E. Scott [VA-2] - 6/15/2015
Rep Rooney, Thomas J. [FL-17] - 4/29/2015
Rep Rouzer, David [NC-7] - 4/29/2015
Rep Shimkus, John [IL-15] - 7/9/2015
Rep Valadao, David G. [CA-21] - 5/21/2015
Rep Walker, Mark [NC-6] - 7/22/2015
Rep Whitfield, Ed [KY-1] - 6/9/2015
Rep Yoder, Kevin [KS-3] - 6/9/2015

 

[Kent C]

The latest Senator letter to the OMB adds a few more names.

http://www.merkley.senate.gov/news/...rettes-and-other-unregulated-tobacco-products

 

[Katya]

The latest Senator letter to the OMB adds a few more names.

http://www.merkley.senate.gov/news/...rettes-and-other-unregulated-tobacco-products

I'm so sick and tired of writing to Boxer and Feinstein....

 

[Cam775]

This actually makes sense. Seeing what was coming, why would BT put money into R&D of new products? It makes more financial sense to keep the crap cig-a-likes on the market for now and see which way the wind blows, they know best, from experience, how the FDA works. They can always jump into the market competitively after the hammer drops...less competition and they'll know what hoops to jump through. Then they can just buy out the companies with great products who won't be able to afford FDA approval. Who else will be able to buy those companies and afford the FDA too? The manufacturers & larger juice companies may even be grateful for a low-ball buy out offer as opposed to just closing up shop and BT companies will have their pick of the most lucrative crop, plus already marketed products with a built-in customer base. Then all of us dummies may never even realize that we're buying XXX juice or YYY Box Mods (insert well known company that we buy from now) products that are actually owned by BT.

Ugh...

I'm not so certain. The Feb 2007 date was simply when Waxman(D) proposed the bill. The fact that at that point - perhaps and not without doubt - that only cigalikes were available from Ruyan (not from the cigarette companies) and the fact that tobacco companies have been one out of many who have produced and continued to produce mainly cigalikes doesn't mean they were 'in bed' with the FDA regarding the GF date which was established from a known source.

That said - it may be that the tobacco companies 'saw the train coming down the track' and stayed with the cigalike design for that reason. And there is no reason to believe that their cigalike will be grandfathered. Perhaps certain aspects of them would but others would have to go through the new product applications which - I agree - they are in better position to pay for but not because of anything in the FDA deeming. Joyetech and Kanger may be in even better position but they'd have to have American sites or finance some of the major vendors to make such a case. That's pure speculation - don't know if they would want or would do anything like that. They do have other customers than Americans - not the market of American but a market none-the-less.

The whole "BT" and "BP" stuff comes from mainly liberals/socialists who hate anything 'big' except government - So the 'big' aspect to 'explain' why things are so screwed up (without actually having reasons other than they are big AND without acknowledging the Reason they are big is because of government. Without gov't they wouldn't be so big, but that has more to do with history that precedes ecigarettes.

I find it a bit odd, that liberals who have smoked all their lives and have depended upon BT to continue their use - iow, actually 'loved' BT or their brand, now, like 'reformed alcoholics' strike out against BT, like alcoholics strike out against alcohol. When it was their habits, their own decisions, that drove both. But hypocrisy is no stranger to liberals.

 

[Kent C]

This actually makes sense. Seeing what was coming, why would BT put money into R&D of new products? It makes more financial sense to keep the crap cig-a-likes on the market for now and see which way the wind blows

That makes a lot of sense and we still don't know if any of their products will be grandfathered. Even if none, they are in a good position to file for new product applications. The gov't deeming will doom the rest, not BT. And they'd be fools not to fill the void if they can.

Although the FDA is a bit stingy on handling and approving applications according to Bill G and others, so there's no guarantee that anything will get approved. Part of the approval is showing how the product doesn't harm and the FDA has enough of FDA and gov't financed junk studies that show they do harm. While we have studies that show they don't, it becomes matter of judgment and the judge will be the FDA.

There's more to the whole process than that but that's a quick summary from what we've read here and what the deeming says. If the grandfather date is changed, then that changes the whole scenario - devices other the cigalikes will be gf'd in.

 

[Kent C]

I'm so sick and tired of writing to Boxer and Feinstein....

I quit writing to Sherrod Brown, except what goes through on CASAA stuff.

 

[justagurlinseattle]

The latest Senator letter to the OMB adds a few more names.

http://www.merkley.senate.gov/news/...rettes-and-other-unregulated-tobacco-products

Here is the thing that gets me.
They are making the claim that e-cig use among teens has tripled. If I recall correctly,
in that study, or poll, they asked teens if the had USED AN E-Cig in the last month.

I know teens who have tried an e-cig in the last month.. that does NOT mean they actually use
one on a regular basis.
The stupid just seems heavy with this.

UUgggh, it makes me sick that they don't seem to be the sharpest knives in the drawer.

(ohhh no, was that a micro-aggression against cutlery?)

 

[Oliver]

Here is the thing that gets me.
They are making the claim that e-cig use among teens has tripled. If I recall correctly,
in that study, or poll, they asked teens if the had USED AN E-Cig in the last month.

I know teens who have tried an e-cig in the last month.. that does NOT mean they actually use
one on a regular basis.
The stupid just seems heavy with this.

UUgggh, it makes me sick that they don't seem to be the sharpest knives in the drawer.

(ohhh no, was that a micro-aggression against cutlery?)

It's particularly troubling given that approximately 50% of adolescents who try a cigarette go on to be daily users of cigarettes (from personal correspondence with Peter Hajek). There's approximately zero serious discussion of the "interruption process" whereby e-cigarettes preventing adolescents from trialling cigarettes.

Further, there's no discussion of what I call "disruptive denormalisation" - the idea that a safer, less addicting product might be "rebranding" the cigarette as something "dirty and nerdy" (with the exception of the French professor quoted in the report linked)

 

[Cam775]

...I can't get rid of these darned emotes on my cel, so please excuse their randomness in my replies.

DIY strictly for Personal Consumption is Great. In Fact, I have been doing it for over 4 Years.

But what makes it Possible is my Ability to Purchase, as an "End User", Unflavored Nicotine Base.

Every Single Thing that I have Read about Deeming is Not going to Effect my Ability to do DIY (for Personal Use) with the Nicotine Base that Already Have.

But Every Single Thing that I have read about Deeming Is going to Effect my ability to buy Nicotine Base.

This is quite confusing because several places in this thread show evidence that nic base won't be affected but ENDS e-juice will. Again, is this just confusing verbage spread throughout the doc on the same subject? Or are the people posting confused by the verbage?

I just posted what someone posted on reddit. The way I read it is, that the Ag bill (I didn't look at it) had provisions that were 'similar' to HR 2058 that did the same thing - put the GF date to final rule. I don't think it was a 'rider' - just similar wording. Pretty sure HR 2058 is still in committee - not sure about the Ag bill...

So there are some politicians doing something for the rights of the vaping community. Nice to know. Does anyone know the status of this or what the name or docket # of this bill is?

Yes, but now everyone knows who the players are and what they are trying do achieve. In my state of California, for example, the same characters get elected year after year, and there's no doubt what page they're on. Everyone is unhappy with the status quo, but they vote for the same jokers every time. I just don't get it.

The same thing happened in Nevada. I could go into the details but it would be a book...my point, after Harry Reid got elected again I lost all faith in honest elections. I'll still vote due to my principles but my logic tells me the outcome is decided before I punch the hole. Just my

Great. So now we see what May Help Us.

What would be the Best way to Get People Active so it Will Help Us?

Identifying the targets are the first step. What one does after that is their choice. I suggest following CASAA's call to actions, and I've done my share of emailing committee/committee chairmen, others who I know are on our side. Asking local vape shops what they're doing and answering questions, giving links they might need. Much of the stuff you've been advocating and doing - thanks!

I think this Definitely needs to be Taken to the Vape Shops. As well as the Online Retailers.

I think we do a Good Job of getting the word out to ECF Members, but ECF Members make up such a Small Percentage of all Vaper's.

One of the BIGGEST issues we're facing is people who vape and have no clue this is going on. I've talked to 5 people who I know vape but aren't on the forums. Today I talked to someone I don't know, but I saw vaping, again no clue. I would suggest if you all see someone vaping, shed any timidity you might have and talk to them, tell them what's going on. The people I've talked to are shocked that this could possibly be happening.

The other problem I see is the membership of vaping forums, no offense meant, but most on the forums have seen the calls to action sooooooo many times and they haven't lost anything yet, they just don't take it seriously or "get" how serious as it is now. One thing that leads me in this direction, start a thread about high diacetyl in some big name makers juice and the page count goes sky high in 1 day. I see people reading here but not really getting involved, again no offense but I want to be seeing some outrage at how close this is to wrecking everyone's vaping way of life. Another thing: On another forum there was a post with the thread topic about this CTA and the poster was asking if it was really a big deal, not one response said yes. The responses were pretty much, stock up just in case but nothing's going to happen right away, don't sweat it. We can't fix stupid, I know that but there must be some way to stress the importance of A). taking action now and B). not stopping until the OMB has made their decision. These calls to the White House, letters to our Reps shouldn't stop until there is a definitive response. One way to help this along IMO is to draft a letter that any numnuts can copy/paste to send to their Reps. Not everyone is skilled in intelligent letter writing and some people are intimidated by it. I know that CASAA has something but I think it asks too much imput from the individual for some people. I've written one for myself, took a good 8hrs of research and I'm almost done with it but I'm looking for something posted in this thread I can't find. Maybe someone can help and when I'm done I'll post my letter here for ya'll to review. I'm looking for the letter that was written to the FDA in 2014 addressing the impact of the deeming regs on small business, it was from another Federal organization. If anyone can link that I'd appreciate it, even if just for myself.

Another thing that I think we're lacking is more advocate groups. I know that's not an overnight thing but even just an online presence to start with, a Facebook page, Twitter account, etc. everything has to start somewhere. One I can think of is something to spread awareness that Nicotine Is Not Tobacco. I know it may seem like a duh thought..duh, everyone knows that! But people don't seem to know the positive effects and uses nicotine have. Alzheimer's patients are starting to use nic to combat the effects of the disease. Nic is found in veggies, etc. etc. There's plenty more that can go here but it's late and I want to get through this post.

Ignore ---->

I'm sorry.. But, I have to say it... we are think like old people. The way to do this,
is through Social Media... Twitter, Facebook, Redit, Instagram... etc.,.. etc..

Writing letters is great.. it is a good tool.. BUT, this is 2015, our politicians have Twitter
and Facebook accounts. they read their Social media, I am not so sure
they read the letters written to them.

If EVERYBODY got on Twitter and [HASHTAG]#keepvapinglegal[/HASHTAG] (or something like that) was used often, it would trend.
That is what we NEED, this issue to trend.
One or 2 people going on Twitter will not make a difference, it would take a LOT of
people, but it could at least get them to see that we mean business.

There is a hashtag. The FDA posted a public service announcement about quitting smoking about a month ago and vapers blew up their page with a hashtag. I think it might be more effective to keep it in the FDA's face, since they've already been blasted with it and vapers are already using it. But [HASHTAG]#keepvapinglegal[/HASHTAG] works too.

I need to learn how to tweet.

The problem with what I put on FB is the people seeing it don't care. They don't vape, and I spend all day refuting their idiotic comments (antifreeze, how its no different than smoking, formaldehyde). I guess there may be a tiny bit of positives IF any of them realize those things aren't true, but I doubt it I suspect they believe whatever they see in the media and think I'm a crazed zealot who is biased.

Another FB page that should be created, then we can all just send the naysayers there instead of re-typing the same stuff over and over. Like a Questions About Vaping Page or Group or something like that.

Ya'll wanted ideas...there's mine

 

[Cam775]

Another hashtag should be [HASHTAG]#BigTobaccoDoesntOwnVaping[/HASHTAG]

Long one but jeez, the public needs to know this!

 

[Oliver]

@Cam775 You know, five days ago I would totally have shared your sentiments, and I had exactly the same sense of frustration - but last week I came into possession of some knowledge that's giving me hope.

The lastest CASAA CTA appears to have gained serious traction. A number of reasons for this are plausible (not least a number of vape stores finally waking up and realising that this is real). And the net result is that between Weds and Friday last week around 200k emails were sent by vapers via CASAA's CQ Rolecall platform - they've never seen anything like this and are, frankly, astonished. Also, the phones at the White House were ringing off the hook - it was almost impossible to get through.

So, are things changing? I hope so.

I've also heard some disturbing news. Apparently, due to the leak from TVECA, the FDA is no longer providing representatives to field questions during OIRA meetings with Vape Businesses. My source tells me that due to information leaked to the public (even if it's just a one page Table of Contents), the FDA will not field questions from the public, and have basically shut down their engagement.

I've not had this confirmed by any other source, so take it with caution. But if true, this is a massive own-goal.

 

[tiburonfirst]

and just in case it's necessary for all those non-soccer fans around here:

''own-goal (in soccer) a goal scored inadvertently when the ball is struck into the goal by a player on the defensive team.''

 

[justagurlinseattle]

honestly i think facebook won't be that helpful in this fight. the way facebook's algorithm works now, the posts we make barely reach any of our friends or followers. for example... i'm a electronic music producer and have about 7600 fans on my FB page. If i make a post on their, maybe 2% of my followers will see that post. facebook is now pretty much just a pay to play advertising site, it's no longer useful for organic growth or conversation. it's only good use is being able to stay in touch with friends and family.

Twitter and Instagram will be the most useful social media platforms for this fight. And I agree that tweeting to government officials is a good idea

I agree 100%..


also, a good idea might be to find an expert like Godshall or Dr. Siegel and see
if they would be willing to do an AMA/ on Reddit ...

AMA stands for Ask Me Anything... the author will introduce themselves and then
people can ask them various questions and the author will answer them. Many stars do them.

These are quite popular these days, and they tend to show up high on Google search.

It's not the best suggestion, but it might be a bit helpful, especially if we were
to advertise the date and time on Twitter.

 

[Cam775]

@Cam775 You know, five days ago I would totally have shared your sentiments, and I had exactly the same sense of frustration - but last week I came into possession of some knowledge that's giving me hope.

The lastest CASAA CTA appears to have gained serious traction. A number of reasons for this are plausible (not least a number of vape stores finally waking up and realising that this is real). And the net result is that between Weds and Friday last week around 200k emails were sent by vapers via CASAA's CQ Rolecall platform - they've never seen anything like this and are, frankly, astonished. Also, the phones at the White House were ringing off the hook - it was almost impossible to get through.

So, are things changing? I hope so.

I've also heard some disturbing news. Apparently, due to the leak from TVECA, the FDA is no longer providing representatives to field questions during OIRA meetings with Vape Businesses. My source tells me that due to information leaked to the public (even if it's just a one page Table of Contents), the FDA will not field questions from the public, and have basically shut down their engagement.

I've not had this confirmed by any other source, so take it with caution. But if true, this is a massive own-goal.

I don't know if the B&M's I contacted knew the forum existed but it seemed like they weren't reading here by the responses I got back. By sending so many here it sounds like your project had an additional effect..couldn't have been better timing unless that was intentional? If so . Several of the people I've talked to buy exclusively from B&M's and they didn't know so I guess I'll make some stops driving around town.

I'm confused (I seem to be writing that a lot lately), I thought the OIRA is closed to outside intervention. I thought they would send the deeming regs back to the FDA asking for changes or to address certain issues. For example, the economic impact on small businesses was a point I was asking my State reps to contact the OIRA with concerns over. Is this a document that when released will be a final from the OIRA. I was hoping if they had issues they would kick it back to the FDA to revise?

 

[justagurlinseattle]

Also, when we set a date for the Twitter Attack... To MASS Tweet the Politicians,
we should inform the YouTube Taping Community, like Tia Vapes, Abby Vapes.. etc. etc..
so they can tell their viewers to also Tweet the politicians and
to also suggest some [HASHTAG]#hashtags[/HASHTAG] to use.

Tia Vapes posted a video 9 hours ago, it already has over a 1,411 views.

Tia does great videos and has done some videos on this issue
just this last week. Being that she has so many viewers,
she would be a great one to inform of the mass Tweeting.

 

[Rossum]

Can't trust any of 'em just for having D or R after their name, what I found out.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

I can't get rid of these darned emotes on my cel

In the upper right line (at least on my cell) of action icons there is a symbol of a piece of paper with the top left side folded and a wrench that looks like a fat Y. That will allow you to directly edit. When done there is an option just below the box your typing in that says Use Rich Text Editor that you can press to go back to the "assisted" text input method.

 

[englishmick]

This is quite confusing because several places in this thread show evidence that nic base won't be affected but ENDS e-juice will. Again, is this just confusing verbage spread throughout the doc on the same subject? Or are the people posting confused by the verbage?

The verbiage is definitely confusing. At this point in the process clarity might be a negative to the authors. All they need to do now is lay down enough language to support whatever decisions they make when the time comes to implement the thing. They want to keep their options open.

I imagine there could be all sorts of reasons for the absence of specific language relating to nic base. Maybe there are some technical legal obstacles to banning or regulating its sale within this particular document. Maybe they plan to address it later in a different way. Maybe they just haven't understood yet that they need to address nic base. Maybe DIY isn't a big enough fish for them to even care about. The FDA, and the politicians they serve, aren't in this to stop people vaping, they are in this to protect their revenue stream from tobacco.

 

[Robino1]

They first have to Deem, then they will be able to address nic base, flavoring and anything thing else they want. If they showed what their intentions were regarding base and flavorings, they KNOW it would piss us off more than we already are. I truly feel that they already have a game plan all ready for when deeming is finalized.