FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[navigator2011]

I agree.

But we would need an election for that. Nothing here until next year....

I know, but this may be still relevant next year. Any besides, if vaping is dead next year, I certainly would never vote for anyone that had a part in the killing.

 

[hoogie76]

There's a lot of background action going on and many of us are scheduling meetings with FDA/OMB. BUT... It's all guess work to a point. We can go in and say what we want, what we expect and what we think the proposed regulations will do to our industry but we have only vague ideas of what the other side is really doing (yet). We can speculate all we want but it's really all about presenting ideas for what we believe to be reasonable and fair regulations hoping that they'll be considered and acted upon before final regulations are created.

I did learn an interesting tidbit and that is that anytime there is a comment period on a fda regulation, clarification, rulemaking or whatever, only comments submitted on that proposal can be included if the fda were ever taken to court. New evidence cannot be added. I had a totally different picture of the documentation I'd bring.. Now I post it in advance..

Comment on and keep up the good fight.

hoog

 

[zoiDman]

I think anyone exiting the market now is doing so very much prematurely.
But I don't think that is really happening too much yet.

We have all kinds of recourse still available.

The OMB/OIRA sending back the deeming regulations is the first line of defense.
HR 2058 and the agriculture bill are the second line of defense.
Getting Congress to reject the deeming is the third line of defense.
Getting a new President, with new political appointees is the fourth line of defense.

And finally, the courts would be the last line of defense.
Not sure if I missed any.

And before you ask what should we be doing then, which of course would be another rhetorical question...

--Growing our numbers in CASAA, the vaping Militia, and SFATA
--Contacting OMB/OIRA with our concerns
--Contacting Congress critters
--Signing petitions
--Educating our family, friends, and coworkers
--Visiting vape shops and making sure they are aware
--Voting as you see fit in the next election
--

The OMB/OIRA phase is Kinda Frustrating. Because they Don't want to Tell Us what they are Reviewing. So it is Hard to site Line Items. Or to even Know where the FDA's head is.

Have heard much Lately, where are we on those Grandfather Bills? What do they Need to Move Forward?

 

[zoiDman]

There's a lot of background action going on and many of us are scheduling meetings with FDA/OMB. BUT... It's all guess work to a point. We can go in and say what we want, what we expect and what we think the proposed regulations will do to our industry but we have only vague ideas of what the other side is really doing (yet). We can speculate all we want but it's really all about presenting ideas for what we believe to be reasonable and fair regulations hoping that they'll be considered and acted upon before final regulations are created.

I did learn an interesting tidbit and that is that anytime there is a comment period on a fda regulation, clarification, rulemaking or whatever, only comments submitted on that proposal can be included if the fda were ever taken to court. New evidence cannot be added. I had a totally different picture of the documentation I'd bring.. Now I post it in advance..

Comment on and keep up the good fight.

hoog

Do you know of a Ball Park Time Frame when some of the Pro e-Cigarettes meetings have been Scheduled. End of this Year? January? Later?

 

[Kent C]

only comments submitted on that proposal can be included if the fda were ever taken to court. New evidence cannot be added.

That's crucial and should prompt more to comment now. Thanks!

 

[Katya]

There's a lot of background action going on and many of us are scheduling meetings with FDA/OMB. BUT... It's all guess work to a point. We can go in and say what we want, what we expect and what we think the proposed regulations will do to our industry but we have only vague ideas of what the other side is really doing (yet). We can speculate all we want but it's really all about presenting ideas for what we believe to be reasonable and fair regulations hoping that they'll be considered and acted upon before final regulations are created.

I did learn an interesting tidbit and that is that anytime there is a comment period on a fda regulation, clarification, rulemaking or whatever, only comments submitted on that proposal can be included if the fda were ever taken to court. New evidence cannot be added. I had a totally different picture of the documentation I'd bring.. Now I post it in advance..

Comment on and keep up the good fight.

hoog

Thanks, hoog!

And godspeed.

@JustJulie @kristin

We need more CTAs.

 

[Katya]

I know, but this may be still relevant next year. Any besides, if vaping is dead next year, I certainly would never vote for anyone that had a part in the killing.

I haven't voted for any of them in a long time... Just for the record.

And I never will.

 

[navigator2011]

I haven't voted for any of them in a long time... Just for the record.

And I never will.

I'll definitely be paying very close attention to identifying back actors within my own party--they won't be getting my vote, even if it means not voting at all.

 

[navigator2011]

Katya, like the avatar, especially today. Reminds me of: Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

 

[Katya]

Katya, like the avatar, especially today. Reminds me of: Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

We've come a long way... What a sad day it is.

 

[navigator2011]

We've come a long way... What a sad day it is.

I just heard it's going on right now. So sad.

 

[Jman8]

I think anyone exiting the market now is doing so very much prematurely.
But I don't think that is really happening too much yet.

We have all kinds of recourse still available.

The OMB/OIRA sending back the deeming regulations is the first line of defense.
HR 2058 and the agriculture bill are the second line of defense.
Getting Congress to reject the deeming is the third line of defense.
Getting a new President, with new political appointees is the fourth line of defense.

And finally, the courts would be the last line of defense.
Not sure if I missed any.

And before you ask what should we be doing then, which of course would be another rhetorical question...

--Growing our numbers in CASAA, the Vaping Militia, and SFATA
--Contacting OMB/OIRA with our concerns
--Contacting Congress critters
--Signing petitions
--Educating our family, friends, and coworkers
--Visiting vape shops and making sure they are aware
--Voting as you see fit in the next election

Agree with your recourses. Not even main point of this post, but discussion on this thread (like many others) is very pessimistic as of late. I understand why, and don't fully disagree with it. But it is a bit defeating in many ways, since it is few hundred little people against what we identify as Big Whatever.

To not note underground market as recourse is I think a disservice (at worst) and dumb politically. When I just communicated with WH, I brought up underground market. It was my main point. I think it needs to be a main point before pessimism. After it is mentioned, feel free to paint as dark of a picture that you think is realistic. But to not realize it will, in fact, be a recourse is hard to get behind. If you are DIYing right now or stocking up, then you are essentially admitting to being a participant in the underground market, so just take the extra step and note it as viable recourse.

Main point of this post that I wanted to write is that I find the "what to do" list challenging. Might be where my pessimism comes in. Of the 7 items listed, 5 of them are relying on political types, and 2 of them are educating others. Thus far, relying on political types hasn't seemed to paid off any dividends and we are living in a time when R's control congress. They really ought to be able to change something/anything from FDA full assault, and if they don't then I don't see why in a future we'd think it would be different.

And the real main point for me is that with educating, I find it challenging to educate friends, family and co-workers. Not impossible and I'm not going to stop doing it. But people very often appear to have their mind made up. You see this on the forums in all the threads where some of the same people in this thread are trying to play the angle of "maybe it is very dangerous to be vaping" where in this thread they wanna post links to back up how utterly safe vaping is, and why no politician ought to be attacking it unless they have solid evidence to demonstrate otherwise. But if we can't even convince fellow vapers (let's state that again for emphasis), if we can't even convince FELLOW VAPERS, about relative harmlessness of vaping, then really how are we going to educate non-vapers who have to choose between what we are saying (backed up with scientific data for our points) and their version of "this is what science has said about your eCig thingy?"

I'm still going to educate regardless of how today goes politically or 10 years from now, but I do think it is challenging because people do really appear to have their mind made up. To the degree that seems questionable/debatable, I'll gladly post links to 10 other threads right here on ECF, and you can bring in your magical powers of education and let's see how you fare on convincing fellow vapers on these points we then later have to persuade non-vapers to reconsider their take on things.

 

[zoiDman]

It is Horrific.

And appears to have been/is a Highly Organized Attack.

 

[Jman8]

It is Horrific.

And appears to have been/is a Highly Organized Attack.

You mean the attack on vaping?

 

[zoiDman]

You mean the attack on vaping?

No. Paris.

 

[navigator2011]

You mean the attack on vaping?

No, the one on Paris. I heard they are executing hostages, one by one.

 

[Jman8]

My question was rhetorical, and appropriate, methinks.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

That makes sense, combined with some old wisdom from Hitler himself: "If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed."

Certainly the lies are getting quite big, aren't they?

Used that quote as the headline of one of my Deeming comments. It comes home to me as I sit here watching the USA play soccer at Busch stadium. Upon entering we had to dump all metal into trays so we could go through the detectors. Upon seeing my 2 mods the security guy stated in no uncertain terms that I was not to use my electronic cigarettes in the stadium unless I go to gate 4 with the smokers. He then repeated it 2 more times until I verbally acknowledged him. As I sit here eyes watering from the halipinos in the nachos next to me and the drunk guy behind me spilling alcohol and mustard (which even the smell makes me nauseous) on me I must remind myself not to use one of my electronic cigarettes so I do not offend any children or zealots that might be present.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Agree with your recourses. Not even main point of this post, but discussion on this thread (like many others) is very pessimistic as of late. I understand why, and don't fully disagree with it. But it is a bit defeating in many ways, since it is few hundred little people against what we identify as Big Whatever.

To not note underground market as recourse is I think a disservice (at worst) and dumb politically. When I just communicated with WH, I brought up underground market. It was my main point. I think it needs to be a main point before pessimism. After it is mentioned, feel free to paint as dark of a picture that you think is realistic. But to not realize it will, in fact, be a recourse is hard to get behind. If you are DIYing right now or stocking up, then you are essentially admitting to being a participant in the underground market, so just take the extra step and note it as viable recourse.

Main point of this post that I wanted to write is that I find the "what to do" list challenging. Might be where my pessimism comes in. Of the 7 items listed, 5 of them are relying on political types, and 2 of them are educating others. Thus far, relying on political types hasn't seemed to paid off any dividends and we are living in a time when R's control congress. They really ought to be able to change something/anything from FDA full assault, and if they don't then I don't see why in a future we'd think it would be different.

And the real main point for me is that with educating, I find it challenging to educate friends, family and co-workers. Not impossible and I'm not going to stop doing it. But people very often appear to have their mind made up. You see this on the forums in all the threads where some of the same people in this thread are trying to play the angle of "maybe it is very dangerous to be vaping" where in this thread they wanna post links to back up how utterly safe vaping is, and why no politician ought to be attacking it unless they have solid evidence to demonstrate otherwise. But if we can't even convince fellow vapers (let's state that again for emphasis), if we can't even convince FELLOW VAPERS, about relative harmlessness of vaping, then really how are we going to educate non-vapers who have to choose between what we are saying (backed up with scientific data for our points) and their version of "this is what science has said about your eCig thingy?"

I'm still going to educate regardless of how today goes politically or 10 years from now, but I do think it is challenging because people do really appear to have their mind made up. To the degree that seems questionable/debatable, I'll gladly post links to 10 other threads right here on ECF, and you can bring in your magical powers of education and let's see how you fare on convincing fellow vapers on these points we then later have to persuade non-vapers to reconsider their take on things.

Jman, I might have written your post. First ECF thread I participated on when I quit concerning public vaping was for me more a study of the social ethic in the community. I was astonished to find what you allude to is true — half of us are plagued by the stigmatization of being smokers. There seems to be no way of tearing it out. Only acknowledging that it is there impinging itself on our judgement. Instilling in us a fear and sense of illegitimacy.

Like you and for the remainder of my life I will continue to vape…as a matter of free speech.

Good luck all.

 

[Kent C]

half of us most are plagued by the stigmatization of being smokers.

And some thought we escaped that...