Vaping for nicotine advantages?

[VNeil]

Andria, in post#20 mosspa said he is vaping undiluted and unflavored 48mg base. So he means "50mg". The stuff most of us would cut down 50-75% or more. He's really hard core!

Actually, he is just doing something more like we used to do as kids, a little here and there every day, that we can't talk about here. Getting a very intense "hit" and then stopping for a few hours. Where many of us are (at least me!) more or less chain vaping all day, very regularly. At least those of us free to do so all day. I was an almost 3 pack a day smoker for decades at least, and smoked for 40 years. So I should have a very high tolerance for nicotine and don't get the alcohol induced effects mosspa describes.

And I am very sure that when I quit cigarettes 6 months ago I had true withdrawal symptoms. Not just badly missing a habit. It was surely a combination of both but I think I accurately broke those two things apart. And that was true whenever i tried to quit smoking previously. And I think I would have had great difficulty quitting smoking even a couple years after I started, although I never gave it a serious attempt.

 

[mudram99]

Vaccine (I've got to research this a bit)? I would be interested in seeing the rationale for this. I could see how one might develop a nicotine drug analogous to Ro15-4513 and ethanol, but an actual vaccine? Vaccines inoculate against invading bacteria and other microorganisms, to which the body can generate an immune response. Something that resembled a vaccine to a chemical compound such as nicotine would necessitate some genetic manipulation that somehow affected expression or up-/down-regulation of brain ACh nicotinic receptors. I can't imagine how this could ever be a good thing, especially given the lack of data to suggest the occurrence of nicotine dependency in the first place.

First off thank you for your contributions here! You are dealing with some of the questions many have, and some don't even know who to ask! I was wondering if the method approached from drugs like Chantix are what he is referring to?

 

[mudram99]

Andria, in post#20 mosspa said he is vaping undiluted and unflavored 48mg base. So he means "50mg". The stuff most of us would cut down 50-75% or more. He's really hard core!

Actually, he is just doing something more like we used to do as kids, a little here and there every day, that we can't talk about here. Getting a very intense "hit" and then stopping for a few hours. Where many of us are (at least me!) more or less chain vaping all day, very regularly. At least those of us free to do so all day. I was an almost 3 pack a day smoker for decades at least, and smoked for 40 years. So I should have a very high tolerance for nicotine and don't get the alcohol induced effects mosspa describes.

And I am very sure that when I quit cigarettes 6 months ago I had true withdrawal symptoms. Not just badly missing a habit. It was surely a combination of both but I think I accurately broke those two things apart. And that was true whenever i tried to quit smoking previously. And I think I would have had great difficulty quitting smoking even a couple years after I started, although I never gave it a serious attempt.

VNeil, I was back tracking looking for that post to document for her too, when He responded himself!

 

[rolygate]

Most vapers seem to use ecigs in a very different way to cigarettes. Some use them in the same way. I vape 36mg, but just 4 times or so per day, exactly as I smoked. Each session is longer though.

It's a free country

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah, I didn't see that earlier post about vaping undiluted -- sorry! Just seems odd to me; anything over 11mg would have me facedown over the toilet.

But then, yes, I vape all day, all thru the day -- the only thing that stopped me doing that with cigarettes was having to run outdoors every time I wanted a smoke -- like every half-hour in moderate weather, hourly in cold or extremely hot weather. But taking it outdoors was the only thing got me off a 3+-pk-a-day habit; I went down to 2 pks a day as soon as I started taking it outdoors, and over the next 10 yrs, decreased to 1 pk a day (mainly thx to the increasing price!), which is about where I was when I started vaping and quit smoking. If I had a job outside the home, I'd probably just go with 12mg, maybe as much as 15mg, for my smoke breaks.

Andria

 

[doctrinidad]

This is the first I have heard of these benifits being associated to nicotine I would love a link to any study's

 

[mosspa]

This is the first I have heard of these benifits being associated to nicotine I would love a link to any study's

Post #50 of this thread contains a zip file with 20 such abstracts and citations.

 

[Valtorta]

must say ~ very Intriguing

 

[klynnn]

I spent 34 years as an air traffic controller before I retired. We used to be able to smoke in the radar control rooms until about 10 years after the strike. The room back then was completely filled with smoke all the time. I truly believe a lot of us were off our game for quite awhile after that. I find nicotine helps me concentrate and handle stress better. I just wish vaping had been available back then.

 

[sofarsogood]

must say ~ very Intriguing

neu·ro·sci·ence
\-ˈsī-ən(t)s\
noun
: the scientific study of nerves and especially of how nerves affect learning and behavior
Full Definition
:a branch (as neurophysiology) of the life sciences that deals with the anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, or molecular biology of nerves and nervous tissue and especially with their relation to behavior and learning
— neu·ro·sci·en·tif·ic \-ˌsī-ən-ˈti-fik\ adjective
— neu·ro·sci·en·tist \-ˈsī-ən-tist\ noun
First Use: 1963

 

[AndriaD]

I spent 34 years as an air traffic controller before I retired. We used to be able to smoke in the radar control rooms until about 10 years after the strike. The room back then was completely filled with smoke all the time. I truly believe a lot of us were off our game for quite awhile after that. I find nicotine helps me concentrate and handle stress better. I just wish vaping had been available back then.

As soon as I read this, I had a flashback to "Airplane" -- Lloyd Bridges' "I picked a bad day to quit ____."

Andria

 

[sofarsogood]

When people talk about how they quit smoking with vaping there are two scenerios that I've heard the most. The day a person starts vaping is the last day they smoke a cigarette. The other scenario is, the first day of vaping, cigarettes decline to 4-5 per day with no apparent will power and stay there and during the first few days there is a zero cigarette day. I'm somebody who had the seccond reaction. The 4 cigarettes a day was astonishing and had to be pure chemistry. My perception was that vaping was satisfying 80% of my cravings. I settled on that percentage because my cigarettes decclined 80%. If nicotine alone is not habit forming how does it supress the smoking urge so successfully? May be I'm not accouting for the physical activity of smoking. When I finally let my cigarettes run out I judged my withdrawal symptoms from those last 4 cigarettes to be about 20% of what I might have experienced without vaping. It was a lot easier to resist the cravings because I felt certain that vaping made me relapse proof. The worst that could happen is I would relapse back to 4 cigs a day.

 

[rolygate]

If nicotine alone is not habit forming how does it suppress the smoking urge so successfully?

It is impossible to create dependence on pure nicotine clinically, in persons who have never consumed tobacco. High doses (equivalent to 18 cigarettes a day) have been given daily for 6 months to never-smokers, in clinical trials, and no person has ever exhibited any sign of withdrawal or dependence.

Tobacco and tobacco smoke contain 9,600 compounds (Rodgman, Perfetti 2013) so when we talk about smoking, it is a discussion about thousands of interactions, potentiation and synergism (boosting and multiplication of the effects by deliberate engineering for maximum 'brand loyalty' - or addiction if you prefer). We used to assume that nicotine was the main or only compound that created dependence on smoking, and there were multiple reasons for this: ignorance, commercial benefit [1], and simple ideology. We can also use the term addiction accurately for smoking, as it is a powerful dependence with significant risk of harm.

Nicotine dependence is created by tobacco consumption and especially by smoking. However, addictions are complex things, and none more so than smoking. There are a multiplicity of physical and chemical dependencies, and any single one or combination can apply to any given individual. For example: why do some smokers still experience powerful cravings even when using a replica cigarette (ecig) that delivers enough nicotine to make their head spin? All possible physical routines are well-replicated, and sufficient nicotine is clearly being supplied. Answer: complex chemical dependencies that tend to differ per individual. For some it is the WTAs, for some it's other compounds (maybe the MAOIs) or interactions. For some it might just be the carbon monoxide, we are told. Some smokers can successfully switch to ecigs on Day 1 with no trouble at all, for others it takes a year; others fail because the cravings cannot be stopped.

It's complicated, but nicotine is only part of the story. It is clinically impossible to make people dependent on NRTs, so simple solutions to smoking addiction are not going to be universally successful. For some people, nicotine was the main dependency resulting from smoking, although no measurable dependency on pure nicotine can be created - it was caused by the chemical cocktail in tobacco smoke.




---------------
[1] People like Fagerstrom and Benowitz basically built their careers on creating the nicotine addiction myth. You should hear what Prof Molimard says about that...

 

[AndriaD]

When people talk about how they quit smoking with vaping there are two scenerios that I've heard the most. The day a person starts vaping is the last day they smoke a cigarette. The other scenario is, the first day of vaping, cigarettes decline to 4-5 per day with no apparent will power and stay there and during the first few days there is a zero cigarette day. I'm somebody who had the seccond reaction. The 4 cigarettes a day was astonishing and had to be pure chemistry. My perception was that vaping was satisfying 80% of my cravings. I settled on that percentage because my cigarettes decclined 80%. If nicotine alone is not habit forming how does it supress the smoking urge so successfully? May be I'm not accouting for the physical activity of smoking. When I finally let my cigarettes run out I judged my withdrawal symptoms from those last 4 cigarettes to be about 20% of what I might have experienced without vaping. It was a lot easier to resist the cravings because I felt certain that vaping made me relapse proof. The worst that could happen is I would relapse back to 4 cigs a day.

With me, it took a month, both times. The first time, I applied no real "force" -- just substituted more vapes for more smokes, until it was down to 3 a day, at which point, those 3 tasted HORRIBLE. By applying actual effort, I was able to remove those as well.

The 2nd time was more of an effort, to get it done as quickly as I could, because I knew the longer I carried on smoking, the harder it would ultimately be to a) make the decision, and b) make it stick. Also, probably due to the intestinal illness/surgery, I required WTA the 2nd time around.

I don't have much nic dependence at all -- I started at 6mg, and have never gone higher than 11.5mg; now somewhere between 9 and 10.5mg (9 in the magma, 10.5 in the kayfuns) -- but I have IBS, and a lifelong history of depression and anxiety, so I'm hoping I CAN eventually get free of WTA. My one-point-a-month decrease that I started in January, is going well, no ill effects or withdrawal pangs with the 2 percentage points I've decreased, so I should be fine to drop another point in March.

But for me, even if I had to get my nic from patches, I'd still need to vape; I found out years ago that patches don't do it for me; I require a placebo *activity* not just a substance, so thank god for how closely vaping mirrors smoking, in sensation.

Andria

 

[Vap3Queen]

I too am a reformed smoker. If you think about all the chems in cigs there are probably some in there causing senior moments, concentration issues, and of course, insomnia. I feel better in all aspects since I started vaping (quit cigs in 2009!) And I noticed less insomnia since quitting. I also don't wake up feeling like I have an elephant on my chest!

 

[rolygate]

It was asked: how much nicotine cigarettes deliver.

Nicotine in tobacco
From memory: tobacco cigarettes have about a 5% transfer efficiency. In the recent past they contained on average 18mg of tobacco before combustion (the range was from about 13mg to 23mg), and delivered an average of 1mg to the smoke. The smoke from 1 cigarette contained about 1mg of nicotine (plus a large number of other compounds).

Going back a decade or two, cigarettes were stronger, and you could multiply those figures by up to 2.

More recently, cigarettes have become weaker, and the smoke now contains around 0.6mg (and lower) to 0.8mg at most, in the majority of brands. Therefore a 15 a day smoker (about average) receives about, say, 15 x 0.7mg = 10.5mg nicotine daily.

The plasma nic measurements of smokers have also fallen over the years. Recently, it was common to see plasma nic measured at 25ng for a smoker midday after several cigarettes. In the past, 50ng was recorded, and it is said 60ng was seen sometimes. Today we may commonly see 15 - 20ng and the range is about 8 to 30ng.

Relative quantities
Vapers consume at least 3 times as much nicotine as smokers do, in order to get a satisfactory result. This indicates an issue with the bioavailability of vaped nicotine: clearly, smoking it works better, as far as delivery goes. It is likely that the difference is due to the delivery mechanism for smoke particles vs mist aerosol. Most of the literature reports that vapour particles are ten times the size of smoke particles (10 microns vs 1 micron), and some reports say it is the other way round. Therefore we could say the particle size issue is undecided at present. However it certainly appears that smoke is absorbed better or processed more efficiently, and this accords with the particle size of smoke being smaller and travelling more deeply (and uniformly) into the lungs.

Amount per puff
Another factor is that vapour contains far less nicotine than tobacco smoke. Laugesen first measured this in 2009, and found that (with his equipment and protocols) there is a factor 10 difference: he reported that smoke contains 10 times as much nicotine as vapour (103mcg vs 10mcg per puff, from memory). Things have changed but there is still at least a factor 2 difference. Therefore you would need to inhale twice as much vapour as smoke, for the same result. However, since we know that vapers must consume far more nicotine in vaping than in smoking, daily, to get an equivalent result (and it seems about 3 or 4 times as much is required), then it is clear that smoking is far more efficient as far as the delivery vehicle is concerned.

With me so far? Complicated, isn't it

Now let's make it a lot worse.

Plasma nicotine measurements
And the final part of the equation is that, when we measure the relative values of plasma nicotine for smokers and vapers, and we can figure a rough way of equating the two to get the same result [1], we find that vapers have a plasma nic level on average about 33% to 40% lower than smokers. That is to say, if a smoker measures 18ng then a vaper will measure about 13ng.

So now we have to somehow figure this into the mix: it takes a lot more vaped nicotine than smoked nicotine to get to Point A [2], but once we're there, there's less nic in the bloodstream when vaping than when smoking (even though 3x more was delivered).

Hope that clears it up




----------------------
[1] This has been accomplished (to date) by testing dual-users on different days, and by an overall examination of the relative values for the two groups.

[2] An arbitrary point where a dual-user who both smokes and vapes will report that it feels about the same. For example after 2 hours in the morning, on alternate days, when either vaping or smoking. OK, it's rough - but it's very consistent.

 

[mudram99]

It was asked: how much nicotine cigarettes deliver.

Nicotine in tobacco
From memory: tobacco cigarettes have about a 20% transfer efficiency. In the recent past they contained on average 18mg of tobacco before combustion (the range was from 13mg to 23mg), and delivered an average of 1mg to the smoke. The smoke from 1 cigarette contained about 1mg of nicotine (plus a large number of other compounds).

Going back a decade or two, cigarettes were stronger, and you could multiply those figures by up to 2.

More recently, cigarettes have become weaker, and the smoke now contains around 0.6mg (and lower) to 0.8mg at most, in the majority of brands. Therefore a 15 a day smoker (about average) receives about, say, 15 x 0.7mg = 10.5mg nicotine daily.

The plasma nic measurements of smokers have also fallen over the years. Recently, it was common to see plasma nic measured at 25ng for a smoker midday after several cigarettes. In the past, 50ng was recorded, and it is said 60ng was seen sometimes. Today we may commonly see 15 - 20ng and the range is 8 to 30ng.

Relative quantities
Vapers consume at least 3 times as much nicotine as smokers do, in order to get a satisfactory result. This indicates an issue with the bioavailability of vaped nicotine: clearly, smoking it works better, as far as delivery goes. It is likely that the difference is due to the delivery mechanism for smoke particles vs mist aerosol. Most of the literature reports that vapour particles are ten times the size of smoke particles (10 microns vs 1 micron), and some reports say it is the other way round. Therefore we could say the particle size issue is undecided at present. However it certainly appears that smoke is absorbed better or processed more efficiently, and this accords with the particle size of smoke being smaller and travelling more deeply (and uniformly) into the lungs.

Amount per puff
Another factor is that vapour contains far less nicotine than tobacco smoke. Laugesen first measured this in 2009, and found that (with his equipment and protocols) there is a factor 10 difference: he reported that smoke contains 10 times as much nicotine as vapour (103mcg vs 10mcg per puff, from memory). Things have changed but there is still at least a factor 2 difference. Therefore you would need to inhale twice as much vapour as smoke, for the same result. However, since we know that vapers must consume far more nicotine in vaping than in smoking, daily, to get an equivalent result (and it seems about 3 or 4 times as much is required), then it is clear that smoking is far more efficient as far as the delivery vehicle is concerned.

With me so far? Complicated, isn't it

Now let's make it a lot worse.

Plasma nicotine measurements
And the final part of the equation is that, when we measure the relative values of plasma nicotine for smokers and vapers, and we can figure a rough way of equating the two to get the same result [1], we find that vapers have a plasma nic level on average about 33% to 40% lower than smokers. That to say, if a smoker measures 18ng then a vaper will measure about 13ng.

So now we have to somehow figure this into the mix: it takes a lot more vaped nicotine than smoked nicotine to get to Point A [2], but once we're there, there's less nic in the bloodstream when vaping than when smoking (even though 3x more was delivered).

Hope that clears it up




----------------------
[1] This has been accomplished (to date) by testing dual-users on different days, and by an overall examination of the relative values for the two groups.

[2] An arbitrary point where a dual-user who both smokes and vapes will report that it feels about the same. For example after 2 hours in the morning, on alternate days, when either vaping or smoking. OK, it's rough - but it's very consistent.

Clear as mud, said mudram. just joking that is some great info both you and mosspa are sharing. Thanks to both of you!

 

[mosspa]

For some people, nicotine was the main dependency resulting from smoking, although no measurable dependency on pure nicotine can be created - it was caused by the chemical cocktail in tobacco smoke.

Not necessarily, if you look at smoking in terms of operant reinforcement. If nicotine is viewed as one of the natural reinforcers associated with the behavior of smoking, then nicotine, and any other natural reinforcer associated with smoking (e.g., any of the other thousands of constituents), will lead to an increase in habit strength. Habits are what form as a behavior is continually reinforced, and when you look at the reinforcement pattern over decades of smoking, one would anticipate the development of a very strong habit. That what seems to be described as dependence in smoking doesn't appear to exist in young people who smoked for relatively short durations of time (e.g., 4-5 years or less) suggest, to me anyway, that there is no real physical dependence involved in smoking. Extinction of very strong habits is often accompanied by negative emotional responding (i.e., psychological dependence) but I don't believe that this, necessarily, has anything to do with what is actually in cigarette smoke, apart from its value as a reinforcer. It can be explained by the whole behavioral sequence of smoking: from reaching to the pack, selecting the cigarette, lighting the cigarette, drawing the smoke into the mouth, inhaling, and expelling the remaining smoke interacting with the complex discriminative stimulus associated with the environments in which smoking is most likely to occur (e.g., in a bedroom, in a bar in front of a beer, in a car, etc.). This explains the cravings of 'ex-smokers' that are restricted to particular environments, among other things..

 

[mosspa]

But for me, even if I had to get my nic from patches, I'd still need to vape; I found out years ago that patches don't do it for me; I require a placebo *activity* not just a substance, so thank god for how closely vaping mirrors smoking, in sensation.

Andria

That is exactly what I was alluding to, not in just in 'sensation', but in similarity to the whole behavioral and sensory experience sequences involved in smoking. In your case, vaping is not a placebo, it is an almost perfect duplication of the habit you formed when you were a smoker. You are essentially duplicating your original habit but with a new natural reinforcer, the vapor. Once habits get learned to this degree of strength, I think there is probably more importance placed by the brain on the act of vaping, and less to the natural reinforcers in the vapor acting as a substitute for the smoke that initially reinforced the response. That is, the act of vaping is what continues to reinforce vaping behavior. This partially explains why vaping is a successful substitute for smoking, even in the presence of much lower levels of natural reinforcers (e.g., nicotine) in the vapor. It might also explain why people like to flavor their juice with flavors that produce appetitive (e.g., positive or pleasant) sensations. Adding flavorings to the juice would increase the reinforcement value of the vapor.

 

[AndriaD]

That is exactly what I was alluding to, not in just in 'sensation', but in similarity to the whole behavioral and sensory experience sequences involved in smoking. In your case, vaping is not a placebo, it is an almost perfect duplication of the habit you formed when you were a smoker. You are essentially duplicating your original habit but with a new natural reinforcer, the vapor. Once habits get learned to this degree of strength, I think there is probably more importance placed by the brain on the act of vaping, and less to the natural reinforcers in the vapor, as a substitute for the smoke that initially reinforced the response. That is, the act of vaping is what continues to reinforce vaping behavior. This partially explains why vaping is a successful substitute for smoking, even in the presence of much lower levels of natural reinforcers (e.g., nicotine) in the vapor. It might also explain why people like to flavor their juice with flavors that produce appetitive (e.g., positive or pleasant sensations). Adding flavorings to the juice would increase the reinforcement value of the vapor.

Yes, that's all true; I reinforced the habit with 39 yrs of smoking, so it's really no surprise that patches just don't do it for me -- likely gum, lozenges, pills wouldn't either -- it's the *activity* I crave, rather than the nicotine, though there is certainly a large physical-dependance component in my enduring need of the minor alkaloids and MAOIs -- if it were possible to get *just* the minor alkaloids and MAOIs without the accompanying nicotine, I daresay I could shake off my nic dependence in < 30 days, possibly even far less -- I managed a withdrawal from a 10 cup a day coffee habit in about 10 days. Alas, they are only available as "WTA", which is about 95% nicotine.

Andria