Vaping Hypocricy?

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Fulgurant

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Want to know why you can't carry an open container with reckless abandon down a crowded street? Because some other ....... who came before you acted a fool and caused someone in a position of power to care enough to outlaw it. If we "vape wherever we feel like" without consideration for others, we are that ........ I vape at work. I've stealh-vaped in restaurants. When I smoked I made sure I didn't do it near kids and I never blew smoke at someone. That's just common courtesy, it's not being entitled or pretentious. And the fact that your post actually got likes? That's really pathetic and just shows why we are not taken seriously. This shouldn't even be up for debate. vape respectfully and responsibly - don't act out with it. There are thousands of others who do so responsible and we are depending on everyone else to not be that ....... who came before us.

I am not aware of any post in this thread advocating openly discourteous behavior; most people, I suspect, actually agree with your position on how to approach the issue in public places.

That said, Baldr most likely received "Likes" because of his rebuttal to the vaping-is-not-a-right argument, which is specious and gratuitously inflammatory. Of course you don't have a constitutionally protected right to vape (regardless of situation, in other words). You don't have an explicitly guaranteed right to wear red shirts either, but that doesn't mean that any arbitrary restriction on red clothing is justified, or that lovers of red apparel should spend undue time and effort worrying about random bystanders' irrational distaste of the color red.

Again, no one disagrees that private property owners have a right to restrict or prohibit vaping, for any reason they choose (or for no reason at all). Beyond that though, unless there is a compelling scientific basis to worry about health risks, no one else -- not the government, not your nosy neighbor at the bus stop -- has the right to dictate your behavior.

You're absolutely correct that in most situations, courtesy rules the day. But courtesy has very little to do with rights. Quite the opposite, in fact: the First Amendment is basically purpose-built to ensure your right to offend people, and to ensure their right to express their outrage, whether it's justified or not. When people confuse matters of courtesy with matters of justice -- when they demand the intrusive and coercive interference of government to settle matters of pure preference -- when that happens, we have a huge problem that goes way beyond vaping.

Better just to leave the right talk for a different discussion, is all I'm saying. That scantly relevant subject certainly hasn't led to anything good here.
 
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Sane Asylum

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We don't need official bans or even self imposed bans.

What we need as vapers is to show some consideration and restraint. Be respectful of those around you. Ask if they mind. Consider that while the liquid you are using may be tasty to you, the aroma may be pungent to others. My girlfriend loves her Maple Rum Tobacco flavor, but she knows that it does tend to stink up the place after a bit, so she takes it to another room. Her favorite flavor does also leave a thick after effect in the air that one can physically taste when they walk in the room several minutes later.

While we have a right to do things, we don't always do it out of consideration for others. You have a right to not be forced to wear deodorant, but most people do as to not offend the noses of others.

Don't be militant about your right. Be vigilant. But also be respectful. The more you impose your right on others for the wrong reasons, the more willing they will be to have it taken away from you.

Great observation. And it's not just about vaping. Here in the US, it just seems that people are more and more without respect and consideration and so much more anger, whether they're on the road or in a store, etc. Road rage, the knockout game, people punching one another for a black Friday deal.....
 

Baldr

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Someone like me? That's an interesting way to put it. Perhaps you've not read my other posts but I am about as fair and grounded as it gets.

That would be easier to believe if you weren't claiming that you have a right to tell me when and where I can vape, and that I don't have any right to vape at all. Yes, I do notice that now you've changed your fail-argument to "you don't have a constitutionally protected right to vape", which is a completely different argument.

You may hate it, but this is how things work. If there isn't a rule against it, you can do it. I don't have to stop vaping in public because some guy on the internet told me that I don't have the right to vape. Yes, they can (and likely will) pass laws to limit it. Yes, there are things that are legal which are still rude. Yes, if you are in a business or someones house and they ask you not to vape, their rights over their property should mean that you don't vape at that location. Yes, even if someone else is just visiting (another customer for instance) and ask you not to vape, you should comply just to keep them happy, assuming they are making a reasonable request.

None of those mean I have to stop because you told me that I don't have a right to vape, and as long as you keep making that argument, I will keep disagreeing. As the saying goes, "You are not the boss of me".
 

toddrhodes

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Excellent post, thank you for that. I took offense to the "people like you" comment, much as he may have taken offense to the vaping-is-not-a-right comment. I am on this person's side and he feels the need to lash out at me, and I find that to be sad and emotional behavior. Perhaps I instigated the response, I was on my phone and had to settle for a terse reply. But I had the impression from some of the posts I read, none of which were actually from Baldr, that, to me, basically said "if it's legal, I'm doing it wherever I please" and that mindset has to stop. I agree wholeheartedly that we have to "fight back" so to say, but we have to do so responsibly and be the bigger men in this fight. We have to show people who have no understanding of vaping that we can carry out our behavior and have zero impact on those other people's lives. These are people who are spoonfed BS articles and live in areas that are banning vaping for no reason beyond a lack of understanding or, worse yet, their community leaders are pandering to a higher power with more money lining their pockets. Now, whether or not respecting other people's space will actually resonate with them, I have no idea if it will or not. But if we are aggressive at all, all bets are off.

As to your analogy about wearing red shirts, I do understand what you're saying but in that very instance (and I realize it was just an example, but I am going to expand on it), certain colors associated with gang activity very frequently get banned for dubious reasons. This is back to a case of some ..... acting the fool before us who impedes some basic convenience we should be allowed to have. I can't wear tennis shoes or white shirts - yes, plain white shirts - to many bars because of gang activity. It's absolutely stupid, but sometimes random associations happen and all we can do is abide by that business owner's choice. But again, many of the responses I've read in this thread and admittedly I have not read the whole thread, but many posters agree that it should be up to individual business owners and that decision has to be sacred to us, just as you said. My point is that "guilt by association" is not unprecedented and although it is oftentimes unfair, it is a reality these days.

Your last paragraph is very poignant, but I am of the mindset that I would rather avoid a problem if I can, rather than expose myself to the whims of a stranger if I can at all help myself. People are very strange, I have found. I read a thread on here the other day where a person was vaping, I believe outdoors, and some stranger came up to them and said something along the lines of "How dare you blow that in my face!" when the vaper in question had no intention of it, in fact the person complaining brought that upon themselves by walking up to the person vaping. Neither person is technically in the wrong, but I would rather play it safe and just not open myself up to that kind of behavior. At that point, neither justice nor respect is in play, just random bat....ness of a confused and obviously angry stranger created a hostile situation. It sucks, but it is the world we have.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts and civility. Vape on!

Todd
 

celticluvr

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    I sure wouldn't want to inject nic, but I certainly wouldn't have a problem with vaping low mg nic if I was still of child bearing age.

    No one had better tell me what I can or cannot do with my own body. I would hope that Edd would have the consideration NOT to dictate rules to his woman.

    And this basically gets to the crux of this issue. When did the human race decide to dictate what an individual can do or not do with a product that is sold and purchased LEGALLY? You can place warnings (I'm in serious doubt about any warnings anymore after seeing all the crap that has happened with ecigs) but do not tell me what I can or cannot do with my own body.

    ^^^^^ What she said +10000000>!
     

    Sane Asylum

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    If you have already noticed "that there are two threads here today..." your point in starting yet a third thread over a proven contentious topic would be... what? Rehashing this topic for the 147th time doesn't improve the odds of a more enlightened outcome. :facepalm:

    Maybe not but the fact is that there are fifteen pages of responses so there are posters here who are interested enough to further discuss my original post so there are people who are getting something out of it, including myself. If a poster, such as yourself, isn't interested or feels that a topic is being 'rehashed', you don't have to open the thread. That's what I do.
     

    toddrhodes

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    That would be easier to believe if you weren't claiming that you have a right to tell me when and where I can vape, and that I don't have any right to vape at all. Yes, I do notice that now you've changed your fail-argument to "you don't have a constitutionally protected right to vape", which is a completely different argument.

    You may hate it, but this is how things work. If there isn't a rule against it, you can do it. I don't have to stop vaping in public because some guy on the internet told me that I don't have the right to vape. Yes, they can (and likely will) pass laws to limit it. Yes, there are things that are legal which are still rude. Yes, if you are in a business or someones house and they ask you not to vape, their rights over their property should mean that you don't vape at that location. Yes, even if someone else is just visiting (another customer for instance) and ask you not to vape, you should comply just to keep them happy, assuming they are making a reasonable request.

    None of those mean I have to stop because you told me that I don't have a right to vape, and as long as you keep making that argument, I will keep disagreeing. As the saying goes, "You are not the boss of me".

    Baldr, I'm not sure how I conveyed any opinion that you have no right to vape. If it came across that way, I apologize. As I said beyond the snippet you quoted, I have vaped where I wasn't supposed to. I just try to keep it away from other people's sight and I respect those who politely ask me to do it elsewhere, or just not directly towards them. And lastly, I wasn't addressing you directly with my first post, so again my apologies if you took it that way.

    Todd
     

    Fyerwall

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    (Emphasis mine.)

    That may very well be true. It's also true that if you put two human beings in a sufficiently under-ventilated space together, the accumulation of carbon dioxide exhaled by both parties will eventually asphyxiate them. As you point out, though, that's not a useful observation; based on toxicology studies, the danger to primary users of e-cigarettes is well within OSHA air-quality standards. That means that directly inhaling the average e-cig's vapor is no more unsafe than breathing the ambient air in a federally compliant workplace.

    By extension, the danger to bystanders (non-primary users, or so-called second-hand vapers) is nonexistent in any otherwise-safe environment anyone's likely to inhabit. Arguments about extremely poor ventilation are at best irrelevant and at worst dishonest -- roughly on par, rhetorically, with claims that e-cigs contain chemicals found in anti-freeze. In other words, if poor ventilation is the problem, then fix the ventilation.

    (None of the above is aimed at you, Fyerwall; I'm just expanding on one portion of your post.)

    Aye, totally agree with you here. Sadly these wild claims and fear tactics are all the antis have. And its working for them so far, because everyone seems more interested in the worst case scenario.
     

    Fyerwall

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    Great observation. And it's not just about vaping. Here in the US, it just seems that people are more and more without respect and consideration and so much more anger, whether they're on the road or in a store, etc. Road rage, the knockout game, people punching one another for a black Friday deal.....

    Agreed.

    Here in the US it has become a 'ME' oriented society disguised in 'WE' rhetoric. Everyone is pretty much out for themselves be it for profit or praise. Problem with this whole vapor regulation thing is that there is a community who is more 'WE' oriented than 'ME' oriented which is why everyone is working double time to pass regulation - if they wait too long they fear people might start actually listening to us. Its why every country is striking at the same time. Every ruling body and anti-smoking group knows people are starting to listen. That's why we suddenly have all these 'news' stories of exploding batteries and 'kids drinking e-juice to get high' popping up every 2 days. We just need continue working together and be a lot more vigilant.
     
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    RosaJ

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    I'm loading that pdf to see what you're talking about, but I'm just wondering if there is nicotine when it goes into your lungs, why do you think there isn't nicotine in it when it comes out of your lungs. Surely you aren't suggesting that 100% of the nicotine in the vapor is absorbed into your body.

    Please take the time and research the Burstyn/Drexel study and the studies done by Dr. Farsalinos. You can find them in the CASAA website.
     

    Sane Asylum

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    I think you may be mistaken. I had my first child in 1979 and I smoked in my hospital room. I had my second child in 1982 and I went to the smoking room on the same floor my room was located. Oh....they are both healthy. No birth defects.

    Nicotine, by itself, has just recently begun to be studied Apart from smoking. Please check your facts before putting that statement out on the Internet. Some unsuspecting soul will read that and take it as truth. Now if you're talking about smoking being unhealthy for newborns, that supposedly has been decided as fact. But then again, there are a lot of people that were born to smokers and have no health issues. And another little known, but slowly getting out there, fact: second hand smoke isn't really that harmful :shock: It was an untruth meant to scare smokers into quitting.

    It's interesting that you bring this up. I've been doing a lot of googling trying to find information about nicotine itself and in the process have come across numerous articles that question the validity of the the effects of second hand smoke. More and more I've come to the conclusion that statistics produced about smoking and second hand smoking are being blatantly manipulated. It's the old saying: lies, more lies and then there are statistics. I'm not saying there isn't serious harm, obviously, but it seems that if a person smoked or a person was around smoking, smoking is the cause of their illness or death.

    I've become so tired of many of our government officials presuming that they need to be our nannies and twist the truth for my own good and that of my children.
     

    Robino1

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    It's interesting that you bring this up. I've been doing a lot of googling trying to find information about nicotine itself and in the process have come across numerous articles that question the validity of the the effects of second hand smoke. More and more I've come to the conclusion that statistics produced about smoking and second hand smoking are being blatantly manipulated. It's the old saying: lies, more lies and then there are statistics. I'm not saying there isn't serious harm, obviously, but it seems that if a person smoked or a person was around smoking, smoking is the cause of their illness or death.

    I've become so tired of many of our government officials presuming that they need to be our nannies and twist the truth for my own good and that of my children.

    Sadly a few months ago the term third hand smoke was being introduced by the ANTZ. I've not heard much more on if it is being widely accepted as fact so hopefully it is not. It is amazing how manipulative those ANTZ are.

    As far as illness caused by smoking, how can it be 100% conclusive that smoking caused the illness? We are all genetically predisposed to have something or not. It is entirely possible that a smoker who gets cancer would have been genetically going to get cancer even if they never smoked. Then you have smokers who live to be 90. Even heart issues. How many times do you hear about people who have died from a heart attack that were very athletic and did everything right? I know personally a few, unfortunately.

    Yes, there probably is a greater risk when you smoke. But common sense says if it were truly that bad, our population would be far fewer people on this planet and there wouldn't be so many old people still with us. Granted, the medical industry (yeah, it is now an industry in my mind) plays a role in keeping us alive longer. Living in the retirement state, I see a LOT of older folks and they are still quite active. I'm surprised though. Especially given that all that second hand smoke was so very dangerous. Those people that I see actively participating in life, lived when smoking was everywhere. And I mean EVERYWHERE. Doctors offices, stores, beauty parlors, airplanes, everyone's houses...the list is endless.

    Rant over. Sorry about that.
     

    Uma

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    "It is of paramount importance that government and trusted health authorities provide accurate and truthful information about the relative risks of smoking and alternatives to smoking. If the public continues to be misled about the risks of THR products, millions of smokers will be dissuaded from switching to these much less hazardous alternatives. One of us recently wrote that, “It’s time to be honest with the 50 million Americans, and hundreds of millions around the world, who use tobacco. The benefits they get from tobacco are very real. It’s time to abandon the myth that tobacco is devoid of benefits, and to focus on how we can help smokers continue to derive those benefits with a safer delivery system” [95]"
    A fresh look at tobacco harm reduction: the case for the electronic cigarette

    "There are data suggesting that nicotine may be beneficial in treating ulcerative colitis [30] and Tourette syndrome [31]. Other conditions for which nicotine is being considered as treatment include memory impairment, attention deficit disorder, depression, and Parkinson’s disease [32]. Regarding long-term use, even though nicotine is a potential toxin, it appears to be well-tolerated during weeks and months of nicotine medication therapy without evidence of serious adverse health effects [10]. "
    A fresh look at tobacco harm reduction: the case for the electronic cigarette
     

    emus

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    "It is of paramount importance that government and trusted health authorities provide accurate and truthful information about the relative risks of smoking and alternatives to smoking. If the public continues to be misled about the risks of THR products, millions of smokers will be dissuaded from switching to these much less hazardous alternatives. One of us recently wrote that, “It’s time to be honest with the 50 million Americans, and hundreds of millions around the world, who use tobacco. The benefits they get from tobacco are very real. It’s time to abandon the myth that tobacco is devoid of benefits, and to focus on how we can help smokers continue to derive those benefits with a safer delivery system” [95]"
    A fresh look at tobacco harm reduction: the case for the electronic cigarette

    "There are data suggesting that nicotine may be beneficial in treating ulcerative colitis [30] and Tourette syndrome [31]. Other conditions for which nicotine is being considered as treatment include memory impairment, attention deficit disorder, depression, and Parkinson’s disease [32]. Regarding long-term use, even though nicotine is a potential toxin, it appears to be well-tolerated during weeks and months of nicotine medication therapy without evidence of serious adverse health effects [10]. "
    A fresh look at tobacco harm reduction: the case for the electronic cigarette

    I feel confident that smoke kills the lungs.

    Years back I saw a documentary of a poor culture that suffered a high rate lung disease and lung cancer.
    This community cooked/heated using fire inside small hut w/o proper chimney.
    What a shame to suffer lung failure w/o sinful pleasure of smoking.
     

    gingersnaps

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    You say that like you don't own those things as much as the person next to you (and I'm only assuming you are a US resident - if not, then what I say next is very dependent on what country you are a citizen of and may not be true). You are the govt. You own those buildings and properties. You paid for them - your ancestors paid for them - your relatives paid for them - your descendents will pay for them - You own it, not some 'thing' called "government". We the People are "the government" and We the People own "the government" and it is up to us what "the government" can or can not do. Thinking the government is its own entity and has its own rights and is somehow something that deserves personhood and the rights that go along with the idea of humanity is simply incorrect. - The court house? You own it. The Federal building in your area - you own it. The National Parks and Monuments - yup, those are yours. The State Capitol - you may as well have your name on the deed. .... Those are all yours. And, they are mine too.

    I am very much from the us and what you say should be true but we all know the government or shall I say those who claim to be have been controlling our lives while the rest of us suffer and seem to say "please sir, may I have some more".
    IMO EVERYTHING should go to a vote of the people but it doesn't some ..... supposedly votes on our behalf most of the time and as much as we beg and plead with these idiots they do what they want.
    We try to vote for people we think will do thing how we prefer only to realize we've been lied to and stabbed in the back over and over again.
    I can go on and on and open a bigger debate but the point is we should be the government but if you look at reality we are not. and my post only shows that I believe our elected are severely overstepping their bounds.
     

    p.opus

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    I find this thread a little offensive but unlike others, I'm a big boy and I can handle to be offended. I don't expect you to stop on my account.

    As smokers, we watched for years as our rights were eroded to zero. We watched as studies on the dangers of second hand smoke were manipulated and our right to smoke outside in public was eliminated. We watched as our right to smoke in our own home and car was eliminated. We figured if we just nodded our heads and went along with it, the ANTZ would eventually be satisfied and leave us alone. Well, we know how well that's worked out.

    Now the same thing is happening to vapers. We are treated as smokers, even though we don't smoke. We are on the verge of our equipment being banned while the poison we switched from is still actively sold and taxed. We are told we should be concerned about second hand vape when studies show that there is no discernable health threat to second hand vape. We are told by supposedly educated health commissioners that if it looks like smoking it must be the same as smoking.

    Of particular interest was the incredible scientific insight provided by a mouthpiece for Tobacco Free Kids, regarding the use of e-cig. "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck".

    Yes. That is the deep scientific thesis that was brought forward as a reason to ban public vaping at a recent NYC council meeting discussing e-cigs. This is the thinking of our public health officials. We are told that if we want to stop smoking we must either purchase over-priced ineffective NRT treatments or extremely expensive and hazardous anti-depressants known to cause depression and suicidal thoughts.

    And with all this garbage, we have our own people who would ask us all to hide in the shadows as if we are bad people and hope the nice folks "who know better" will allow us to vape as long as we don't bother anyone. I've been down that road before. I know where it leads. That is why I won't go down without a fight this time.

    If you have a problem with vapor...deal with it. God knows I have to deal with the old bag who bathes in cheap purfume, the guy who bathes once a week whether he needs it or not. the guy with the annoying laugh, or the potbellied middle aged guy at the beach in the speedo. You moan and groan about a room full of vape and then go outside into the smog and pollution that is a normal part of your everyday existence. If you're that concerned, buy a surgical mask, I don't mind.

    If you can construct a half way logical platform on how e-juice that starts out made with materials that are all on their own considered non hazardous suddenly becomes poison once it is vaporized and mixed with the CO2 in my lungs then I'll listen to you. If you simply are offended because you see some white clouds coming out of my mouth, then deal with it, and look the other way. I guarantee you that if you go to a restaurant with a case with the sniffles, you are MUCH more of a public health hazard than I will ever be with my e-cig....(unless I have a case of the sniffles too...)
     
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    p.opus

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    I don't know if I believe it or not, but there have been studies to suggest nicotine causes birth defects and this warning about it does appear on a lot of nicotine products. I think, though I'd have to look at it again to be sure, but I think the last time I saw the warning was when I was purchasing my nic solution from Wizard. Even if there's the slightest chance it could, why would I want to risk it just to satiate my own desire to have a vape?

    Better stop eating potatoes then. They have nicotine in them. So does eggplant: According to a 1993 study in the New England Journal of Medicine, 10 grams of eggplant contains 1 µg (microgram) of nicotine -- roughly the same amount one gets from three hours of exposure to second hand smoke. Oh oh. Pregnant women can't eat eggplant. 10 grams of eggplant contains as much nicotine as THREE HOURS of exposure to second hand smoke.....BAN THE EGGPLANT!!!!!

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...key=09174147c440b96900667f3fef93fd3cd0100cee&
     
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