Vapor Flask V3 DNA40 Clone thread

[Croak]

So, I've got a bit of minor bad news about the Waidea flask. You knew it had to happen! I built a dual 28g coil around a 3mm rod. I tossed it on the waidea, set the temp to 450, the wattage to 40, and hit the fire button. It never got above about 280 degrees, and wouldn't fire more than 28 watts. So, basically, I got no vapor out of it.

I tossed it on my authentic Vaporshark, and it worked fine. So, it looks like this chip might have problems with a higher coil mass. Or...maybe it's the plume veil. I'll try another coil in it and see.

So what was the actual resistance of that coil?

 

[HolmanGT]

So what was the actual resistance of that coil?

I am with you Croak, it is kind of a quantum leap to assume it is the Chip Set in the Waidea. More information needed (???).

The chip set doesn't know how many coils are out their and actually could careless. The only thing it cares about is the total resistance.

 

[RainZG]

help please
I have bought this Kangix flask
VF 40W Style Temperature Control Variable Wattage Mod - Silver, 1~40W, 2 x 18650, Micro USB Charger, Upgraded Version - 3FVape

And now I cannot find anywhere hex key which I need in order to open flask and replace 510 connector.
Does anyone know which hex key I need for it and where could I order it(preferably from Europe)

 

[Croak]

help please
I have bought this Kangix flask
VF 40W Style Temperature Control Variable Wattage Mod - Silver, 1~40W, 2 x 18650, Micro USB Charger, Upgraded Version - 3FVape

And now I cannot find anywhere hex key which I need in order to open flask and replace 510 connector.
Does anyone know which hex key I need for it and where could I order it(preferably from Europe)

A T5 will work. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/21068-Scr...7-T8-T9-T10-T15-T15-T20-T25-T30-/271004570062

 

[lenon]

Ah well, I suppose it was too much to hope it would be completely perfect!

That said, according to pbusardo's discussions with Evolv, dual coil should not really be used for TC anyway. Or rather, you'd have to get the coils so precisely the same that in practice it's not practical.

Now clearly in your case that build did in fact work on a genuine Evolv. But as you were already at the limits of current TC's capabilities, I wonder if it's possible that it might not have worked on the genuine, either. Like whether just the act of removing it from the VF clone and putting it on the VS was enough to bring it back in tolerance. Even whether it moved slightly as you were re-attaching the Plume Veil.

Have you tried taking that same coil back off the VS and trying it again in the VF?

I mean it's pretty likely that there is indeed a slight difference in performance between genuine and the clone chips. But if that's applying to dual coil only, I for one am not too concerned because I wasn't really expecting dual coil to work anyway, even on a genuine dna 40 device.

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about dual coil, that's why I called it a minor bit of bad news.

Yeah, I've tried moving it back and forth several times with no luck on the flask. Both devices read it at exactly .1 ohms, so, I'm thinking, perhaps that was the issue. The authentic DNA40 has a lower limit of .1 when using nickel. It will fire anything below that, but will calculate and step down your requested wattage accordingly. Which is basically the behavior I was seeing out of the flask. Unfortunately, the wattage that it decided was appropriate was not enough to power the coil sitting on top of it.

Maybe internally it thought the wattage was below .1, while the Shark read it correctly and pumped the requested 40 watts into it. The coil is a little slow even at 40 watts. I'm pretty sure this is what happened, and it's a bug in the chip, and actually had nothing at all to do with the dual coils or the coil mass.

 

[lenon]

I am with you Croak, it is kind of a quantum leap to assume it is the Chip Set in the Waidea. More information needed (???).

The chip set doesn't know how many coils are out their and actually could careless. The only thing it cares about is the total resistance.

Notice in my post I attributed it to coil mass, which does make a difference. Dual coil is more mass than single coil. No, the chip doesn't care, but the implication was that it's not putting out the wattage that it claims it is. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Furthermore, as TheBloke pointed out, Dual vs Single actually *does* make a difference on temp control chips, as it measure the increase in resistance across the entire coil (or both coils) to calculate the temperature. If the two coils are not exactly the same resistance while resting at room temperature, then one will be hotter than the other. This could feasibly cause one coil to just suck power from the other while not getting hot enough to actually vaporize liquid, which would result in very poor overall coil performance.

Aside from all of that, when the device is set to 40 Watts, and it never puts out more than 28 without getting anywhere near the set temperature, I don't think it's a "quantum leap" to think it has something to do with the chip.

 

[RainZG]

A T5 will work. 21068 Screwdriver Torx Tool Set T2 T3 T4 T6 T5 T7 T8 T9 T10 T15 T15 T20 T25 T30 | eBay

tnx, I think I have that one at home

 

[Croak]

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about dual coil, that's why I called it a minor bit of bad news.

Yeah, I've tried moving it back and forth several times with no luck on the flask. Both devices read it at exactly .1 ohms, so, I'm thinking, perhaps that was the issue. The authentic DNA40 has a lower limit of .1 when using nickel. It will fire anything below that, but will calculate and step down your requested wattage accordingly. Which is basically the behavior I was seeing out of the flask. Unfortunately, the wattage that it decided was appropriate was not enough to power the coil sitting on top of it.

Maybe internally it thought the wattage was below .1, while the Shark read it correctly and pumped the requested 40 watts into it. The coil is a little slow even at 40 watts. I'm pretty sure this is what happened, and it's a bug in the chip, and actually had nothing at all to do with the dual coils or the coil mass.

I think they're both doing the same thing mate. An Evolv DNA40 board soft limits loads below 0.1 ohms, but doesn't necessarily show you what it decided the limit was. It's conservative though, staying below their coded amp limits. Could be the clone board is even more conservative.

40w at 0.099 is pulling ~21 amps and putting out 1.99v. 28w at 0.099 ohms is only pulling about 16a and 1.68v.

And guess what? 16 amps is Evolv's stated continuous amp limit (it'll go to 23a during preheat, just for a fraction of a second). More proof that the ChiNA40 doesn't have pre-heat?

Ohms Too Low: The resistance of the atomizer coil is too low for the current wattage setting. If this
happens, the DNA 40 will continue to fire, but will not be able to provide the desired wattage. The Ohms
Too Low message will continue to flash for a few seconds after the end of puff.

 

[Croak]

And on a related note, I've had my best, most consistent results staying on the higher resistance side of things. 0.2 ohms and up. For one, it's more forgiving of resistance shifts that occur during the life of a coil, and after refills, etc. And since you need to be using thinner wire, it gets to temp a lot quicker.

But the "common wisdom" of using 28ga Ni200 will make this damn near impossible for most build decks (and uses too much coil even if you can get it to fit). That "sweet spot" of 0.15 ohms is just (IMHO) an artifact of what's best for 28 gauge, not what's best overall.

Give 30 or 32 gauge a try. Pre-wrap it spaced around your cotton/rayon like you would a silica wick if you find it's too fragile to wrap then wick. It won't be Instagram worthy, but you might not give a damn about how photogenic it is, if it works.

 

[HolmanGT]

Notice in my post I attributed it to coil mass, which does make a difference. Dual coil is more mass than single coil. No, the chip doesn't care, but the implication was that it's not putting out the wattage that it claims it is. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Furthermore, as TheBloke pointed out, Dual vs Single actually *does* make a difference on temp control chips, as it measure the increase in resistance across the entire coil (or both coils) to calculate the temperature. If the two coils are not exactly the same resistance while resting at room temperature, then one will be hotter than the other. This could feasibly cause one coil to just suck power from the other while not getting hot enough to actually vaporize liquid, which would result in very poor overall coil performance.

Aside from all of that, when the device is set to 40 Watts, and it never puts out more than 28 without getting anywhere near the set temperature, I don't think it's a "quantum leap" to think it has something to do with the chip.

Lenon,

By stating the total resistance you took the guess work out of the problem. That said all your reasoning why it is not working, or possible reasons, are not your problem. If they were so unbalanced as to cause the problem you are seeing it would have done the same thing on the "Shark".

I use dual coils on the real DNA40 all the time and I can assure you with my building skills they are never exactly a matching pair of coils.

So now we are back to the "Quantum Leap" conclusion that the chip set is not behaving as it should.

You have a couple of choices:
1. try a single coil @ 0.1 coil and see if you get the same result as you did with the dual coil.
2. try a dual coil @ 0.12 - 0.13 and she how the clone performs.
3. Contact the vendor and see what they have to say about the problem you are experiencing.

I am just saying that to take the easy way out and just live with it just because you got it for a low price may not be the best thing to do. Also there are several post on defective clones and the vendors have been very good about telling the person with the problem to just junk it and they send a new one. The worst case I have heard of is the vendor will ask you to take a video documenting the problem and sending it to them (IMHO that would be well worth while to get a properly working unit).

Regards,
George

PS - My comment while a little blunt was not meant to offend you but I hate to see people spend money and when the item doesn't perform as expected just write it off as "well I got such a good deal I can just live with it". Also at the risk of repeating myself most of the interactions with the vendors on the flask clones have been more than positive. It also is rather striking to see the lengths these Chinese Manufacturers are will to go to make good on defective units.

 

[dwcraig1]

help please
I have bought this Kangix flask
VF 40W Style Temperature Control Variable Wattage Mod - Silver, 1~40W, 2 x 18650, Micro USB Charger, Upgraded Version - 3FVape

And now I cannot find anywhere hex key which I need in order to open flask and replace 510 connector.
Does anyone know which hex key I need for it and where could I order it(preferably from Europe)

It is 1.3 mm

 

[lenon]

Lenon,

By stating the total resistance you took the guess work out of the problem. That said all your reasoning why it is not working, or possible reasons, are not your problem. If they were so unbalanced as to cause the problem you are seeing it would have done the same thing on the "Shark".

I use dual coils on the real DNA40 all the time and I can assure you with my building skills they are never exactly a matching pair of coils.

So now we are back to the "Quantum Leap" conclusion that the chip set is not behaving as it should.

You have a couple of choices:
1. try a single coil @ 0.1 coil and see if you get the same result as you did with the dual coil.
2. try a dual coil @ 0.12 - 0.13 and she how the clone performs.
3. Contact the vendor and see what they have to say about the problem you are experiencing.

I am just saying that to take the easy way out and just live with it just because you got it for a low price may not be the best thing to do. Also there are several post on defective clones and the vendors have been very good about telling the person with the problem to just junk it and they send a new one. The worst case I have heard of is the vendor will ask you to take a video documenting the problem and sending it to them (IMHO that would be well worth while to get a properly working unit).

Regards,
George

PS - My comment while a little blunt was not meant to offend you but I hate to see people spend money and when the item doesn't perform as expected just write it off as "well I got such a good deal I can just live with it". Also at the risk of repeating myself most of the interactions with the vendors on the flask clones have been more than positive. It also is rather striking to see the lengths these Chinese Manufacturers are will to go to make good on defective units.

Wow, you guys are reading WAY too much into what I said. And I wasn't offended, btw. I'm not saying the chip is in any way defective. All I'm pointing out is that it doesn't handle ohm loads near its lower limit very well. Regardless of the reason, this *does* have something to do with the chip when it works fine on an authentic DNA 40. It's not necessarily a defect, or even a problem. It is what it is. As Croak pointed out, you shouldn't really be running ohm loads at .1 anyway. If it shifts down a little bit, for whatever reason, you're screwed. Even on an authentic DNA40, if you get to .9, it doesn't perform very well, IMO.

Croak, in my experience, if you pop on a coil at .9 or below, the authentic does show you the decreased wattage when you fire it. I'll be happy to make a video of this if I need to. In this case, it shows that it's pumping out 40 watts right up until the point where it hits the temp limit. This leads me to believe that the clone may be slightly off in its calculations, and thinks it needs to step down the wattage. Other than that, I believe what you said in your reply was exactly what I was saying in the post you replied to.

The only reason I even made this build was to test out the clone at the absolute lower limit and see how it performed. The answer is, not well, and I think everyone should know that before buying. I'm just sharing information here. Isn't that what this forum is for?

Again, still not offended!

Peace and vape on!

Edit: In reality, we don't even know for sure what chip is in this device. The only thing we know is that it is not an authentic DNA40. Perhaps it doesn't have the same specs as the authentic. Maybe this particular chip does soft limiting below 1.2, or 1.1 instead of 1.0. Again, this doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the chip! The facts are, it doesn't fire a .1 ohm coil as expected. That's my only point. I don't even really care why, I was just trying to let people know that this *is* this case.

Edit2: Yes, I should have listed the resistance in the original post. But it was late, and I was tired, and I forgot.

 

[TheBloke]

And on a related note, I've had my best, most consistent results staying on the higher resistance side of things. 0.2 ohms and up. For one, it's more forgiving of resistance shifts that occur during the life of a coil, and after refills, etc. And since you need to be using thinner wire, it gets to temp a lot quicker.

But the "common wisdom" of using 28ga Ni200 will make this damn near impossible for most build decks (and uses too much coil even if you can get it to fit). That "sweet spot" of 0.15 ohms is just (IMHO) an artifact of what's best for 28 gauge, not what's best overall.

Give 30 or 32 gauge a try. Pre-wrap it spaced around your cotton/rayon like you would a silica wick if you find it's too fragile to wrap then wick. It won't be Instagram worthy, but you might not give a damn about how photogenic it is, if it works.

Great thoughts, thanks. I got 30 gauge for my first spool of Ni200 trying to balance between stupidly thin and stupidly low resistance, so will see how I get on once I have my device!

 

[Croak]

Wow, you guys are reading WAY too much into what I said. And I wasn't offended, btw. I'm not saying the chip is in any way defective. All I'm pointing out is that it doesn't handle ohm loads near its lower limit very well. Regardless of the reason, this *does* have something to do with the chip when it works fine on an authentic DNA 40. It's not necessarily a defect, or even a problem. It is what it is. As Croak pointed out, you shouldn't really be running ohm loads at .1 anyway. If it shifts down a little bit, for whatever reason, you're screwed. Even on an authentic DNA40, if you get to .9, it doesn't perform very well, IMO.

Croak, in my experience, if you pop on a coil at .9 or below, the authentic does show you the decreased wattage when you fire it. I'll be happy to make a video of this if I need to. In this case, it shows that it's pumping out 40 watts right up until the point where it hits the temp limit. This leads me to believe that the clone may be slightly off in its calculations, and thinks it needs to step down the wattage. Other than that, I believe what you said in your reply was exactly what I was saying in the post you replied to.

The only reason I even made this build was to test out the clone at the absolute lower limit and see how it performed. The answer is, not well, and I think everyone should know that before buying. I'm just sharing information here. Isn't that what this forum is for?

Again, still not offended!

Peace and vape on!

Edit: In reality, we don't even know for sure what chip is in this device. The only thing we know is that it is not an authentic DNA40. Perhaps it doesn't have the same specs as the authentic. Maybe this particular chip does soft limiting below 1.2, or 1.1 instead of 1.0. Again, this doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the chip! The facts are, it doesn't fire a .1 ohm coil as expected. That's my only point. I don't even really care why, I was just trying to let people know that this *is* this case.

Edit2: Yes, I should have listed the resistance in the original post. But it was late, and I was tired, and I forgot.

But amigo, it's not working fine below .01 ohms on a real DNA40. It's still being amp limited down to 16a after preheat, which puts it right at 28w, same as the ChiNA40. The difference is, it'll spike up to the full 40w (21a on that load) for less than a second while doing the preheat, whereas the ChiNA40 starts at the amp limit and never exceeds it.

Also keep in mind the granularity of the display, both boards will round a 0.096-0.099 up to 0.10, but that's a significant spread as far as nickel builds are concerned, and the connector variance between your VS and your VF clone could easily move it a few thousandth in either direction. And it's high enough not to trigger the ohms too low warning, but still low enough to run up against the hard amp limits of either board.

Then factor in the consequences of nickel coil resistance climbing as it heats..on the Evolv board, after it throws the max wattage at it during preheat, also spikes resistance higher, which then lets it put out more watts immediately after preheat while still staying below the 16 amp limit, and therefore, it'll put out a bit more vapor...but keep firing the two boards, and eventually they'll both settle in at the same wattage, if the firing cutoff didn't kick in first.

In a nutshell, the two boards handle things the same, it's just that the Chinese boards don't have appear to have a functional pre-heat at this point, and that skews a few things, especially with loads right at the lower limit.

 

[lenon]

But amigo, it's not working fine below .01 ohms on a real DNA40. It's still being amp limited down to 16a after preheat, which puts it right at 28w, same as the ChiNA40. The difference is, it'll spike up to the full 40w (21a on that load) for less than a second while doing the preheat, whereas the ChiNA40 starts at the amp limit and never exceeds it.

Also keep in mind the granularity of the display, both boards will round a 0.096-0.099 up to 0.10, but that's a significant spread as far as nickel builds are concerned, and the connector variance between your VS and your VF clone could easily move it a few thousandth in either direction. And it's high enough not to trigger the ohms too low warning, but still low enough to run up against the hard amp limits of either board.

Yeah man, I realize and understand all of that. I didn't claim that below .10 worked fine on the authentic. In fact, I claimed the opposite.

Even on an authentic DNA40, if you get to .9, it doesn't perform very well, IMO.

What I'm saying is, this *particular* coil, which reads .10 on both devices, fires fine on the authentic, and produces virtually no vapor on the clone. When firing this coil on the authentic, it fires 40 watts. Not just during preheat, but continuously for 5+ seconds. As it nears the temp limit (520 degrees as of right now) it starts backing off the wattage. If I intentionally build a coil, that is less than .10, it will never read 40 watts while firing. Additionally, it will say "ohms too low", which does not happen on this coil.

The clone on the other hand, sticks at right about 28 watts with this SAME coil. It never gets over about 280 degrees, and I get no vapor out of it.

Maybe the clone is the one exhibiting the correct behavior, and the authentic is the one messing it up. What you guys don't seem to be getting out of my comments is, I don't *care*.

I couldn't care less which one is right, and which one is wrong. What I'm pointing out is, there is a difference in behavior when the ohm load is that low, and people should know. That's all.

Still not offended!

EDIT: Of course, in my post above, and the quote above, I meant .09, as opposed to .9.

 

[HolmanGT]

Yeah man, I realize and understand all of that. I didn't claim that below .10 worked fine on the authentic. In fact, I claimed the opposite.



What I'm saying is, this *particular* coil, which reads .10 on both devices, fires fine on the authentic, and produces virtually no vapor on the clone. When firing this coil on the authentic, it fires 40 watts. Not just during preheat, but continuously for 5+ seconds. As it nears the temp limit (520 degrees as of right now) it starts backing off the wattage. If I intentionally build a coil, that is less than .10, it will never read 40 watts while firing. Additionally, it will say "ohms too low", which does not happen on this coil.

The clone on the other hand, sticks at right about 28 watts with this SAME coil. It never gets over about 280 degrees, and I get no vapor out of it.

Maybe the clone is the one exhibiting the correct behavior, and the authentic is the one messing it up. What you guys don't seem to be getting out of my comments is, I don't *care*.

I couldn't care less which one is right, and which one is wrong. What I'm pointing out is, there is a difference in behavior when the ohm load is that low, and people should know. That's all.

Still not offended!

EDIT: Of course, in my post above, and the quote above, I meant .09, as opposed to .9.

lenon,

OK I get that you don't care and you just wanted others to know about this situation you have experienced BUT you are the first one to post this problem that I have seen. I think that was the only reason I approached it as a problem to be solved.

I have a gazillion other questions about your experience but I truly do understand that you meant your post as a caveat for others. I am more than willing to let it go at that.

 

[lenon]

lenon,

OK I get that you don't care and you just wanted others to know about this situation you have experienced BUT you are the first one to post this problem that I have seen. I think that was the only reason I approached it as a problem to be solved.

I have a gazillion other questions about your experience but I truly do understand that you meant your post as a caveat for others. I am more than willing to let it go at that.

Hey man, if you have questions and want to experiment, fire away. I'm willing to try anything for ya. I don't have anything to do for the rest of the day.

Where we differ is, I don't think this is a problem to be solved. I don't think there's anything wrong in any way, with the coil, or the chip, or the mod. I think it's just different behavior than expected.

But yeah, if you want me to build a .10 ohm single coil, or try something different, just let me know. I'll report the results as accurately as I know how.

 

[ThunderDan]

Oh ofc, now FC has the waidea on sale shipping from US.


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[lenon]

Then factor in the consequences of nickel coil resistance climbing as it heats..on the Evolv board, after it throws the max wattage at it during preheat, also spikes resistance higher, which then lets it put out more watts immediately after preheat while still staying below the 16 amp limit, and therefore, it'll put out a bit more vapor...but keep firing the two boards, and eventually they'll both settle in at the same wattage, if the firing cutoff didn't kick in first.

In a nutshell, the two boards handle things the same, it's just that the Chinese boards don't have appear to have a functional pre-heat at this point, and that skews a few things, especially with loads right at the lower limit.

You're not wrong, Croak. That's exactly what would happen in the circumstances that you describe, but that's not what's happening here. The authentic DNA40 hits temp protection, while the ChiNA40 never does. The authentic also takes 5+ seconds to hit the temp limit. I don't think this is a preheat thing.

Edit: Even after hitting temp protection, the authentic doesn't back off to 28 watts, which is where the clone settles in.

 

[HolmanGT]

Oh ofc, now FC has the waidea on sale shipping from US.


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Dan,

The way China is jumping on these DNA40 clones, I have seen a couple of places in the USA selling the clones also, they must be getting orders in GAZILLIONS. I don't think I have ever seen anything take off like these Mods in the two years that I have been vaping and certainly not at the price they are selling them for.

Afterthought; I believe I see this DNA40 clone item driving down the prices of almost all the Mods on the market even ProVape and I have never seen ProVape drop their prices like they have in the last week or so. I find the whole thing very interesting and financially beneficial to Vaper.