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Jock
Yes, I meant another version of the full size Subtank. They held up our group-buy delivery because there was some kind of change, not necessarily a new version, but there was something different.
In regards to versions of insulators, I know of four versions and probably many versions of the versions = real mess. The clear ones and the brown ones are both (supposedly) made of some kind of PEEK. I've not seen any degradation whatsoever on the brown ones.
The clear ones are apparently just more brittle and more prone to cracking if tightened down too hard on the deck.
The brown ones are really soft and flexible.
DrunkenBatman gave lots of detail on PEEK above; he seems to be very knowledgeable about it.
I was just thinking about the folks who can't get melted plastic residue off of their decks.
At this point, I'm not recommending it if it's the only tank you have but I tried it on an old deck and it worked great. So this might be an option If you feel your deck is unusable anyway. So, here goes:
The melting temperature of stainless steel is a minimum of 1400 degrees F. The self-cleaning cycle of your oven is typically around 900 degrees F. That's 500 degrees below the melting point of your stainless steel deck. Bottom line is there's plenty of room for error in the estimations.
My test deck was quite large, about the same as the full size Subtank. The Subtank Mini is much smaller but you wouldn't be doing this to anything but the deck portion, which is thicker, so I would think it would be quite stable . Any metallurgists out there??
I melted a little piece of clear insulator onto the the test deck with a mini torch to simulate the problem. The steps I followed were:
1) I removed everything including the hollow center (air-hole) post. JC was asking about how to do this in his Post #124 in this Thread, so below is a picture on how to do it.
2) I hung the bare deck (screws out too) using a piece of coil-making wire, we know that will take the 900 degree heat.
3) I simply bent a hook at the top of the wire and hung it from the light fixture, there was a gap there, but anyplace near the center of the oven is fine.
4) I ran the complete cleaning cycle of the oven and let everything cool down gradually.
5) the plastic that I melted on it turned to dust and I simply brushed it off.
I cleaned the threads with a small stainless steel brush that came with my dremel. All of the parts screwed back on just fine.
I'm not recommending that anyone try this on their good deck until we hear back from some knowledgeable folks; with some metallurgical background. I never claim to be an expert, but I do know where to find them: on this forum!!
((((((((( DrunkenBatman: this doesn't really jive with the melting temperature specs you provided for PEEK does it? Perhaps we have a sub-standard material here? Wouldn't suprise me in the least. )))))))))
Please pipe in to critique this if you have experience with metals or ask someone you know to chime in. My main concern is that the mini is much thinner in places than the test deck I used here and I'm wondering if it might warp. This is why I suspended it with a wire, there were no pressure points as there would be if it was setting on something.
I just want to reiterate that I'm suggesting this as a solution for folks out who think their deck is trash anyway.
At this point, I'm not recommending it if it's the only tank you have but I tried it on an old deck and it worked great. So this might be an option If you feel your deck is unusable anyway. So, here goes:
The melting temperature of stainless steel is a minimum of 1400 degrees F. The self-cleaning cycle of your oven is typically around 900 degrees F. That's 500 degrees below the melting point of your stainless steel deck. Bottom line is there's plenty of room for error in the estimations.
My test deck was quite large, about the same as the full size Subtank. The Subtank Mini is much smaller but you wouldn't be doing this to anything but the deck portion, which is thicker, so I would think it would be quite stable . Any metallurgists out there??
I melted a little piece of clear insulator onto the the test deck with a mini torch to simulate the problem. The steps I followed were:
1) I removed everything including the hollow center (air-hole) post. JC was asking about how to do this in his Post #124 in this Thread, so below is a picture on how to do it.
2) I hung the bare deck (screws out too) using a piece of coil-making wire, we know that will take the 900 degree heat.
3) I simply bent a hook at the top of the wire and hung it from the light fixture, there was a gap there, but anyplace near the center of the oven is fine.
4) I ran the complete cleaning cycle of the oven and let everything cool down gradually.
5) the plastic that I melted on it turned to dust and I simply brushed it off.
I cleaned the threads with a small stainless steel brush that came with my dremel. All of the parts screwed back on just fine.
I'm not recommending that anyone try this on their good deck until we hear back from some knowledgeable folks; with some metallurgical background. I never claim to be an expert, but I do know where to find them: on this forum!!
((((((((( DrunkenBatman: this doesn't really jive with the melting temperature specs you provided for PEEK does it? Perhaps we have a sub-standard material here? Wouldn't suprise me in the least. )))))))))
Please pipe in to critique this if you have experience with metals or ask someone you know to chime in. My main concern is that the mini is much thinner in places than the test deck I used here and I'm wondering if it might warp. This is why I suspended it with a wire, there were no pressure points as there would be if it was setting on something.
I just want to reiterate that I'm suggesting this as a solution for folks out who think their deck is trash anyway.
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Hey mate, I'm not an expert: I'm a superhero. The difference is primarily later working hours, positively-reinforced grandiose delusions, and an inferior dental plan.
To note from above, I am thinking/referring to insulator versions based on materials, not variations of channel size or tabs. I'm not saying that's not a valid way to approach things, but when the issues we've been talking about have to do with materials used, lumping in form variations can imply the materials have changed. Since there's no evidence that's the case... we're muddying things. Probably should have some compromise of denoting it, e.g., "3 material variations."
I never, ever want to discourage someone from shoving random non-living objects into an oven to see what happens, but I'm confused about why you're confused and talking about substandard materials here.
I said:Glass-transition: ~143C (289F)
Melting Temp: ~340C (644F)
I also said there are variations that are fine running at 250C (482F), and again these are base numbers that change with additives used. For reference, when a big wad of polymers hits its glass-transition phase, the polymers are a able to start sliding against each other and the object can can be deformed (amongst other things). In use you might not notice the difference until you started getting to the high-end of the range.
There's two types of self-cleaning ovens, pyrolitic & continuous. Yours is almost certainly pyrolitic, and will hit 482-537C (900-1,000F) for *hours and hours* -- there's a reason why the whole inside of the oven is coated with enamel. People melt PEEK insulators in 3D printers and such... it has a high-heat resistance for a polymer, but it's still chains of petrol with various bindants and you're 40%+ over the melting temp. I have a feeling if you took a chunk of the clear insulator and a chunk of the tan insulator, and ran them through the oven you'd go "Oh."
My notes have stainless steels melting at around 1500F, but it goes soft and loses integrity much earlier... but atomizers aren't exactly load-bearing.
If you're asking if this could warp/misshape it, the answer is yes. If you're asking if it *will* warp, the answer is that there's a decent chance but you could make it much less likely. There are two issues involved: heat-treating (tempering) and thermal expansion/cooling. You can temper SS (stainless steel) low and slow at 290C (550F). It's been too long since I stuffed my head full of the details of the stages (recovery, recrystalization & growth), but this shouldn't be a huge deal. You're basically making the metal softer... but it should be hard enough. As a quick primer, you harden metals by taking them above their glass point but below the melting point, and quenching in liquid quickly. Hard is brittle, so you then temper it to make to get the right ratio of elasticity and hardness.
Thermal expansion/cooling is trickier, and you were right to let it cool down on its own. The issue is different parts with different surface area will heat up faster, and expand at a different rate... and hence warp. The slower and more uniformly you heat it, and the slower and uniformly it's cooled, the less likely to get warpage... but you could still get it.
However, if I was doing this, I'd just use a butane torch in a targeted and stepped way to avoid heat buildup in the steel.
Where are they????
It's now 5:45am, so I allow that I'm spacing out, but the only thing I can find is one case of someone saying their clear insulator showed possible cracking, probably related to mechanical pressure. We'll see this happen eventually when someone inevitably shorts their 0.15 build or has buildup, but I legit can't find any other cases of the insulator fusing to the deck or such. Anywhere.
I care about these sorts of things, and try to look out for people I'm not sleeping with, so I did what he asked and methodically went through every post made by J_C_87 and others about this *everywhere*.
Every linked thread on reddit, ECF, VOLDEMORTs site and elsewhere, and every google variation I could think of which all went back to those threads. I've seen the tactics and phrasing mentioned earlier used repeatedly, e.g., "Lots of people are having problems with the insulators... ...here's pics of how mine melted" and then you realize "lots of others" is someone who tried to stick a 25mm subtank insulator into a mini being conflated with his issue. You can do the same searches, but because we probably aren't sleeping together, I'm going to recommend you spend your time in less-maddening pursuits. I allow that I could have missed one, but if there's only one to miss it sorta proves the point.
This was stupid of me in terms of time management, but here we are, and I am telling you with every ounce of credibility someone on the internet named drunkenbatman has that there's no evidence this is an issue. If there are any real functional differences between the clear and tan insulator for our usage, they appear to be minor and aren't showing up.
I don't think this is going to stop, and I think I know what's going on here, and if you read between the lines you will too. As a brain rinse, vintage german hip-hop.
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DrunkenBatman,
I think I understand the video analogy; You, (as a superhero) run to the aid of Beautiful Women with broken-down Vaping equipment, is that it?
In regards to the actual post, I agree with your points totally.
Kim
I think I understand the video analogy; You, (as a superhero) run to the aid of Beautiful Women with broken-down Vaping equipment, is that it?
In regards to the actual post, I agree with your points totally.
Kim
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I had the company I purchased my Subtank Mini from, Sweet-Vapes, contact Kanger about the insulators. They sent me a copy of the reply they got back from Kangertech, and it states that both the clear, and the light brown insulators are OK. Sweet-Vapes even offered to purchase insulators if needed, but Kanger said that wouldn't be necessary.
So, I'm using mine, and I really love it! I'm glad I bought it.
I'm sorry a couple of fellow vapers had problems, but am hoping that these are isolated cases.
So, I'm using mine, and I really love it! I'm glad I bought it.
I'm sorry a couple of fellow vapers had problems, but am hoping that these are isolated cases.
Kanger had reportedly admitted that the first insulators were bad. Pbusardo contacted them, and they said they changed to peek insulators in the second run and that those that got the old insulators should contact the Kanger U.S. division and they'd replace them
On this thread, we've only heard from one person that had a problem with a clear insulator. That was JC87 and he said that it melted to his deck. That's what his pictures looked like as well.
His pictures did not show swelling of the material, bubbling or disintegration as can be seen on the pictures of my insulator. It looks like his just flat out melted. His appears to be a different than the chemical melting that most folks have had.
So I was just trying to help him out with a possible easy way to remove the melted plastic as it was on the inside where he couldn't scrape it off.
There are some discrepancies about the material that the clear ones are made of. Kanger emailed me stating that the clear ones are not PEEK. Kanger did not say that they were bad, just that they're not PEEK. I copied the text from our emails below.
So it seems that the best thing to do would be to keep an eye on them when you re-wick; can't hurt right?
((((((((((Here is Text copied from my email to Kanger, )))))))))
Thanks for all your help, you folks have been great!!
I have a question for you. I got the replacement insulators for my Subtank. They are brown in color.
A YouTube video (Busardo) said the replacement insulators were clear (no color). Can you explain?
What are my brown ones made out of? Are they PEEK?
Thanks so much, again, you've been very helpful and responsive.
(((((((((( Below is text from the email response that I got from Kanger; )))))))))))
The brown are the PEEK. His are older and not PEEK.
Best regards,
KangerTech US Sales & Service Center
His pictures did not show swelling of the material, bubbling or disintegration as can be seen on the pictures of my insulator. It looks like his just flat out melted. His appears to be a different than the chemical melting that most folks have had.
So I was just trying to help him out with a possible easy way to remove the melted plastic as it was on the inside where he couldn't scrape it off.
There are some discrepancies about the material that the clear ones are made of. Kanger emailed me stating that the clear ones are not PEEK. Kanger did not say that they were bad, just that they're not PEEK. I copied the text from our emails below.
So it seems that the best thing to do would be to keep an eye on them when you re-wick; can't hurt right?
((((((((((Here is Text copied from my email to Kanger, )))))))))
Thanks for all your help, you folks have been great!!
I have a question for you. I got the replacement insulators for my Subtank. They are brown in color.
A YouTube video (Busardo) said the replacement insulators were clear (no color). Can you explain?
What are my brown ones made out of? Are they PEEK?
Thanks so much, again, you've been very helpful and responsive.
(((((((((( Below is text from the email response that I got from Kanger; )))))))))))
The brown are the PEEK. His are older and not PEEK.
Best regards,
KangerTech US Sales & Service Center
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I'd be really leery of this mate, as it goes against everything Kanger has told everyone else from day one, so why would one support person now change the story up to a random customer? I entirely allow for the possibility of it not being PEEK, but I also know what happens when you're conversing with someone who isn't a native english speaker try to resolve/answer issues as quickly as possible. e.g.:
1. The support guy answering emails could be mistaken.
2. If you look at his wording, he may simply not be answering what you think he is. "His are older and not PEEK" He doesn't actually say the transparent isn't PEEK, so he may not be answering what you asked but what he thinks you asked.
Anyways mate, if I were in your shoes I'd do my best to do a bunch of confirming before running with this as you ae.
I'd be really leery of this mate, as it goes against everything Kanger has told everyone else from day one, so why would one support person now change the story up to a random customer? I entirely allow for the possibility of it not being PEEK, but I also know what happens when you're conversing with someone who isn't a native english speaker try to resolve/answer issues as quickly as possible. e.g.:
1. The support guy answering emails could be mistaken.
2. If you look at his wording, he may simply not be answering what you think he is. "His are older and not PEEK" He doesn't actually say the transparent isn't PEEK, so he may not be answering what you asked but what he thinks you asked.
Anyways mate, if I were in your shoes I'd do my best to do a bunch of confirming before running with this as you ae.
Hmmm....., perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough, it wouldn't be the first time
I'm not saying the clear insulator is bad or good so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "running with". This is simply a piece of info for folks to consider. It demonstrates that bad information abounds on this topic; from many sources. As such, it's probably a good idea to simply "keep an eye on" the insulator.
The email was with Kanger USA so it's likely not a language problem but could be a "mistake". Again, My point here is that if there is this much confusion, it would be practically impossible to confirm it one way or the other. so the logical thing to do is simply monitor the condition.
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Starr,
It's a shame that the insulator issue happened in the first place as it overshadowed all the good things about the Tank. I'm fairly conservative and tend to look everything over everytime I take the tank apart. That's why I found the insulator problem on my tank so quickly.
The lesson-learned here for me is that in the future I'm going to be even more careful to inspect the parts.
I agree with you that it may just be a few random bad clear insulators. The other consideration is that people use them so differently; they build them differently, vape them differently, attach them to different batteries, etc., etc. They can be fine for one person's style/combination but not anothers.
Perhaps this is the last of the problems and we're home free. You never know though and I'm going to keep checking mine (the brown ones) at this point. Sure, there's those that will again call me paranoid for posting observations and concerns but we're all adults here and can come to our own conclusions. This is the place to share findings; like you and I did; it's all useful information.
P.S., Thanks for your support earlier.
ErnieKim
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Grandma's Cinnamon Danish by Nicoticket is awesome! I saw Dragon's Breath by the Mad Alchemist on sale for $2.99 a bottle at Skyline Vapor; all Mad Alchemist ejuice is being discontinued on that site. They offer Free Shipping, too. I bought an Aspire CF SubOhm battery for $19.99 there, too!
The entire point of vaping with glass tanks is so we can vape Cinnamon ejuice, and Cinnamon is not bad for health, it's good for us.
Nobody should have to stop vaping Cinnamon eliquid; that's one of the most enjoyable flavors around. The entire 'tank cracker' issue is solved by all the glass tanks.
The Mini Protank 2 was one of the most popular tanks in the world, and many people still use them. Why? Because they do not Crack Tanks, and are pretty decent little tanks. I used to love mine.
Now I AM loving my Kanger Subtank Mini!!! I've had it a few days, and it's the best tank I have EVER owned. The taste of eliquid is greatly enhanced, I've got my loaded with Nicoticket Wakonda, and I get so much vapor that I literally can't see my PC screen for a few seconds after the exhale. I think Kanger fixed the problem, and I'd be remiss not to say so after posting about my concerns.
The Mini Protank 2 was one of the most popular tanks in the world, and many people still use them. Why? Because they do not Crack Tanks, and are pretty decent little tanks. I used to love mine.
Now I AM loving my Kanger Subtank Mini!!! I've had it a few days, and it's the best tank I have EVER owned. The taste of eliquid is greatly enhanced, I've got my loaded with Nicoticket Wakonda, and I get so much vapor that I literally can't see my PC screen for a few seconds after the exhale. I think Kanger fixed the problem, and I'd be remiss not to say so after posting about my concerns.
I want to add one last thing to this thread. It's a shame that a couple of people are dissatisfied with their Kanger Subtank Mini, Full Size, etc., but after 200 posts on this thread alone I haven't heard of anyone else having problems with the Kanger Subtank.
Yes, I was concerned when I first came across this issue. I saw the Jbsuardo review of the white insulator trouble, but he said the clear insulators work fine.
I have to go by own experience with my Subtank Mini now, and mine has the clear insulator that's working just fine. Well, better than fine, it's great!
I have to be honest; that's what this community is for, to help fellow vapers. I appreciate the two people that had trouble reporting it, but I do now think these are isolated cases.
How many tanks has Kangertech sold now? Many, many thousands would be my guess, and I truly think all problems are solved. Nobody should be afraid to buy a Kanger Subtank. You won't find a better tank around, especially at this price point!
Yes, I was concerned when I first came across this issue. I saw the Jbsuardo review of the white insulator trouble, but he said the clear insulators work fine.
I have to go by own experience with my Subtank Mini now, and mine has the clear insulator that's working just fine. Well, better than fine, it's great!
I have to be honest; that's what this community is for, to help fellow vapers. I appreciate the two people that had trouble reporting it, but I do now think these are isolated cases.
How many tanks has Kangertech sold now? Many, many thousands would be my guess, and I truly think all problems are solved. Nobody should be afraid to buy a Kanger Subtank. You won't find a better tank around, especially at this price point!
To be fair Starre, PBusardo did a followup on his website after his review and received clarification from Kanger that the clear insulators have been replaced by a new blended PEEK insulator that is tan colored. So Busardo did not test the final insulator but tested the clear insulator which has since been replaced. Here's the link:
Taste Your Juice | KANGER SUBTANK INSULATOR CLARIFICATION
I did have problems with the clear and some cracking and discoloration. To the point that I can't use the RTA section at this time until I get a replacement. Of course there are no replacements available to purchase through Kanger (this is direct from KangerUS), but they will get them sometime in the future. I would imagine that will happen sometime in March after the Chinese holiday period. I will get a couple as soon as they are available.
The other thing to keep in mind is that while some of us have had some issues with the tank, that doesn't mean we are dissatisfied. I love the Subtank mini and think it's a great tank and use it now with the pre-built coils and recoil with my old, used coils. I understand that there might be some issues with a new product, and while I'm anxious to get a replacement insulator so I can use the RTA section, I'll wait patiently until they arrive on the slow boat from China. While it's mildly frustrating to not be able to enjoy the RTA section it certainly doesn't detract from a great tank otherwise that I use on a daily basis. I think some folks just tend to blow a minor problem all out of proportion, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a small problem that exists.
I just read PBusardo's review again, and he said clear, "good." I'm not going to worry about it...mine is fine and I've been chain vaping for days.
Jazz & Starr
Here comes my inquisitiveness again, would each of you please answer two questions:
1) what wattage/voltage do you run it at?
2) what juice(s) have y'all been using?
I agree with Starr that there could very well be a difference between the materials even though they're both clear. But we may also identify what is damaging them (thermal or chemical) so that some folks could continue to use them with greater peace of mind, until they get the brown insulators.
Granted, this is hardly a definitive experiment but it might reveal something interesting. One data point is better than none
ErnieKim
Starre,
Thanks so much for the tips, I'm grabbing my credit card go shopping right now.
ErnieKim
I think just the higher nicotine levels are left, but I don't care. Skyline Vapor sends out a free 15ml with their orders, too. I was impressed.
Jazz & Starr
Here comes my inquisitiveness again, would each of you please answer two questions:
1) what wattage/voltage do you run it at?
2) what juice(s) have y'all been using?
I agree with Starr that there could very well be a difference between the materials even though they're both clear. But we may also identify what is damaging them (thermal or chemical) so that some folks could continue to use them with greater peace of mind, until they get the brown insulators.
Granted, this is hardly a definitive experiment but it might reveal something interesting. One data point is better than none
ErnieKim
I was running a Strawberry & Caramel. A 70/30 VG/PG at 15watts on the .5ohm coil that came with the deck. Never had a bad flavor and I wouldn't have know if I hadn't inspected the insulator. Maybe ignorance is bliss and I shouldn't have checked at all...lol.
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