!! WARNING !! Kanger Subtank RBA Insulator Dissolving Into my Juice !!! What should I use to make one?

[ErnieKim]

While we know pans can get hot enough (even with food in them) for them be generated at high amounts, you don't have the pan hooked up with a direct pathway right into your lungs while vaping. So, with your insulator, there's always a minute amount, but how hot will the teflon get while you're vaping? I don't really know.

Drunk,

To be honest, I only took a couple of puffs and set it aside. I didn't even inhale (hmm. I seem to recall someone else saying that). This morning I went to Lowes, couldn't find anything appropriate so I came home and pillaged an old dripper that I bought and never used.
I am, like you, am pretty conservative and I really appreciate your advice.
Take Care.
ErnieKim

 

[ErnieKim]

Heh it doesn't eat glass, but it'll eat a plastic insulator. And yeah, just send them an email.

Yes, as DrunkenBatman said, I contacted them through the main (China) website and they got back to me immediately. Next week they will be sending a batch of the new PEEK insulators to Kanger USA for distribution to people that inquire about them. Next week will probably be next month so you may want to go ahead and find an alternative replacement for the short term, especially if you are using an aggressive juice like I was.

You might want to save face and stay away from my Teflon pan idea though. I guess I'm no MacGyver.
ErnieKim

 

[Rizzyking]

Given the number of subtanks sold and this not being a widespread issue I'm leaning more to the liquid people are using more then there being a problem with the tank. There are also some shenanigans going on between some company's and people linked to them at the minute not saying that's the case here but its happening and a few scare stories are being floated about a few products

 

[drunkenbatman]

Given the number of subtanks sold and this not being a widespread issue I'm leaning more to the liquid people are using more then there being a problem with the tank.

In the case of pluid, I 100% degree -- you can't vape battery acid then be surprised when stuff melts, including your tooth enamel. But I've seen lots of cheaper atty's with an insulator that looked like theirs, so I'm just inclined to think they went the cheap route then were proactive when it started causing issues. A $50 glass tank really shouldn't be melting from a red hots flavor.

There are also some shenanigans going on between some company's and people linked to them at the minute not saying that's the case here but its happening and a few scare stories are being floated about a few products

I've noticed some of that too, and it's very suspicious and very disappointing as it muddies the waters and encourages people to get tribalistic. These are companies, and companies are made of people, and if everyone selling vape gear had their customers best interests at heart we'd not roll our eyes at what we see many B&Ms doing.

I'd hope we could agree that there are real and legitimate concerns that are going to arise that people should be made aware of, like if a company was using a Teflon insulator.

 

[drunkenbatman]

You might want to save face and stay away from my Teflon pan idea though. I guess I'm no MacGyver.

For the record, you MacGuyver'd the hell out of that situation and it's a story I'll be repeatedly embellishing as I tell it. You wouldn't have died, it just wouldn't have been good for you, and as I recall someone else put the idea in your head.

...so I came home and pillaged an old dripper that I bought and never used.
I am, like you, am pretty conservative and I really appreciate your advice.

Anytime mate!

*gives the horns*

 

[Jazzman]

I think it's obvious Kanger picked a bad material to be making insulators out of. It's not just Pluid, it's every juice you put into the tank according to PBusardo and other reviewers and personal experience. According to Busardo, the same tanks, with the same juice, but with the old and new insulators taste different. He said the old insulator tastes like "monkey azz" and the new insulator in the same tank tasted wonderful. Maybe some won't believe his reviews, but I tend to think this kind of A-B testing has some merit.

So this is not just some juice that some think is equivalent to "battery acid". This is every juice. Some juices may show more obvious signs of this poor material choice, but I think all juices and vapers will benefit from the rev b material. I think Kanger has been quick to acknowledge this material is not an ideal insulator material and I commend them for stepping up and offering any current Subtank owner a free replacement to a better insulator. Good for them. And if they have admitted that the material needs to be changed and are offering free replacements, I think that should end the argument here of whether this is just a battery acid juice causing the problem since that is clearly not the case.

The good news is the new Subtank mini I got yesterday already has the clear peek insulator in it. So this is not just lip service by Kanger, the new material has already been incorporated into their Subtank product line.

BTW, the Subtank mini is by far the best tank Kanger has ever made. They fixed some niggling issues I did not care for in the bigger Subtank and I think this is now the best clearo on the market. And coming from and Atlantis fan, that's saying a lot.

 

[invisiblehand13]

I think it's obvious Kanger picked a bad material to be making insulators out of. It's not just Pluid, it's every juice you put into the tank according to PBusardo and other reviewers and personal experience. According to Busardo, the same tanks, with the same juice, but with the old and new insulators taste different. He said the old insulator tastes like "monkey azz" and the new insulator in the same tank tasted wonderful. Maybe some won't believe his reviews, but I tend to think this kind of A-B testing has some merit.

So this is not just some juice that some think is equivalent to "battery acid". This is every juice. Some juices may show more obvious signs of this poor material choice, but I think all juices and vapers will benefit from the rev b material. I think Kanger has been quick to acknowledge this material is not an ideal insulator material and I commend them for stepping up and offering any current Subtank owner a free replacement to a better insulator. Good for them. And if they have admitted that the material needs to be changed and are offering free replacements, I think that should end the argument here of whether this is just a battery acid juice causing the problem since that is clearly not the case.

The good news is the new Subtank mini I got yesterday already has the clear peek insulator in it. So this is not just lip service by Kanger, the new material has already been incorporated into their Subtank product line.

BTW, the Subtank mini is by far the best tank Kanger has ever made. They fixed some niggling issues I did not care for in the bigger Subtank and I think this is now the best clearo on the market. And coming from and Atlantis fan, that's saying a lot.

I do think that the point here though is that it is only on SOME of the tanks that they released and NOT in all of them, every company is guilty of trying to cut corners from time to time and it's not that they don't have out best interests in mind (that would LOSE them money lol) they just wanted to save a buck or possibly one guy higher up just made a bad call...I know I personally agree that too much bad mouthing is going around when the point is that kanger HAS been a decent company and so have many of the other big companies...but...Aspire is guilty of using ceramic wicking material, Kanger is guilty of using cheaper insulators, Pioneer4you is guilty of using cheap glue in the ipv3 and every company in China is guilty of using brass and copper that has LEAD in it...think about that one for a sec...lol

 

[ErnieKim]

Yes, If we condemned automobile companies for having one or two recalls, there wouldn't be any cars on the road. Granted things "hit the market" a wee bit early sometimes but "the market" (us) drives this. Kanger has been very quick to acknowledge this and provide a fix, I think they should be applauded.
ErnieKim

 

[ErnieKim]

Hats off to Kanger! I got my new insulators today. They even sent me two of them!
Kim

 

[ErnieKim]

According to Busardo, the same tanks, with the same juice, but with the old and new insulators taste different. He said the old insulator tastes like "monkey azz" and the new insulator in the same tank tasted wonderful. Maybe some won't believe his reviews, but I tend to think this kind of A-B testing has some meritI think Kanger has been quick to acknowledge this material is not an ideal insulator material and I commend them for stepping up and offering any current Subtank owner a free replacement to a better insulator. Good for them.

BTW, the Subtank mini is by far the best tank Kanger has ever made. They fixed some niggling issues I did not care for in the bigger Subtank and I think this is now the best clearo on the market. And coming from and Atlantis fan, that's saying a lot.

Jazzman,

I have a hard time believing that Busardo could actually "taste" the difference. What do you think? The exposed surface area of that insulator is really small.
Kim

 

[ErnieKim]

Jazzman,

I have a hard time believing that Busardo could actually "taste" the difference. What do you think? The exposed surface area of that insulator is really small.
Kim

I wasn't thinking, my new "mini" is supposed to arrive tomorrow. Maybe I should put the old insulator back in the Subtank and repeat what he did with straight PG in the tanks to see if I can "taste" the insulator. Maybe you could try it too and we'll compare notes.
Kim

 

[drunkenbatman]

I think it's obvious Kanger picked a bad material to be making insulators out of.

I can't say, in the one I saw it looked more like the insulators I've seen on cheaper RDAs. Which I consider to be a cheap material and as I've said several times at it's price point I'd have expected delrin and it's something to watch for with kanger in the future. Obviously if it wasn't the standard plastic/rubber/silicone stuff I'd like to know.

It's not just Pluid, it's every juice you put into the tank according to PBusardo and other reviewers and personal experience. According to Busardo, the same tanks, with the same juice, but with the old and new insulators taste different. He said the old insulator tastes like "monkey azz" and the new insulator in the same tank tasted wonderful. Maybe some won't believe his reviews, but I tend to think this kind of A-B testing has some merit. So this is not just some juice that some think is equivalent to "battery acid". This is every juice.

I haven't kept up on pbusardos videos which is zero reflection on the guy, but:

1. I did see his original subtank video where he was directly comparing it to the atlantis. Literally tug on one, tug on the other, and was giving the nod to the subtank for flavor. It wasn't like he only did it that one time.

2. I've used a subtank for a few hours using an eliquid I know well (homebrewed ry4 variant with a hint of cinnamon) and I definitely couldn't tell any difference. That was only a few hours, but hey.

If he's now saying something different I'll check it out, thanks. However, and I try to pay attention to these things, he's the only one I've heard say that and only because you told me. Obviously you have to allow for what happens after someone "notable" says something and placebo sets in, but like I said I'll check it out as maybe there's a month-long process till it kicks in.

BTW, the Subtank mini is by far the best tank Kanger has ever made. They fixed some niggling issues I did not care for in the bigger Subtank and I think this is now the best clearo on the market. And coming from and Atlantis fan, that's saying a lot.

I'm glad, while I liked the original large size in a lot of ways, the design feels in need of a refinement as the design just doesn't seem tolerant enough of manufacturing differences or user error for something intending to be mass-mark. I've lost count of the people dealing with leaking due to the bottom o-ring not being oriented right or not seated properly and issues with the floating pin that a normal user wouldn't be able to figure out.

 

[Jazzman]

I wasn't thinking, my new "mini" is supposed to arrive tomorrow. Maybe I should put the old insulator back in the Subtank and repeat what he did with straight PG in the tanks to see if I can "taste" the insulator. Maybe you could try it too and we'll compare notes.
Kim

Have at it. I don't think I'll take the time since Kanger has already stated that the material is not appropriate for the intended use and has issued free replacements to any who have what they consider substandard material. Why not just used the replacement insulators and be happy? Just seems the best course of action. But knock yourself out if it pleases you, I certainly don't have a problem with it.

Unlike you, I think Busardo does have enough experience with juice testing to do an A-B comparison for juice flavor. He has been testing juice for quite a while and does have quite a bit of experience with it and has generally been considered as fair with his assessments. But if you doubt his results, no problem.

Also, from your earlier posts somehow you are comparing Kanger's issues to completely unrelated issues about Aspire, P4U, and Chinese manufcurers use of leaded brass. These have no bearing in this discussion and just muddy the issue to the point of uselessness. Please try to stay on topic and not obfuscate the issue about Kanger's choice of insulator material. It really has no bearing and takes the topic far afield.

All this being said, I look forward to your review and the obvious conclusion that you discern no difference in juice flavor with different insulator materials.

 

[T4T3Z0R]

edit: didnt read rest of thread

 

[Jazzman]

I can't say, in the one I saw it looked more like the insulators I've seen on cheaper RDAs. Which I consider to be a cheap material and as I've said several times at it's price point I'd have expected delrin and it's something to watch for with kanger in the future. Obviously if it wasn't the standard plastic/rubber/silicone stuff I'd like to know.



I haven't kept up on pbusardos videos which is zero reflection on the guy, but:

1. I did see his original subtank video where he was directly comparing it to the atlantis. Literally tug on one, tug on the other, and was giving the nod to the subtank for flavor. It wasn't like he only did it that one time.

2. I've used a subtank for a few hours using an eliquid I know well (homebrewed ry4 variant with a hint of cinnamon) and I definitely couldn't tell any difference. That was only a few hours, but hey.

If he's now saying something different I'll check it out, thanks. However, and I try to pay attention to these things, he's the only one I've heard say that and only because you told me. Obviously you have to allow for what happens after someone "notable" says something and placebo sets in, but like I said I'll check it out as maybe there's a month-long process till it kicks in.



I'm glad, while I liked the original large size in a lot of ways, the design feels in need of a refinement as the design just doesn't seem tolerant enough of manufacturing differences or user error for something intending to be mass-mark. I've lost count of the people dealing with leaking due to the bottom o-ring not being oriented right or not seated properly and issues with the floating pin that a normal user wouldn't be able to figure out.

I think there is an excellent chance that a side by side vaping comparison of flavors could point to a difference that wasn't experienced by Busardo with a single tank evaluation by Busardo on the first Subtank. And quite honestly, Busardo wasn't the only one saying this material might not have been the best choice, Kanger says the same thing and followed that up with a quick replacement with what they felt was a better material. And if the new material is even better, I certainly am not complaining.

As I've said before, I think the Subtank (especially the 22mm mini) is to me the best clearo on the market. I think they made some subtle but vey effective changes in the design for the original... which was already a very good tank. And I give Kanger huge credit for addressing an issue they felt needed attention very quickly and offering free upgrades. I really don't feel they could have handled this any better than they did. It certainly gives me confidence in their products going forward.

 

[drunkenbatman]

I think there is an excellent chance that a side by side vaping comparison of flavors could point to a difference that wasn't experienced by Busardo with a single tank evaluation by Busardo on the first Subtank.

Nog if I'm remembering right, he did that as a build and test in one day as opposed to the OCC coils which he spent a bunch of time with (I love those OCC coils btw -- so glad they didn't go with the prototypes). At the least it would imply that if it does affect every eliquid the effect isn't immediate.

I'll have to go through his later videos in a bit, but I know several people who have them along with kayfuns, which is why I'm so confused by the "every juice tastes bad" thing. I've never seen this popping up with them or in the forums, and when I helped rebuild a coil on a tank that'd seen 3 weeks of daily use, nothing seemed overly weird and it tasted like it was supposed to taste.

And quite honestly, Busardo wasn't the only one saying this material might not have been the best choice, Kanger says the same thing and followed that up with a quick replacement with what they felt was a better material. And if the new material is even better, I certainly am not complaining.

I'm confused here -- everyone is saying that original material was disappointing at its price point. The only thing I'm confused about or take issue with is the idea that all the subtanks had an insulator that was dissolving or interacting with all eliquids.

If, in most of the tanks it was a cheaper quality insulator that I have in some of my cheap atomizers, that's one thing. The kayfun insulator isn't known for its long life, and it is what it is. However, if every tank had some bizarro unheard-of insulator that could potentially make people sick using their RY4 or snickerdoodle eliquid, my ears perk up in a big way as that'd say something worrying about the choices they're making.

Just to be clear -- I'm not calling you out or anything, I just like to know what is actually and fully going on, so if I say something I can say *why* I said it, not just that someone somewhere said it and I adopted it. And there's a big difference between a cheap insulator, a small batch of defective ones, and every tank having an insulator that'll make all eliquid taste bad.

 

[ErnieKim]

Unlike you, I think Busardo does have enough experience with juice testing to do an A-B comparison for juice flavor. He has been testing juice for quite a while and does have quite a bit of experience with it and has generally been considered as fair with his assessments. But if you doubt his results, no problem.

Also, from your earlier posts somehow you are comparing Kanger's issues to completely unrelated issues about Aspire, P4U, and Chinese manufcurers use of leaded brass. These have no bearing in this discussion and just muddy the issue to the point of uselessness. Please try to stay on topic and not obfuscate the issue about Kanger's choice of insulator material. It really has no bearing and takes the topic far afield.

All this being said, I look forward to your review and the obvious conclusion that you discern no difference in juice flavor with different insulator materials.

I didn't bring up the brass, no biggie though as people look to this forum for recommendations and if there's something out there of concern this is the only place they are going to find it. Lots of smart people here and the manufacturers certainly aren't going to be very forward with negative info.
Someone like Busardo is the other place they'll find it so it troubles me if I see something there that is inaccurate. People might think that it tastes OK so it is OK when it's not OK.
The other concern I have is that he said that the new PEEK insulator is clear. The replacements I got directly from Kanger are brown. More misinformation? I don't know, I'm sending an email to Kanger to get clarification.
I keep trying different folks on YouTube and in the end, I always come back to this forum for accurate information.
ErnieKim

 

[Rizzyking]

Well my subtanks original insulator is still as solid as the day I bought it and given the amount of tank cracking nasties I've put through it I think were talking small batch of problems rather then a general issue of the friends I've got with subtanks again no issues at all. Kanger have done right by their customers giving out free replacements and erring on the side of caution because the subtank has sold quite well and reports of melting insulators are not very common at all.

 

[inspects]

I have been using the Kanger sub tank and Kanger sub tank mini for a couple weeks, nothing to report here, insulators are fine. I'll certainly keep an eye on them.

 

[ErnieKim]

Got my new Kanger Subtank Mini!! The mini came with a brown insulator, the same color as the replacements they sent me for the full size Subtank. Kanger USA also responded to my email stating that the insulator Busardo had was not one of their replacement PEEK insulators; as he said it was. In summary, it bothers me when "Experts" spread misinformation on such a scale. "no information is better than bad information"; this could of course be said other ways.

Attached is a picture of the genuine Kanger replacement insulators.