- Status
Actually I am trying to prevent overreach. There is a valid principle being noticed here but, having noticed it, we move beyond it to get to the crux of the situation. The temperature claim is inaccurate, though it does illustrate the concept well. The result is ... watts matter for what watts matter for, which makes for a crappy thread title.
You kind of got it but that's also a no-brainer at this point, and was found out pretty much upon the advent of VW. The point of this thread, at least I saw it, was to understand why different atomizers might behave differently at similar power levels. It's not something easily summed up with a broad pronouncement like "watts do not matter" ... but that statement kind of primes the mind for the level of conceptualization to follow.
Eh, you fell off the thought train again. At the same wattage there absolutely is a cap on the amount of heat being generated. Turning your stove up is increasing your power/wattage. Of course something will boil faster if you do that.
The real question is, if you put the pan on a small burner or a larger burner -- at the same wattage -- which will boil faster?
Performance would be quite different in this case.
All depends on the build.
IMO the coil/wick package might not even be the most important factor in atomizer performance at any given wattage. And that's if we have the same opinion of what atomizer performance is!
Last edited:
Now that I'd agree with... The physical reality of hand wrapping coils makes a certain amount of variation inevitable IMO.
But... I think the important thing to take away, isn't necessarily the ability to wrap a perfect wick & coil every time consistently. It's the ability to evaluate a wick and coil so that you know what direction to go in order to make improvements and to have at least an idea of what to expect when you start tweaking the variables.
Wicks are a whole can of worms all to themselves. I've followed you hemp thread with a good deal of interest...
The atomizer itself along with air flow and air chamber size, yet another...
If we attempt to tackle all 3 in the same conversation, I agree, the number of variables can get out of hand rather quickly. Breaking down into separate topics allows for more focused discussions. This thread, seems to be geared more toward coils and wire.
No... You're confusing heat and temperature... The the temperature may remain constant but the heat (energy) does not.
Watts don't boil water. Heat does. The only way to make the water boil faster is to apply more heat.
Just because there isn't an increase in temperature, doesn't mean that there isn't more heat energy being put into the system.
@ jasl - I agree with pretty much everything you just said, except for separating the topics. The more I seem to learn the more things seem to be intertwined. Optimization as individual pieces only takes things so far. I'm not saying separate discussions aren't warranted, just that to achieve overall efficiency you will likely have different "configurations" of the individual pieces than if you optimized them separately.
you're stuck on the temperature plateau and it's upsetting your mental apple cart. In the boiling pan analogy, there IS an increase in temperature over time, as that is all measured below the phase change. Once the water starts boiling THEN temperature does not increase.
The same total heat energy is radiated from coils of different sizes at the same wattage. Given ideal thermal coupling, the transfer of heat energy into the pan would be similar between coils at the same wattage.
Sorry... I didn't mean to imply that they aren't interrelated topics. They most certainly are.
I just seem to make faster headway (speaking only for myself) by taking the "all other things held equal" approach. For me personally, moving to a different atomizer, with a different air flow, with a different, wick, with a different wire gauge and a different resistance... Doesn't teach me anything.
Keeping everything as consistent as possible while manipulating only a single variable at a time, gives me a far deeper insight into how that variable affects the vape. After I have an understanding of the variables individually, I can begin to move multiple variables in unison and still have have a good idea of what results to expect.
That said, we all process information differently. I know what works for me. That doesn't mean it's the best approach for everyone else.
My apple cart is just fine... I've already acknowledged that the temp doesn't increase beyond the boiling temp of the liquid. You aren't making any new point here...
Here you are flat out wrong. If what you are saying we're true, wire gauge selection and resistance would have no impact assuming that all selections were able to reach the boiling point of the liquid.
Anyone who's build more than a single coil knows that is not the case. For a given power source, atty & wick... I can drastically alter the quality of my vape by simply changing wire gauge, resistance or both.
Nope that's not what would happen if it's true, because it's true. It's the basis of this thread, by the way.
But not the wire temperature during proper operation. "Vape quality" is a culmination of many variables. Simply changing wire gauge changes at least 3 variables (from the usual vapers' list of rudimentary variables) -- resistance, coil surface area and coil spacing. You may change coil diameter, wick diameter, wick contact (thus heat transfer) ... all by changing the "single variable" of wire guage.
You guys are nuts ....and I thought carburetors were a pita....but compared to the depth of this discussion I'll take the carburetor 
I don't mind getting a little bit in depth into physics behind things, but at the end of the day I'm a tune by ear and seat of the pants kind of person.
Tell you what, my latest dirt bike is fuel injected and it is so much better than a carbed bike in so many ways. I pretty much just get on it and it rips (well at least for a fat aging guy like me), but no fuss and great performance. I want a "fuel injected" equivalent PV and then I'll be happy
....and I thought carburetors were a pita....but compared to the depth of this discussion I'll take the carburetor I don't mind getting a little bit in depth into physics behind things, but at the end of the day I'm a tune by ear and seat of the pants kind of person.
Tell you what, my latest dirt bike is fuel injected and it is so much better than a carbed bike in so many ways. I pretty much just get on it and it rips (well at least for a fat aging guy like me), but no fuss and great performance. I want a "fuel injected" equivalent PV and then I'll be happy
You guys are nuts
I don't mind getting a little bit in depth into physics behind things, but at the end of the day I'm a tune by ear and seat of the pants kind of person.
Tell you what, my latest dirt bike is fuel injected and it is so much better than a carbed bike in so many ways. I pretty much just get on it and it rips (well at least for a fat aging guy like me), but no fuss and great performance. I want a "fuel injected" equivalent PV and then I'll be happy
I've seen enough of your stuff in the modding forums to know that if anybody can do it, it's you. Some beautiful work BTW!
I'm not sure how to but into this however what you call heat is energy, measured in joules. Joules boil water and a joule can also be expressed as a watt second (the equivalent energy of one watt for one second). Joule heating, expressed as Q, is equal to (I^2)R (this is Joule's first law). You will likely notice this is the same formula as for W, watts. As Dr. G is trying to convince you, and you acknowledge, increasing heat (joules or watt seconds) into the system will not necessarily increase temperature. If an atomizer is working right, it will increase the amount of energy transferred to the juice, which is the idea. This transfer can't be measured by temperature. Temperature stays the same. So it can be hard to compare two atomizers using just temperature, impossible actually, unless one of them essentially fails and goes over temp (which is useful information, but kind of a blunt club of a measure).
I think part of the issue is we're all talking about different things. You are right that taking a specific RBA with a specific wick and specific juice at a specific voltage and trying different wire diameters will give you different results. Why that is gets a lot more interesting than just it is because you can also change all that other stuff and also get different and reasonably predictable results if you get what's really going on.
Last edited:
Trying to follow this thread and I'm totally confused, are you guys talking about atomizers, coil wiring, wicking, stoves, carburetors or dirt bikes?
Short answer is - Yes
But I will leave carburetors and dirt bikes out from now on.
I believe this thread was started to debunk the perception that a VW will perform the same on any configuration of atty for a given wattage. Gdeal and others offered a lot of the science behind it to help others further understand.
Despite some "constructive criticism" this thread is really one of the best at digging in and taking a look at the how's and whys of an atty.
This is Watt (pun intended) this thread is about.
Two wires, 33g and 28g both 2ohm.
33g at 4 watts, hot enough to vaporize juice.
28g at 4 watts, not hot enough to vaporize juice.
Two wires, 33g and 28g both 2ohm.
33g at 4 watts, hot enough to vaporize juice.
28g at 4 watts, not hot enough to vaporize juice.
Hands down the best explanation given thus far!
This is Watt (pun intended) this thread is about.
Two wires, 33g and 28g both 2ohm.
33g at 4 watts, hot enough to vaporize juice.
28g at 4 watts, not hot enough to vaporize juice.
Hands down the best explanation given thus far!
It should be possible to explain the laws of physics to a barmaid.
Albert Einstein
It should be possible to explain the laws of physics to a barmaid.
Albert Einstein
Funny... I actually had this quote in mind...
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." ~ Albert Einstein
Yep, the only exam I ever failed was over 50 years ago, the oral exam for for my flight instructor license. The question was "why does an airplane fly". As an Aero Eng I gave my answer, and the FAA inspector failed me because it was correct but too technical for a beginning student to understand. He took a sheet of paper, held it between his fingers so it formed an airfoil. When he blew air over the paper and it would rise. He said that is why an airplane flies. Needless to say I learned a lesson and passed on the second try.Funny... I actually had this quote in mind...
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." ~ Albert Einstein
- Status
Similar threads
