What the {edited} is wrong with this industry?

[Robert Cromwell]

The hoops really start at the end of this year.

 

[Lessifer]

I really feel for vendors right now, they have to jump thru all these hoops to be able to sell only 2 more years! Honestly if I were a vendor I think I'd bail on 8-8-16. Just so much hassle.

I've said it before, elsewhere, anyone choosing to stay in business at this point is brave and has my gratitude for that.

 

[MMW]

Any idea on how they would enforce such miniscule regs as twisting a coil? Or any of these regulations? Does it fall on each state to enforce these things, like a health inspector?

I for one, think that they overreached on purpose so it looks better in the end.

 

[Lessifer]

Any idea on how they would enforce such miniscule regs as twisting a coil? Or any of these regulations? Does it fall on each state to enforce these things, like a health inspector?

I for one, think that they overreached on purpose so it looks better in the end.

Same way they enforce age restrictions for cigarettes, they send someone in posing as a consumer.

I've seen this idea of "they made the regs really bad so they can settle for less" before, and there's one thing I don't understand. These are the Final rules. For all intents and purposes they go live in two weeks. Where is this "end?"

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Any idea on how they would enforce such miniscule regs as twisting a coil? Or any of these regulations? Does it fall on each state to enforce these things, like a health inspector?

I for one, think that they overreached on purpose so it looks better in the end.

ATF and Many state agencies since it will be a tobacco product.
Some states will require a tobacco retailers license for vape shops after 8-8 and the number requiring this will rapidly grow. Some vape shop owners will not be able to get a tobacco retailers license due to criminal backgrounds and such.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Same way they enforce age restrictions for cigarettes, they send someone in posing as a consumer.

I've seen this idea of "they made the regs really bad so they can settle for less" before, and there's one thing I don't understand. These are the Final rules. For all intents and purposes they go live in two weeks. Where is this "end?"

The regs are intentionally written open ended. There is no end.

 

[Baditude]

Any idea on how they would enforce such miniscule regs as twisting a coil? Or any of these regulations?

When I worked at a vape shop nearly 2 years ago, management made sure that we always enforced the 18 year old age rule in our state. If anyone looked under 30 years old, we couldn't sell anything unless we saw a picture ID. We couldn't even sell anything to a parent who was attempting to buy an e-cigarette for their under-age child who was a smoker. We were always on the lookout for a possible undercover "plant" -- federal authorities paying a minor a few bucks to try to buy something in our store.

We were told by management that failure to check ID's appropriately and inadvertently selling to a minor would be automatic termination, because both the store and sales staff could be prosecuted resulting in a fine and jail time.

I imagine the same could be true for your "miniscule regs as twisting a coil". Anyone can "pose' as a customer in an attempt to find a rules violation.

 

[MMW]

So then it would be a state enforcement, ala "boots on the ground".

My point being that they seemed to have a broad umbrella of definitions/actions that they know will be challenged/settled, and will make it for some to be a win inside of a huge loss. @Lessifer that is the end. Meaning the FDA endgame.

 

[subwayaznm]

I would have to say that we Vapers know more about it than many selling the products. As stated above many just jumped in to get a fast buck without any business knowledge or knowledge of the products being sold in their establishment. Also in the beginning I would presume that there were very few Regulations since the Industry was so new to the Public & Governing Bodies; with the exception of the age laws for Tobacco. Figured as long as they went with the markets flow they would be fine. Since they have done the inherent human thing and procrastinated along with letting the chips fall as they may. A sad state of affairs, but it is what it is.

 

[Lessifer]

So then it would be a state enforcement, ala "boots on the ground".

My point being that they seemed to have a broad umbrella of definitions/actions that they know will be challenged/settled, and will make it for some to be a win inside of a huge loss. @Lessifer that is the end. Meaning the FDA endgame.

I'm not so sure the FDA anticipated much of a legal challenge. After all, the cigarette rules, which are pretty much the same, have gone mostly uncontested for the past 7 years.

 

[Lessifer]

Not sure if this is confirmed, but it sounds like boots are already on the ground.

 

[OlderNDirt]

Same way they enforce age restrictions for cigarettes, they send someone in posing as a consumer.

Just rumor I heard, no more, no less. I heard hiring is already in progress with emphasis on females age 16 - 17. I hope they follow child labor laws !

 

[DC2]

I'm not so sure the FDA anticipated much of a legal challenge. After all, the cigarette rules, which are pretty much the same, have gone mostly uncontested for the past 7 years.

It seems to me the "goals" could have been easily accomplished with one simple rule...
No open systems.

That is easy to justify, easy to control, easy to tax, easy to monitor.
So I am a bit confounded as to why the FDA went to such extremes with the deeming.

There are a lot of theories I entertain...
--They went way too far on purpose, in order to eventually settle for less
--They went as far as they did to appease the letter-writing Democrats and/or the nannies
--They truly believe they actually had no choice in how to interpret their mandate (Lessifer)
--The real "goals" are not actually what I think they are

But in no way do I see a situation where the FDA would not expect many serious legal challenges.
The DEMON regulations are just way too nuts.

 

[ENAUD]

So I just got home from visiting a local shop, it's a rather large chain with maybe 100 more or less storefronts. One guy working the store, totally clueless. Open air juice mixing bar full stocked, I asked, so all this is going to go away in two weeks? gesturing towards the vast array..his response...uh, I don't know, maybe we'll put up some glass and call it a lab... he had no idea that mixing custom juice would be considered manufacturing, but they did stop wrapping coils for customers

I did notice that they had run down their stock quite a bit since my last visit, my guess, the owners are going to just pull the plug. If this shop is any indication of the level of awareness out there, the FDA is going to have a field day.

 

[Rule62]

I was talking the other day to a guy I know who is a co-owner of a vape shop in my town. He happens to also be a sherrif deputy of the county. I asked him who would be responsible for enforcing the new regs.
At least here in Florida, enforcement will be done by the FDAB&T (Florida Department of Alcoholic Bverage & Tobacco). They already have their marching orders, which will include underage 'plants' and fake customers.
So, I'm assuming it will be up to each state to enforce, using whatever their appropriate state agency is.

 

[WillyZee]

Undercover sting operations busting Vape shops ... such noble service.


Sent via iPhone

 

[Lessifer]

Just rumor I heard, no more, no less. I heard hiring is already in progress with emphasis on females age 16 - 17. I hope they follow child labor laws !

In California it's under 21...

(c) Provide that primary responsibility for enforcement of this division shall be with the department. In carrying out its enforcement responsibilities, the department shall conduct random, onsite sting inspections at retail sites and shall enlist the assistance of persons that are under 21 years of age in conducting these enforcement activities. The department may conduct onsite sting inspections in response to public complaints or at retail sites where violations have previously occurred, and investigate illegal sales of tobacco products to any person under 21 years of age by telephone, mail, or the Internet. A person under 21 years of age who participates in these enforcement activities is immune from prosecution under any provision of law prohibiting the purchase of these products by a person under 21 years of age.
(d) In accordance with Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code, the department shall adopt and publish guidelines for the use of persons under 21 years of age in inspections conducted pursuant to subdivision (c) that shall include, but not be limited to, all of the following:
(1) An enforcing agency may use persons under 21 years of age in random inspections to determine if sales of cigarettes or other tobacco products are being made to persons under 21 years of age.
(2) A photograph or video recording of the person under 21 years of age shall be taken prior to each inspection or shift of inspections and retained by the enforcing agency for purposes of verifying appearances.
(3) An enforcing agency may use video recording equipment when conducting the inspections to record and document illegal sales or attempted sales.
(4) The person under 21 years of age, if questioned about his or her age, need not state his or her actual age but shall present a true and correct identification if verbally asked to present it. Any failure on the part of the person under 21 years of age to provide true and correct identification, if verbally asked for it, shall be a defense to an action pursuant to this section.
(5) The person under 21 years of age shall be under the supervision of a regularly employed peace officer during the inspection.
(6) All persons under 21 years of age used in this manner by an enforcing agency shall display the appearance of a person under 21 years of age. It shall be a defense to an action under this division that the person’s appearance was not that which could be generally expected of a person under 21 years of age, under the actual circumstances presented to the seller of the cigarettes or other tobacco products at the time of the alleged offense.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

In FL underage are not allowed to possess vape stuff.

 

[OlderNDirt]

In California it's under 21...

Hey, Kid! What do you want to be when you grow up?

"Batchiz? We done need no stinkin batchiz!

 

[Tommy-Chi]

I did not say it was not deemed a Tobacco Product my suggestion was to sell 1 to 2 ML bottles for sampling. That satisfies the SKU and taxation issues.

I thought the issue was whether or not e-liquids were going to be available? It is highly unlikely in any form including 1ml, 2ml, 5ml, 10ml, 20ml, 30ml, ... Nobody is going to pay the $500k to get the PMTA cert.