Why Buy American?

[Justin66]

I know I may "stir the wok" here, but I am slightly confused sometimes over the pro-american attitude towards vaping devices and accessories. I am all about supporting my country and such, but some people get really extreme with this it seems. Here's where my questions rise, first off I have had 0 issue's with any of my Chinese stuff. And, I have to say that I have some things like mods and drip shields and such that actually perform better than the american versions, at half the price! I mean, didn't China invent the e-cig anyway? Now, I hear things about idea's being ripped off by them and then with their child labor or whatever they produce the same thing cheaper and run us out of business. But then there are tons of american vendors that are IN business selling Chinese stuff. It just seems a little silly sometimes to me. And, unfortunately there are a lot of budget vapers out there like myself that have other, more important things, to spend their money on. So, if China is going to produce decent-working (even better working IMO) devices and such at half the price, then that is probably the direction I will continue to go. I know there are QC issue's in China, but I can't say as I have complete confidence in our american production either. Unfortunately, american quality in the past has shown most of the time to not stand up very well against the foreign competition in things like electronics, cars, motorcycles, etc. Just my two cents. But maybe someone can shed a new light on this for me, because I really don't get it.

Yeah... they usually bltch from their Chinese-made computer/tablet/smartphone while having their Chinese-made TV or stereo playing in the background.

I'm big into golf- I build my own sticks, want to get into the business of it. But what people don't realize is that there's only about 10 foundries in China and Taiwan that can handle manufacturing the club heads. That means those same Callaway's and Nike's are being made on the same machines as those from Hireko Golf and The GolfWorks, by the same people, with the same materials, to the same standards. Yet people think they're getting something better because of the higher pricepoint, completely ignoring the fact that those big-name companies spend tens of millions of dollars on advertising and pro sponsorships in a single year... something the lesser-known brands won't do.

My official (for what that's worth... probably not much LOL) stance is this: PV/APV's are to help people ditch the harmful analogs. I don't give a rat's ... if it's variable wattage, variable voltage, a 3.7v, 5v, entry-level eGo, or some $300 "it" model... they all do the same job. I'm going on 11 months being completely analog-free, and my two most expensive mods cost me $50 each. Would I be more analog-free if I went with a ProVari or a Genesis? Obviously not. People are obviously allowed to spend their money as they see fit- but making suggestions that the things coming out of China are somehow junk is ridiculous, especially given their global manufacturing presence in every other walk of life.

Cowboy, you keep on keeping on. Sorry for getting so long-winded... it happens with me. That's why I don't post so much, though... most times I end up with hand cramps.

 

[mwa102464]

I have lived in the far east for 13 years, and without a doubt, attitude to one's job and life long loyalty to one's company are very different between Asian and Western. In Japan, a man is more married to his company than to his wife. They work late and on weekends if necessary without any overtime wages, take severe bonus and pay cuts if the company is having difficulties and usually stay with one company for their entire working careers. Through thick and thin.
They often get recruited/ head hunted, even before leaving university. This is now... It used to be like that in the west, but now money is king, and every man for himself. I am just noting the differences in work attitude, not making any personal judgements either way (obviously). I personally, change jobs when I don't like something or when my company can't pay me, or expects me to work every Sunday for 13 hours, or when I get a better offer or even just if I'm bored. I have worked for 6 different companies in just 13 years here.... I am not Chinese or Japanese, and I suppose I prefer to look after number one. But how can we ever compete???

I understand what you mean, but I don't see how the US can go back to being an industrial nation when almost everything can be imported at a fraction of the price.

Different countries people have there different customs for sure,,, I wouldn't even want to be more married to my company then my wife, though I can be at times, and most Americans would agree I think. There are other ways for companies to be successful, for one they run dual and third shifts instead of over working there work force. America and the far west have different philosophies being give your workers a life, give them a vacation so they stay fresh, where the Chinese dont have these same philosophies and burn out there workers and think it is a good thing and like its respectful to kill yourself working to death, like you say being married to there companies more then there wives, ( who would ever want that not I ) , I chose and like the USA way much better, trust me Manufacturing will come back to the USA, we let those jobs go over seas thinking this way would work, it clearly hasn't, those jobs are going to be taken back over the years and the USA will use there technology to get them back. Our Govt is going to start to tax those import goods soon, just a 10% tax would pay for health insurance for the every individual in our nation, and its going to happen trust me, and maybe much higher then 10% more like 25%, the day is coming, and the USA is going to once again be the engine that is the strongest in the world as it always has been and still really is, it always has been and always will be. Just because some politicians made some bad decisions 10yrs or more ago thinking they could let manufacturing go overseas doesn't mean new politicians will make those same decisions Keep a close eye on the USA and its Govt to be making some serious changes in the next 8yrs and longer. Taking back every dam job they ever let go, and adding millions more then ever before.

 

[DaveP]

It's all about profit. When China finally become too expensive to pay shipping rates on top of the cost of production, offshore manufacturing will find a new country and start them up in the manufacturing business. When China first began to make U.S. goods, workers were making about 25 cents (USD). Now, they are making about $3.50 an hour with little in the way of benefits and many sleep in a shared room and work 12 and 16 hours shifts.

Unions are taking hold in China in spite of government attempts to stop them. Unions drove the price up in America to the point where corporations decided they weren't going to take it anymore. They moved from the U.S. and they will move from China when that happens there. Some will come back, but only if they can negotiate a low wage deal with workers in the U.S. states. Right to work states are getting that business because government doesn't require them to deal with unions. This is why jobs and workers are geographically separated. The trained workers are in union states and the jobs are in non-unions states. You have to move to get an American manufacturing jobs these days.

 

[mwa102464]

Here's my take. You don't Have to have an american mod to get a good vape. Matter of fact, some fellow vapers of mine prefer my VMAX over their Provari's. And have even made the switch and only paying half price what they had for their PV's. Many people will say that they get as good of a vape off an ego, LT, etc. etc. as they do a Darwin. A lot of that comes down to your volts and so on, but if you are not a HV type person, most will say the end result is close enough for the money. I love my Empire shields because the way they "look." But my imported shields actually give me better performance and fit at half the price, personally. I also have a few friends that have their Darwin's and Provari's away right now being repaired. I'm not saying that there isn't more time taken on the fit and finish of american mods sometimes, but I really don't think you have to pay twice as much if you don't care about that. I think Ferrari's are sweet looking, but even if I were a billionaire I would not spend that on a car to get me from point A to B. Chances are the electronics inside your US mods are the same as the Chinese ones. They just "look" better. Another example, I do have a Kick, but I didn't need to drop it in to a Silver Bullet shell. My Bolt has housed it and fired it without fail for a very long time. So, my answer is the lack of quality in performance compared to price is just that. What are you paying for if they all perform the same? "Looks?"

You better take a look at the way the Chinese are copying some of the best USA made mods, the Lava tube couldn't hold the Darwins or Provari's Jock Strap,,, the VMAX is a total copy of the Provari, OUR TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING AND BUILDS, are WAY BETTER, it's like comparing a Toyota to a Rolls Royce, and the Chinese are well known for duplicating our better engineered goods, all the way down to Gucci purses to every other super made product here in the USA, and just ask most people which they would rather have the real thing or the Bootleg copy, most all would chose the real deal, and its always been like this. Here is just another thing the Govt of the USA will sooner or later crack down harder on, as well as taxing the Balls off of the far east products that are exported into the USA, The USA will start taxing there goods and taxing them HARD & HARDER & HARDER, to a point it wont pay for them to even export good here, and we will be manufacturing our own goods again,,,, the USA was built on our great engineering & technology and manufacturing, its been the heartbeat of the USA FOREVER, the countries heartbeat may have slowed down, but it hasn't stopped, consider it a break , times a coming where our Govt is going to have to be forced to take these jobs back, make changes, and very soon these changes are going to take place,,,, its all about moving the Govt around like playing chess, the new players will come in and make change in order to correct the mistakes and bad decisions old Govt official have made. It's a vicious cycle it seems and change is well over due and needed, so its going to take place mark my words on this.

 

[dragonbone]

Different countries people have there different customs for sure,,, I wouldn't even want to be more married to my company then my wife, though I can be at times, and most Americans would agree I think. There are other ways for companies to be successful, for one they run dual and third shifts instead of over working there work force. America and the far west have different philosophies being give your workers a life, give them a vacation so they stay fresh, where the Chinese dont have these same philosophies and burn out there workers and think it is a good thing and like its respectful to kill yourself working to death, like you say being married to there companies more then there wives, ( who would ever want that not I ) , I chose and like the USA way much better, trust me Manufacturing will come back to the USA, we let those jobs go over seas thinking this way would work, it clearly hasn't, those jobs are going to be taken back over the years and the USA will use there technology to get them back. Our Govt is going to start to tax those import goods soon, just a 10% tax would pay for health insurance for the every individual in our nation, and its going to happen trust me, and maybe much higher then 10% more like 25%, the day is coming, and the USA is going to once again be the engine that is the strongest in the world as it always has been and still really is, it always has been and always will be. Just because some politicians made some bad decisions 10yrs or more ago thinking they could let manufacturing go overseas doesn't mean new politicians will make those same decisions Keep a close eye on the USA and its Govt to be making some serious changes in the next 8yrs and longer. Taking back every dam job they ever let go, and adding millions more then ever before.

Well, I applaud your patriotism! But, btw, aren't all the unskilled, the labour, the construction and the factory jobs in the US filled by Mexicans and other foreign workers etc. who are still taking all their money out of the US anyway?

 

[dragonbone]

You better take a look at the way the Chinese are copying some of the best USA made mods, the Lava tube couldn't hold the Darwins or Provari's Jock Strap,,, the VMAX is a total copy of the Provari, OUR TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING AND BUILDS, are WAY BETTER, it's like comparing a Toyota to a Rolls Royce, and the Chinese are well known for duplicating our better engineered goods, all the way down to Gucci purses to every other super made product here in the USA,....

Gucchi bags are made in Italy and Rolls Royce in the UK? Not the US.

 

[mwa102464]

Well, I applaud your patriotism! But, btw, aren't all the unskilled, the labour, the construction and the factory jobs in the US filled by Mexicans and other foreign workers etc. who are still taking all their money out of the US anyway?

That's a whole another story, and yes they where, but production and manufacturing was way down at these times, recession was taking place, and that's just another problem the USA let happen by letting people into this country illegally, there is another change that's taken place, many of those illegal's , as well as any and all Illegals have been getting chased back out, if you want to come into this country fine, but you have to do it legally, and that's another thing the people of the USA stood up for once they saw the problems happening and are fighting hard to try to stop now, and many have fled back out in fear of getting caught,,, just goes to show that everyone wants to come to the USA because its the greatest nation in the WORLD, and its only going to get better too, it's all about leadership and having the right people in office to do the job, and making the changes take place that need to happen. The current bum in office hasn't done a dam thing, and that's why he is getting removed and very soon.

 

[Underwhelmed]

Some of the posts on this thread are really just too funny for words.

All these folks arguing about Chinese made "junk" and the whole time using Chinese made "junk" computers, phones or tablets and most vaping on Chinese made "junk" batteries no matter where their "mod" was built. None of you are using American made batteries unless you built them yourself, which is unlikely.

And they are called mods because they are modifications of a patented Chinese invention.

 

[mwa102464]

Gucchi bags are made in Italy and Rolls Royce in the UK? Not the US.

Point was the Chinese are well known for copying better engineered products,,,,,,,,

 

[mwa102464]

Some of the posts on this thread are really just too funny for words.

All these folks arguing about Chinese made "junk" and the whole time using Chinese made "junk" computers, phones or tablets and most vaping on Chinese made "junk" batteries no matter where their "mod" was built. None of you are using American mad batteries unless you built them yourself, which is unlikely.

And they are called mods because they are modifications of a patented Chinese invention.

Actually the first E-cig was patent in the USA Hon Lik took it to the next level

And credit is given where it is deserved, but actually Japan has much better engineering then China, but lets credit both on there electronics they have always done well here.

And I also realize the USA has fallen a notch or two with some mistakes we have made, and some weak leadership has allowed this to happen,,, but on the flip side dont think for one moment the USA isnt going to turn it around and Rise to a new higher level once again, it always has whenever problems arose they have risen to a higher level and fixed the mistakes they have made,,,, I believe this same thing will happen again and the USA will step it up and only become a stronger economy and an even better place and stronger Nation which has always happen with in the vicious cycle of Governments and Economies. If you don't believe so then just look at the track record of the USA

And by the way, I'll take my Darwin, Provari, Reo's, and Buzz's,,,, over any Chinese made mod on the earth, and always will, and gladly pay a few bucks more for these much better engineered mods. I'll also put Texas Instruments ( TI ) up against anyone when it comes to building Semi Conductors and other products = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments

 

[Justin66]

Lol... Yes, but that isn't going to happen, is it? Let's take your average 'factory worker'...,
Your average American is not 'proud' of their company, only of themselves. They are not grateful for their job or to their company. They want to give way less - for - FAR, FAR more money and perks then their Asian counterparts. They expect a king's ransom in wages for unskilled labour. Work is just a necessary means to an end, whereas in Asian countries, it is so much more. Americans want out the door at 5 sharp, and if not, they want overtime and double time etc. They demand and expect X amounts of holiday, off days, sick days, tea breaks and meal breaks, medical aid, paid maternity leave, compassionate leave, unemployment etc. and other perks. If things don't go their way, they will leave or they will sue, or they will strike and bankrupt their company or industry... But hey, as long as they get what's coming to them, who cares?

They are far fatter, sicker, angrier, lazier, with more personal issues and less productive hours etc. than their Asian factory worker counterparts.



P.S. I am in no way bashing anyone. Just stating the facts. Times have changed....

Yeah- come back to me when you get real "facts" instead of generalizations, or have to face being on maternity leave with no pay (FMLA or S&A), or have your company decide to drop your pay while you work longer hours and tell me how loyal you'd be. Everyone thinks their worth something- obviously you do, but why is that? Is your reasoning better than someone else's? What would you do if your company decided you were no longer "worth" what you currently are? I highly doubt you'd agree to that... But if/when you lose your job and all you have left is "You wanna supersize that?", tell me how you feel about what you're worth. Until then, you have no room to talk.

 

[dragonbone]

Yeah- come back to me when you get real "facts" instead of generalizations, or have to face being on maternity leave with no pay (FMLA or S&A), or have your company decide to drop your pay while you work longer hours and tell me how loyal you'd be. Everyone thinks their worth something- obviously you do, but why is that? Is your reasoning better than someone else's? What would you do if your company decided you were no longer "worth" what you currently are? I highly doubt you'd agree to that... But if/when you lose your job and all you have left is "You wanna supersize that?", tell me how you feel about what you're worth. Until then, you have no room to talk.

Maybe you should read post #60.....

 

[Justin66]

So an American-made clone is "better" than a Chinese-made clone because it was made in America?

Here's another fun little tidbit, from the Wall Street Journal:
Are Designer Sunglasses Worth the Price? - WSJ.com

It's about the differences between "designer" sunglasses and "other" sunglasses. It's the same point I made about a Chinese made mod and a ProVari. Like also said, people have free will on how to spend their money- but the bare bones about it is smoking seccation. A $40 Bolt, $50 lavatube clone, $25 eGo-T, or $20 box mod from Mad Vapes will do that just as well as a $250 ProVari... IF the person is ready to quit the analogs. The rest is just details, which should be taken care of on an individual basis.

 

[Butters78]

Provaris are going for 250 now? I'm glad I got mine when I did..

 

[Xaiver]

....And they are called mods because they are modifications of a patented Chinese invention.

They're called Mod batteries because they're used in Mods. Just like Flashlight batteries are used in Flashlights. Car batteries are normally used in cars. Cell Phone batteries are used in....Cell Phones. You see where I'm going with this?

Edit: Or did I misunderstand that? The previous paragraph was all about batteries, and there wasn't a specific topic for this one, I assumed that it was a run-in.

If you were referring to that mods were named what they are based on the first e-cig... They're usually called Battery Mods, because the battery holder is what's been changed. It seems a bit strange at this point to be referring to them as modifications of an invention.

Stealth Bombers are a modification of the Wright Brother's plane, I suppose...but who really makes that connection? And to what end?

 

[zoiDman]

So an American-made clone is "better" than a Chinese-made clone because it was made in America?

...

I don't know if "Better" is how I would describe it.

But if Something, Anything, is Manufactured inside the USA, then hopefully it was made by an American Citizen. And the wages earned to make the Product support the US Economy.

I don’t Really care what the Country of Origin is for the Person who Designed it. Or who was the First Person to think up the Idea. I’m not even that Upset when it’s a Non-American Company if the Labor is done Inside the USA (BMW’s made in Tennessee).

I just like the idea of an American Worker having a Job and getting paid on Friday for a week’s worth of work.

 

[Cowboy Cru]

American mods are the best honestly.. OP, can you site an instance where a Chinese PV is overall better than its American counterpart?

VMAX (with more power) vs. Provari for at least half the price. Pure performance based not "looks." Although my SS Max looks pretty damn good. Bolt w/Kick vs. Silver Bullet w/Kick, half price again................

 

[Cowboy Cru]

It's not just the girl in China though- it's the kids in other countries who are being sucked dry. Some of these kids are third generation unemployed because there are no jobs. Mechanisation is taking jobs, outsourcing is taking jobs, longer working hours are taking jobs.

Ever wondered why so many people do 60 hour weeks when you could employ two people to do two thirty hour weeks? People talk about work/life balance but nothing gets done about it. Why? The cost of living is too high. Why is that? Because as long as there is a high demand for consumer goods, prices will rise.

But demand drives productivity, marketing creates demand... the cheaper you can produce, the more money you make, the more demand you create, the more money you make.

Got one TV? Get three! Got 8 TV channels? Get 8000! Only real men use product x, only pretty women use product y, you will succeed if you buy product z. These are all tricks to make you feel insecure and spend money on stuff you do not need.

By promoting things as 'US Made' when it really means 'US Assembled from Chinese-Made Parts' is marketing to drive up demand. Nothing works as a lever like patriotism-especially in the US where patriotism is taught in school.

It's a global market now. We are all "citizens of the world" thanks to "free trade". Pity though that America leads the world in opening up markets whilst simultaneously closing its trade borders to other countries. Kind of smacks of 'having your cake and eating it too'. A nice one-way valve to ensure American prosperity while other countries fail.

China however has very liberal trade rules. As long as it does not undermine the CCP in Beijing, goods (some not so good!) may come in and go out pretty freely. That is 'true' "free trade" believe it or not!

All I have to say is this is a great post! I couldn't have said it any better!

 

[Cowboy Cru]

Sure sounds like you are though,,,,I highly disagree with you that Americans are not proud of there jobs and there companies, that's just an old tail,,,,,, I dont agree that every American is like that, some yes, but far from all, there are lazy Chinese people too, lazy people all over the world, that philosophy just doesn't add up. Look at Germany 25% of there work force is in manufacturing,,,, the USA MUST HAVE MANUFACTURING,,, its a fact,,,,, and I and millions of other will fight for it, we have the best technology in the world, combine that with manufacturing and you have the strongest nation in the world, which is what the USA is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Wages are going up in China manufacturing also, so they are going in another direction as well,,,,,,, Trust me manufacturing will come back to the USA,,, it may take years to re-develop,,, but private partnerships are happening and it is going to come back,,,, Boeing, and big companies, along with our Govt are going to be harder on China in the future,,, they will start taxing there products heavy and it will effect them, it is the only way change will take place, and it will be taking place. The USA chose to let all those Jobs go to other countries, just wait till they choose to take all those Jobs back Big moves will be happening and happening soon, change will be taking place.

This is fine as long as I don't have to pay some outrageous price for my e-cig stuff (when my pay is still rock bottom) just because it is "american made" and looks cool, but doesn't really DO anything different than my Chinese equipment! I guess we need to get some americans on the cartomizer wagon then! Cause I know I use A LOT of carto's and if it's anything like most U.S. e-cig stuff they will ALWAYS be "out of stock."

 

[Cowboy Cru]

Yeah... they usually bltch from their Chinese-made computer/tablet/smartphone while having their Chinese-made TV or stereo playing in the background.

I'm big into golf- I build my own sticks, want to get into the business of it. But what people don't realize is that there's only about 10 foundries in China and Taiwan that can handle manufacturing the club heads. That means those same Callaway's and Nike's are being made on the same machines as those from Hireko Golf and The GolfWorks, by the same people, with the same materials, to the same standards. Yet people think they're getting something better because of the higher pricepoint, completely ignoring the fact that those big-name companies spend tens of millions of dollars on advertising and pro sponsorships in a single year... something the lesser-known brands won't do.

My official (for what that's worth... probably not much LOL) stance is this: PV/APV's are to help people ditch the harmful analogs. I don't give a rat's ... if it's variable wattage, variable voltage, a 3.7v, 5v, entry-level eGo, or some $300 "it" model... they all do the same job. I'm going on 11 months being completely analog-free, and my two most expensive mods cost me $50 each. Would I be more analog-free if I went with a ProVari or a Genesis? Obviously not. People are obviously allowed to spend their money as they see fit- but making suggestions that the things coming out of China are somehow junk is ridiculous, especially given their global manufacturing presence in every other walk of life.

Cowboy, you keep on keeping on. Sorry for getting so long-winded... it happens with me. That's why I don't post so much, though... most times I end up with hand cramps.

Brother, be as long winded as you want! This is why I started this thread to see what people think. Sometimes I feel like the only one who isn't anti-Chinese when it comes to vaping! Which is funny, cause the people I know standing there dogging my Bolt whilst holding their SB forget that their batteries, carto's, atty's, chargers, and almost everything else they have to make that SB fire is Chinese! Lol. It's such a silly thing. I come from the country with all the Cowboy's hooting' and hollering' about only driving american cars. Yet half the time they are broke down by the side of the road in their "american" car. It's amazing how many $30,000 Harley's I pass broke down on my $3,000 Kawasaki! People ..... about companies like Honda, but do they realize how many americans have jobs because of Honda? Crazy. Pride can be the root of all evil sometimes.