Why certain regulations and bans make perfect sense

[Traver]

Should we ban dancing in public because it simulates intercourse?

Don't give them more ideas.

 

[Traver]

You do realize very low mg e-liquid can kill a child even if they get it on their skin.

Nicotine is a poison. Do not lose track of that.

Seems unlikely. The toxicity of nicotine is determined by injection directly into the blood stream of animals. I guess they had some difficulty finding human volunteers.

On the skin the absorption rate is much lower and it is metabolized while it is being absorbed.

It is a poison but it would take a lot of liquid over a large area of the skin.

 

[tj99959]

I can understand people that don't want to be exposed to cigarette smoke, but with the carcinogens and tar out of the mix with ecigs, I can't correlate that to vape. Same as calling on a ban of spray air fresheners, barbq grills, car exhaust etc. Imo, people afraid of vape are either un/misinformed or hypochondriacs.

How long are you willing to put up with the neighbors dog barking?

Lets face it, the real argument against vaping in public places is "nuances value". (same as the barking dog)
Unfortunately a large portion of society is not willing to put up with us vaping around them. Learning the facts isn't even on their to-do list.

 

[bluecat]

Seems unlikely. The toxicity of nicotine is determined by injection directly into the blood stream of animals. I guess they had some difficulty finding human volunteers.

On the skin the absorption rate is much lower and it is metabolized while it is being absorbed.

It is a poison but it would take a lot of liquid over a large area of the skin.

Actually it would depend on the dilution of the liquid nicotine.

CDC - The Emergency Response Safety and Health Database: Systemic Agent: NICOTINE - NIOSH

Nicotine (PIM)

I tried to find something on caffeine but was unable to. I would welcome a cite or site. Considering a child has almost no tolerance built up to nicotine (in most cases). A high % of pure nicotine and small spot would probably do it.

Then again it is all semantics.

I tried to find something on caffeine but was unable to. I would welcome a cite or site.

 

[Caridwen]

I can understand people that don't want to be exposed to cigarette smoke, but with the carcinogens and tar out of the mix with ecigs, I can't correlate that to vape. Same as calling on a ban of spray air fresheners, barbq grills, car exhaust etc. Imo, people afraid of vape are either un/misinformed or hypochondriacs.

I tend to agree with that. I understood when the rationale was second hand smoke- Ok to kill myself but not to kill others. The science was flawed but I went along with that. Now they want to move the goal posts and ban because it might be irritating. Living in society is irritating. People drive slow, they drive fast. Some people smell good, other's stink. Some are quiet, other are loud. That's life. Use normal civilized behavior. Dating myself but in the 80's you'd ask someone if they mined if you smoked. Never a huge issue.

I'm for no bans.

 

[Baldr]

The only ban I think really makes sense across the board isn't even in your post. That is a ban on sales to underage people. I do think it is ridiculous that were it not for some shops stopping it in many (possibly most) places there is nothing to stop a young child from walking in a store and buying a rig and high nic juice.

Yeah, they should have to spend a decade or more smoking cigs before they switch to vaping. That's how we did it, after all.

 

[macaroni]

I try to be a polite vaper ... if I know somebody is going to freak out, I vape elsewhere. But I am a bit irked that people want to send me to the "smoking area" to vape and suffer from the second hand smoke they have been telling me is so darn harmful for the last few years. I understand the non-smokers don't get how hard I've worked to kick the habit, and they don't understand I'd rather not be standing outside in the "smokers huddle" to try and avoid the weather. I just want to be left alone, and I'll make sure I don't infringe on your right to not smell blueberries, root beer, licorice, or chocolate mint.

 

[Baldr]

Bans in public places do not bother me. Basically it is about one person right to vape (insert smoke here too) vs another to be free from it. This really doesn't have anything to do with being good or bad for you.

I personally do not want to sit in a restaurant to enjoy my meal with some dude smoking or vaping near me, same with a movie/concert or what have you. I am up to the proprietor to decide.

Just wait until Colorado and Washington start getting second hand buzz complaints. That is going to be fun to watch.

I'm fine with bans in public places, so long as it's not the government making the decision. Each individual business should be allowed to decide.

If you run a restaurant, you should have to right to ban vaping, or the right to allow it. As a customer, if you want to do business with restaurant that allows vaping, you should have that option, and if you want to go to a restaurant that doesn't, that's fine too.

If I have an office and want to allow my employees to vape, I should be able to do that. I should also be allowed to say "No vaping allowed".

But the government coming in and saying "You don't have the option, we're going to treat it like smoking" is BS. And when I hear "Bans in public places do not bother me.", that's the way I envision it. The government will outlaw it and not give a damn about vapers or the people who own the businesses, and nobody will have a right to decide.

 

[holy_handgrenade]

You do realize very low mg e-liquid can kill a child even if they get it on their skin.

Nicotine is a poison. Do not lose track of that.

So is caffine.

 

[tj99959]

So is caffine.

But you really have to watch out for the dihydrogen monoxide, people die in it all the time ..........
dangerous stuff!!!!!!

 

[SilentVapidity]

Should we ban dancing in public because it simulates intercourse?

Kevin Bacon addressed this in Footloose. Sound logic.

 

[suspectK]

Same as calling on a ban of spray air fresheners, barbq grills, car exhaust etc. Imo, people afraid of vape are either un/misinformed or hypochondriacs.

Yeah, but you're not sitting in a bar constantly taking an air freshener out and spraying a large cloud... I'm sure if that became a trend, they'd consider banning air fresheners. I react to flavors. I know I'm getting a larger volume absorbed, but it doesn't make sense to act like you're not some what violating someone's personal space. People are more resilient and sensitive. Don't judge how your vapor effects other people based on your experiences.

 

[Traver]

First the only regulation at this time that I would support and would have to be clean bill with nothing else is requirement that vendors list the complete ingredient in each and every liquid. Putting on the internet would be enough for me.

I would not support a ban for children but I would oppose either. To me it seems like we are using the same arguments that are being used against us. Mainly I know if it is safe. I have no evidence that it isn't but it doesn't look good.

As for banning flavors I am against it but wouldn't put too much effort into it. A flavor ban won't stop people switching from cigarettes.They all want tobacco flavors anyway. The rest of us will find a way around that. I'm sure many of you will disagree.

Second thing, I posted about the toxicity of nicotine and some people will disagree with it. The subject is a bit off topic and I don't want to continue it here. I do think it deserves a thread of it's and will post one in the nicotine forum.


There already is a post at:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/480407-nicotine-may-not-toxic-weve-been-led-believe.html

 

[Baldr]

You do realize very low mg e-liquid can kill a child even if they get it on their skin.

Nicotine is a poison. Do not lose track of that.

Nicotine is a poison, but not at the level you are pretending.

Highly concentrated nic could kill, but I bet you can't find any recent examples of that happening.

Most of the examples of nicotine poisoning you will find are from people working in tobacco fields, where the long term exposure can add up. And they result in sickness, not in death.

If you're going to start talking about "Children Are Dying OMG!" then I'm going to ask you to name one. Just one. If you can't name a single kid that's died from this, then you are just making stuff up to complain about.

 

[p.opus]

I'd have to agree with this as well. The more I read about Nicotine, the more I'm seeing that it has the same pros/cons as caffine, which is regarded as safe. I've never seen a double caramel macchiato or that double dirty chai latte get questioned by a barista. Teenagers arent carded at Starbucks.

Let's be real. E-Juice has child protective caps for a reason and coffee does not. The amount of nicotine we typically vape has been typically within the same concentrations as found in nicotrol inhalers and patches and both of those devices contain clear warnings about safeguarding them from exposing to children. There has been numerous cases of children having extreme nicotine poisoning from ingesting nicotine gum at 4mg and getting in an ingesting patches.

If I drank 10 ml of 12mg/ml juice, I would be ingesting 120 mg of nicotine in one shot which is twice what is considered to be lethal for the average adult.

The method of inhalation and concentration of nicotine in the vapor is what keeps it from being too toxic. Not all the nicotine in the vapor is absorbed by our bodies, and it is absorbed over an extended time frame which allows our bodies to metabolize it. But let's not kid ourselves, in raw form Nic juice can be hazardous and there is reasons that the e-juice containers have child resistant caps.

Also teenagers do STUPID things and I can just see some "genius" daring his buddy to drink a 10 ml bottle of his nic juice and said idiot does so because, well, people vape it so.......how harmful can it be???? That's the LAST thing we need plastered across the news is some idiot drinking is buddy's e-juice on a dare and ending up dead.

Caffeine, on the other hand, requires an adult to drink anywhere between 80 and 100 cups of coffee to get a lethal overdose. 800 oz of liquid is different than 10ml.....OKAY???!!!???

So let's put the whole starbucks vs e-juice argument to bed, shall we. Yes, we vape in low concentrations, but to get those low concentrations we need to vape it from a fairly concentrated source. One that is hazardous and possibly lethal to children if accidentally ingested. Proper storage and control of e-juice is necessary.

Such arguments that equate nicotine and caffeine are as ignorant as the "vapor contains more toxins than smoke" ones used by the ANTZ.

I am 100% against selling nicotine "enhanced" product to minors. Yes it occurs in nature, but again, no one is getting sick of nicotine from potatoes or eggplant.

I'll use the nicotine in eggplant argument against someone who says I'm poisoning them from secondhand vape. But nicotine concentrations in raw liquid e-juice is much higher than what is in an eggplant. As responsible vapers, we need to treat our juices with respect and be extra careful of making sure our juices stay out of the reach of children.

 

[Baldr]

First the only regulation at this time that I would support and would have to be clean bill with nothing else is requirement that vendors list the complete ingredient in each and every liquid. Putting on the internet would be enough for me.

I'm curious how that would work. On the one hand, saying "We use PG, VG, nicotine in some cases, and food flavoring" is all fine and well. But do you have to specify exactly which brand of PG, where you get your VG, who sells you the nicotine, and what brands and flavors of the food flavoring you are using?

I'm pretty sure that some of the juice makers would not want to give out their recipes.

As long as it doesn't end up as a "nobody has a private recipe because it all has to be public", I'm OK with it. But I'm not sure it's needed. Without the details, we already know what they are using. And once you start giving out the details, you end up with the recipe problem.

 

[Traver]

I'm curious how that would work. On the one hand, saying "We use PG, VG, nicotine in some cases, and food flavoring" is all fine and well. But do you have to specify exactly which brand of PG, where you get your VG, who sells you the nicotine, and what brands and flavors of the food flavoring you are using?

I'm pretty sure that some of the juice makers would not want to give out their recipes.

As long as it doesn't end up as a "nobody has a private recipe because it all has to be public", I'm OK with it. But I'm not sure it's needed. Without the details, we already know what they are using. And once you start giving out the details, you end up with the recipe problem.

Flavor vendors already have to have all the ingredients they use available. So there is an example that this could work. They also have to meet GRASS standards. I am only asking for ingredients not quantities.

Juice vendors would definitely not like it.

 

[Steamix]

I am 100% against selling nicotine "enhanced" product to minors. Yes it occurs in nature, but again, no one is getting sick of nicotine from potatoes or eggplant.

I'll use the nicotine in eggplant argument against someone who says I'm poisoning them from secondhand vape. But nicotine concentrations in raw liquid e-juice is much higher than what is in an eggplant. As responsible vapers, we need to treat our juices with respect and be extra careful of making sure our juices stay out of the reach of children.

Now, juat how do I get this eggplant into my atty ??

Kidding aside, I'm with ya on that one.

The good thing is that all the vendors I shop from have all of that in place already ( i.e. childproof caps, no sale to minors, clear warnings about the risks involved, etc. ) Can't remember BT being that straightforwrd about their products in the beginning. They only came clear after there was simply too much research to ignore or talk down.

Vapers and the supliers have so far never made a secret out of the fact, that liquids can cause harm when misused.

So what we've got ? Nic, PG, VG and flavours. EU has a few directives ( one of the few things they haven't regulated yet is the hole size in salt shakers but I'm certain they're working hard and fast on that one too ) relating to flavours. What it boils down to us laymen is a long list of substances that are allowed as flavours or to make flavours. Means, that anything listed is allowed, anything that isn't got no business in flavours. Reputable vendors claim that their flavours are in adherence with these EU regulations. Sure, we mostly have to take their word for it, but that is something that can be tested without giving away their trade secrets. After all, a successful flavour composition is worth a lot of money.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Let's be real. E-Juice has child protective caps for a reason and coffee does not. The amount of nicotine we typically vape has been typically within the same concentrations as found in nicotrol inhalers and patches and both of those devices contain clear warnings about safeguarding them from exposing to children. There has been numerous cases of children having extreme nicotine poisoning from ingesting nicotine gum at 4mg and getting in an ingesting patches.

If I drank 10 ml of 12mg/ml juice, I would be ingesting 120 mg of nicotine in one shot which is twice what is considered to be lethal for the average adult.

The method of inhalation and concentration of nicotine in the vapor is what keeps it from being too toxic. Not all the nicotine in the vapor is absorbed by our bodies, and it is absorbed over an extended time frame which allows our bodies to metabolize it. But let's not kid ourselves, in raw form Nic juice can be hazardous and there is reasons that the e-juice containers have child resistant caps.

Also teenagers do STUPID things and I can just see some "genius" daring his buddy to drink a 10 ml bottle of his nic juice and said idiot does so because, well, people vape it so.......how harmful can it be???? That's the LAST thing we need plastered across the news is some idiot drinking is buddy's e-juice on a dare and ending up dead.

Caffeine, on the other hand, requires an adult to drink anywhere between 80 and 100 cups of coffee to get a lethal overdose. 800 oz of liquid is different than 10ml.....OKAY???!!!???

So let's put the whole starbucks vs e-juice argument to bed, shall we. Yes, we vape in low concentrations, but to get those low concentrations we need to vape it from a fairly concentrated source. One that is hazardous and possibly lethal to children if accidentally ingested. Proper storage and control of e-juice is necessary.

Such arguments that equate nicotine and caffeine are as ignorant as the "vapor contains more toxins than smoke" ones used by the ANTZ.

I am 100% against selling nicotine "enhanced" product to minors. Yes it occurs in nature, but again, no one is getting sick of nicotine from potatoes or eggplant.

I'll use the nicotine in eggplant argument against someone who says I'm poisoning them from secondhand vape. But nicotine concentrations in raw liquid e-juice is much higher than what is in an eggplant. As responsible vapers, we need to treat our juices with respect and be extra careful of making sure our juices stay out of the reach of children.

So why is rat poison, isopropyl alcohol, synthetic insecticide, ant and roach killer, and ethylene glycol not more tightly regulated?

These are dangerous substances with low lethal doses. Why are they not prohibited items for sale to minors?



Tapped out

 

[SissySpike]

I propose we Ban all Bans