Why certain regulations and bans make perfect sense

[toddrhodes]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular but, if I'm reading this correctly... it's ok for children under the age of 18 to acquire and use a vaporizer with nicotine of any strength of their own volition, with no restrictions, because someone snuck their dad's lucky strikes when they were 14 and got away with it? Whatever the "benefits" of nicotine may be, or the fact that an adult can safely inhale small amounts of it with no negative side effects, it is still a highly addictive, potentially dangerous substance that should only become a choice once someone is old enough to know why they choose to use it. The debates around here are getting a little out of hand at this point. It seems many here are so anti-regulation that they are failing to see that regulation of some sort is not optional for us down the road. It can't be off the table. We're not just going to here one day from the FDA, "Welp, we put our heads together and realized ya'll aren't crazy, you're doin' fine and we want little Johnny to get a Spinner and an EVOD for his 7th grade graduation now. Also, feel free to blow your clouds in banks, restaurants, movie theaters, libraries, and police stations. Unlimited freedom, you got it! vape on!"

Not all regulation is bad regulation. Items like rat poison, rubbing alcohol, and insecticide are available for purchase as they are not generally ingested by a human being. Of course a kid can walk in and buy it and then go drink it in the parking lot, but how many actually do? Vape juice is just a little bit of a different ballgame than all of those products mentioned because it is *specifically* meant to be ingested via vapor. A kid could also just as easily off himself with the plastic bag he brought everything home in but I'm not out there saying since they have that freedom that means they should be allowed to vape. We can't lose sight of what we're trying to do here. And I don't think the point of ECF is to fight for the rights of kids to vape. If it is...

Oh yea, and I can't wait to be branded "anti vaping" because of my views. Shameful, and it will happen I am sure.

 

[Worzel]

I am just tired of the "authorities" treating us like we are idiots. I, for one, do not have children living in my house! I would assume, anybody who has the sense to switch to vaping, would have the sense to keep their juice away from their kids. What about packs of cigarettes that are left on coffee tables and easily picked up by little kids? Roach baits? Cat litter boxes? The list goes on and on! It boils down to BT, taxman, Big Pharma, smoking fines. Keep the monies comin'!

 

[toddrhodes]

I am just tired of the "authorities" treating us like we are idiots. I, for one, do not have children living in my house! I would assume, anybody who has the sense to switch to vaping, would have the sense to keep their juice away from their kids. What about packs of cigarettes that are left on coffee tables and easily picked up by little kids? Roach baits? Cat litter boxes? The list goes on and on! It boils down to BT, taxman, Big Pharma, smoking fines. Keep the monies comin'!

That's not at issue here. Kids are going to get into stuff, that's unavoidable. Put it where they can't get it like anything else that might be toxic if they drank it or spilled it in their eye sockets. Selling it to minors without regulation? I'm sorry, just no.

 

[EddardinWinter]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular but, if I'm reading this correctly... it's ok for children under the age of 18 to acquire and use a vaporizer with nicotine of any strength of their own volition, with no restrictions, because someone snuck their dad's lucky strikes when they were 14 and got away with it? Whatever the "benefits" of nicotine may be, or the fact that an adult can safely inhale small amounts of it with no negative side effects, it is still a highly addictive, potentially dangerous substance that should only become a choice once someone is old enough to know why they choose to use it. The debates around here are getting a little out of hand at this point. It seems many here are so anti-regulation that they are failing to see that regulation of some sort is not optional for us down the road. It can't be off the table. We're not just going to here one day from the FDA, "Welp, we put our heads together and realized ya'll aren't crazy, you're doin' fine and we want little Johnny to get a Spinner and an EVOD for his 7th grade graduation now. Also, feel free to blow your clouds in banks, restaurants, movie theaters, libraries, and police stations. Unlimited freedom, you got it! Vape on!"

Not all regulation is bad regulation. Items like rat poison, rubbing alcohol, and insecticide are available for purchase as they are not generally ingested by a human being. Of course a kid can walk in and buy it and then go drink it in the parking lot, but how many actually do? Vape juice is just a little bit of a different ballgame than all of those products mentioned because it is *specifically* meant to be ingested via vapor. A kid could also just as easily off himself with the plastic bag he brought everything home in but I'm not out there saying since they have that freedom that means they should be allowed to vape. We can't lose sight of what we're trying to do here. And I don't think the point of ECF is to fight for the rights of kids to vape. If it is...

Oh yea, and I can't wait to be branded "anti vaping" because of my views. Shameful, and it will happen I am sure.

Why don't you wait until after you are called names to play the "aggrieved martyr" card, eh?

How many kids do it?

Lots, apparently.

http://www.kumed.com/medical-services/poison-control/common-poisons/rat-poison





Tapped out

 

[EddardinWinter]

The debates are out of hand, it would seem, because your assumptions are being challenged, Todd.

Why do we debate? To preserve our assumptions on issues?

Nice thread, Jman. I am impressed.



Tapped out

 

[Worzel]

Post #43 toddrhodes, I totally understand. Minors should NOT be able to buy e cigs or juice. But what about minors that smoke coffin nails already? From what I see, gas station and vape shops do a good job of keeping vape supplies and juice out of reach already without the "authorities" telling them to do so.

It just looks to me like the 'gubmint is making a mountain out of a flattened molehill.

 

[SissySpike]

That's not at issue here. Kids are going to get into stuff, that's unavoidable. Put it where they can't get it like anything else that might be toxic if they drank it or spilled it in their eye sockets. Selling it to minors without regulation? I'm sorry, just no.

Not that I disagree but the problem we seem to have with regulation is where dose it stop? I bet you can not spend a year 10 hrs a day 7 days a week and tell me all of the regulations we have and they are writing something like 30,000 per year on top of what we already have.

 

[Erncig]

Here are the restrictions I approve of.... And nothing more...

2. Same advertising restrictions as exist on current tobacco products (no TV, No Radio).

Um what???

 

[Plumes.91]

Oh GOD this thread makes me so angry.

PHYSICAL and MENTAL ADDICTION is what we should be teaching our kids in health class. NOT when they are in freshman year. Freshman kids have NO plans of taking anything other than glaucoma medication and $19.99 wine boxes. Teach about harder substances soph/junior year!

All the kids learn about in health class is that "Z" substance can kill you if you take too much. Z substance can lower your inhabitions and make you lose your grip on your grades and make you make poor choices in life. Kids that are already hanging out with the older kids that are already into taking Z substances don't believe ANY of that. They see the older kids doing JUST FINE taking Z substance. They take on using Z substance as a responsibility. They hang their use high and proud & exclaim that they are using Z substance and still gettings As and Bs and high Cs. (or they don't care about their grades at all, depending on the group)

So we're teaching our kids the WRONG things about substance abuse! We need to be teaching them what physical and mental addiction IS. Not JUST what an OD is and how if you take Z your grades will slip and you'll make poor decisions & you could possibly die if you're not careful. UGH? That is a CHALLENGE!

What about the fact that if you take Z substance you'll eventually need to take a little Z substance just to have enough energy to get out of bed in the morning?? Isn't that a little more scary than "Well, if you can't HANDLE Z substance, and if your not careful with it, you can die" That is a direct CHALLENGE to a smart, rebellious kid, not a deterrent! Come on! The problem with the war on drugs is that we don't even know how properly to deter the newly enlisted "enemies" (our children) from enlisting in the first place!! We think that telling them that they can die is enough. No, its not enough for the war on drugs and its not even enough for stopping our kids from enlisting in the war in the middle east! How about telling newly enlisted soldiers that they could potentially lose both of their legs and live the rest of their lives in a wheel chair as a paraplegic with bad medical benefits? We need to tell our children about ADDICTION!! And not just the sugar coated "Well if you take it and your not careful, you'll want to take more" NO! That ISN'T ADDICTION. ADDICTION is NEEDING to take more to feel NORMAL! Teachers don't even KNOW that!

Our schools need to focus on the LONG TERM effects of taking Z substance, or nicotine, etc... ADDICTION! Our kids don't learn anything about addiction. Avoiding death is a challenge to them! The truth is that nicotine makes you feel like GARBAGE when you don't have it. No energy, you start to feel lethargic and agitated at work without a cigarette for 2-3 hours. No happiness. You feel like an emotionless zombie if you stop smoking for a day... and when you DO have emotion, its anger or irritability or sadness and depression!!! THAT is addiction. Addiction is not being able to get out of bed in the morning until you smoke your first 1 or 2 cigarettes, because you have no energy until you do!!! (amplify that by 1000 for Z addiction!) They don't know HOW to teach about TRUE addiction yet. It's sad. Because I KNOW what kids are thinking in those classes. Looking out the window thinking about how sweet Z makes you feel and how dumb this teacher is for telling everyone they will die if they take Z. Thinking about the 1000s of users you talk to on the internet. Thinking about all your senior friends that take Z and sell you Z and how they do great. But the senior "friends" don't tell the new generation of young little addicts how they need to take Z just to feel NORMAL. They spend half of their paycheck on Z and they can't afford college because of it. No one tells the new addicts that there is a world outside of highschool or college and if you NEED to take a substance worth quadruple its weight in gold just to get out of bed, your going to have a handicap on life that you can't even imagine yet. The same goes for cigarettes that are $10 a day... Any addictive substance.

I just think its ridiculous that we're fighting this war on addictive substances but we don't even know WHY. The teachers that weren't addicts themselves just open a book and read and emphasize the scariest parts of the book. Death and Prison!

 

[Iffy]

I react to flavors....

Don't judge how your vapor effects other people based on your experiences.

Pot meet kettle...

 

[Metroicon]

The way everyone fights on here makes me want to go chain smoke a pack of Marlboros.

 

[Plumes.91]

I signed up to ECF in highschool with my first account. I was probably around 16-17 when I signed up here and I was in every thread saying "I'm a 17 year old that has been smoking since age 14 and now I'm not smoking anymore! I'm vaping and feeling okay!" I was the first one to argue that e-cigarettes could help KIDS that made BAD decisions, get away from smoking tobacco leaves. As I grew older, and past age 18, I started condemning kids on youtube posting trendy videos of them blowing vape rings with their e-cigs. We even had a thread here on ECF where we would post links to youtube videos of kids vaping, and we'd all mass-message the video's poster and ask them to take it down & we'd explain WHY we didn't want videos of underage vapers on youtube. This was years ago now. I have seen things become popular and get banned within half a decade. I've seen a legal, natural substance being used and explained in a featured video on Youtube's front page, and it was on the local news circuit within a week. There are substances that make the national news ONCE and get banned across the country. Is the same going to happen to us... To E-cigarettes? To our JUICE?

What of the kids that are already addicted to smoking tobacco cigarettes? There are THOUSANDS of kids out there under 18 whom have parents that see buying a pack of cigs for their son or daughter a right of passage. A type of bonding. But the parents don't understand E-cigs, they don't understand PVs. They don't understand the gum, or the patch, and they see the gum + patch as way too expensive. They see the APVs and the e-cigs as a $50 or $100 bill down the drain if their kid doesn't like it. So the kids are stuck smoking tobacco cigarettes, screwed if they continue, and thrown into withdrawal if they stop. (if they CAN stop cold turkey)

So you can almost never solve ALL problems with ONE encompassing solution. Does this mean I want to see doctors adopt e-cigs as a way of helping people get off of tobacco products? No. But it also doesn't mean that I don't sympathize with young nicotine addicts.

 

[Traver]

Would a ban on sales to minors include a ban on kids vaping. What if their parents bought it for them?

 

[toddrhodes]

Why don't you wait until after you are called names to play the "aggrieved martyr" card, eh?

How many kids do it?

Lots, apparently.

Rat Poison | The University of Kansas Hospital | Kansas City, KS





Tapped out

Because it's happened several times now and not just to me. I'm seeing it more and more that if one gives even an *ounce* of an indication that maybe vaping isn't perfect and shouldn't be accessible to all in every place, they are suddenly working for the FDA, Pharma, and BT all at the same time. Not from you, mind you, but it is happening far too often lately. I chalk it up to all the anxiety around the EU, NYC, Chicago, the FDA ruling, etc... Maybe it's just Holiday stress, I've no idea, but it's the weight at the end of ECF's ankles right now. There are no perfect endings, there are only compromises.

With that said, minors should be protected by two sets of groups - families and the community around them. I grew up in a smoking household, as did my wife. I had my first cigarette when I was 21. My father asked me if I would like to smoke a cigar on or around my 19th birthday, I declined. I also had the fear of god put into me about what would happen if I touched one before I was of age. On the flip side, my wife started smoking when she was 11 years old. She had no parental guidance whatsoever, in fact she was the closest thing to a parent in the household. Alcoholism and an abusive father saw to that. In the end, one of us had someone there to teach us and one of us had to figure it out on our own. No one can deny that many minors use cigarettes. Several abuse alcohol as well, despite regulations on all of the above to the contrary. And if a young kid is abusing those substances at a young age, I think we need to do what we can as a society to prevent it and when that fails, it's up to the first line of defense - parenting.

Do we really want to risk a situation where a vape store starts targeting young kids with no knowledge or even caring whether they are smoking now or not? Because I firmly believe that will happen. I only have anecdotal evidence to support this, but there is already a sharp rise in minor kids who want to vape because it looks cool/it's the new thing who do not and never had any intention of smoking. So, again, what is the point of vaping? To quit smoking? Or to deliver nicotine in a safer way to anyone who wants to try it? I can't tell anyone that the latter is wrong, but I feel that way in my heart. I am thankful to have vaping as an alternative to a habit that is killing me. That doesn't mean I want to hand it off to a bunch of kids who don't know any better who don't smoke and are looking for a healthier alternative. And since you can't exactly enforce a system where a minor can buy gear if they smoke as a way to get them to quit cigs, you have to take a blanket approach sometimes. I'd really rather not wear my seat belt everywhere I go but I do so for both the safety of it and the fact that if I don't, I'll get a ticket. Of course governments can overregulate but I don't think we should shout down from our soap boxes that we don't need any regulation if the only reason we're doing that is that we fear overregulation. That's just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[toddrhodes]

The debates are out of hand, it would seem, because your assumptions are being challenged, Todd.

Why do we debate? To preserve our assumptions on issues?

Nice thread, Jman. I am impressed.



Tapped out

And lastly, Ed, you're absolutely right about this. This thread does challenge my assumptions and that's not a bad thing. I just needed to take a step back from it to realize it

 

[Amraann]

Yeah, but you're not sitting in a bar constantly taking an air freshener out and spraying a large cloud... I'm sure if that became a trend, they'd consider banning air fresheners. I react to flavors. I know I'm getting a larger volume absorbed, but it doesn't make sense to act like you're not some what violating someone's personal space. People are more resilient and sensitive. Don't judge how your vapor effects other people based on your experiences.

Yes... But I have sat in a bar where other women constantly spray their horrible, migraine causing perfume. In grocery stores and churches too.. both places I would never vape.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Because it's happened several times now and not just to me. I'm seeing it more and more that if one gives even an *ounce* of an indication that maybe vaping isn't perfect and shouldn't be accessible to all in every place, they are suddenly working for the FDA, Pharma, and BT all at the same time. Not from you, mind you, but it is happening far too often lately. I chalk it up to all the anxiety around the EU, NYC, Chicago, the FDA ruling, etc... Maybe it's just Holiday stress, I've no idea, but it's the weight at the end of ECF's ankles right now. There are no perfect endings, there are only compromises.

With that said, minors should be protected by two sets of groups - families and the community around them. I grew up in a smoking household, as did my wife. I had my first cigarette when I was 21. My father asked me if I would like to smoke a cigar on or around my 19th birthday, I declined. I also had the fear of god put into me about what would happen if I touched one before I was of age. On the flip side, my wife started smoking when she was 11 years old. She had no parental guidance whatsoever, in fact she was the closest thing to a parent in the household. Alcoholism and an abusive father saw to that. In the end, one of us had someone there to teach us and one of us had to figure it out on our own. No one can deny that many minors use cigarettes. Several abuse alcohol as well, despite regulations on all of the above to the contrary. And if a young kid is abusing those substances at a young age, I think we need to do what we can as a society to prevent it and when that fails, it's up to the first line of defense - parenting.

Do we really want to risk a situation where a vape store starts targeting young kids with no knowledge or even caring whether they are smoking now or not? Because I firmly believe that will happen. I only have anecdotal evidence to support this, but there is already a sharp rise in minor kids who want to vape because it looks cool/it's the new thing who do not and never had any intention of smoking. So, again, what is the point of vaping? To quit smoking? Or to deliver nicotine in a safer way to anyone who wants to try it? I can't tell anyone that the latter is wrong, but I feel that way in my heart. I am thankful to have vaping as an alternative to a habit that is killing me. That doesn't mean I want to hand it off to a bunch of kids who don't know any better who don't smoke and are looking for a healthier alternative. And since you can't exactly enforce a system where a minor can buy gear if they smoke as a way to get them to quit cigs, you have to take a blanket approach sometimes. I'd really rather not wear my seat belt everywhere I go but I do so for both the safety of it and the fact that if I don't, I'll get a ticket. Of course governments can overregulate but I don't think we should shout down from our soap boxes that we don't need any regulation if the only reason we're doing that is that we fear overregulation. That's just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't deny that you have been shouted at, treated rudely, etc. I am sorry if that has happened. Here's the thing...you and I can control how we communicate here, today.

That stuff before that has happened to you and me on this forum, it's just a story. As soon as you realize that, and I realize that, it no longer has power over us.

My personal view is that cigarettes are killing people, and anything that restricts any persons access to vaping is potentially taking away something that could save a smokers life. You don't see it quite the same way. That's okay.

But we can both still be good guys, right?



Tapped out

 

[Amraann]

Actually they (bans) don't make sense, and I'm strongly opposed to them, but would like to see what others think about this logic.

If reason for not vaping in public is, according to non-vapers, that it looks like smoking.
And certain vapers agree with this, that it does look like smoking and therefore should only be done where smoking is allowed.
Then wouldn't it make (equal) sense that only tobacco and menthol flavors ought to be vaped, especially in places where smoking is allowed?
For, if smoker sees that we (vapers) get to 'smoke' our flavors, but they don't get to with their product, that could be seen as blatantly disrespectful.
And since it is often brought up on vaping forums that no one wants to smell your (insert wonderful tasting vapor) flavor, then this would resolve that.

Plus, we are up against people who think only reason for flavors (other than tobacco and menthol) is to entice children into addiction to vaping/nicotine. Therefore, if thinking (ahem) logically and (cough) respectfully about these issues, vapers ought to not encourage other vapers to purchase these other flavors, even for own private use. Cause, you know, the kids and stuff.
To make this point clearer, unless you are perfectly okay and willing to contact congress people for idea that smokers ought to be afforded whatever flavors are desired to enhance a traditional cigarette, then it is patently unfair to say vapers get to have this because adults can enjoy these flavors as well, while okay that smokers can't have them because children could be enticed into addiction to smoking.

Sorry for the gaping holes in this logic as I have a tough time writing about the position that wishes to ban / restrict anything when it comes to vaping. Just hoping those (ahem) respectful types that would never ever vape where you can't smoke can follow where their argument(s) are inevitably leading the vaping community.

And so, curious what others in vaping community think about this reasoning?

I have no problem with bans selling e-cigs to those under 18. Just like bans on selling alcohol or analogs.
It (IMO) helps give the impression that vaping is for adults.

I do not think that vaping should only be restricted to the "smokers" corner.
But it does not make equal sense to me that vapers should only vape tobacco or menthol flavors. Cigars and pipe tobaccos have many varieties of flavors.. So why should vapors be limited?
I cannot see a smoker thinking that we vapors are being disrespectful because we have flavors. They have the option to vape if they wish.

 

[Worzel]

What I find disturbing are all these calls to action. If they want to ban sales to minors. That's fine. But I know that it will go way further than that. Then it will be flavors, online sales, PV's, public bans, than bans altogether with fines. IMO, the general public should be happy we found an alternative to smoking. All these years of the "Smoking Stinks" talk, graphic ads against smoking, and for what? People still smoke cigarettes! Even at $10 a pack! Minors still smoke too! People know what emphysema is. People know what COPD (a new disease) is, yet people still smoke. But there are also people who get lung cancer and heart disease who don't smoke. I know a woman who has cirrhosis of the liver, and she can count on one hand how many times she has been drunk. My Grandpa had 3 open heart surgeries, and he smoked one cigarette a day for 10 years. It is called genetics, and this filthy, polluted world we live in doesn't help either! We are not built to live forever. We rot like fruit. And if I want to enjoy vaping while I rot, without stinking up the air around me, so be it! I am an adult, that is my choice!

 

[Plumes.91]

The problem is there are large lobbyist groups that are paid money and given donations to fight anything that contains nicotine. They fight smoking and they fight vaping now too. Even if vaping IS healthier than smoking (who could possibly argue that it is not healthier?) if there are more donations from people that believe that vaping IS smoking, then the American Lung & Heart Association is going to lobby against e-cigarettes and vaping. If ignorance is the majority, Ignorance wins the majority vote every time.