Why certain regulations and bans make perfect sense

[p.opus]

So why is rat poison, isopropyl alcohol, synthetic insecticide, ant and roach killer, and ethylene glycol not more tightly regulated?

These are dangerous substances with low lethal doses. Why are they not prohibited items for sale to minors?



Tapped out

I think you missed the point of my argument.

What I was trying to state is that it is ludicrous and irresponsible when a vaper comes up and tries to make an apples to apples comparison between caffeine and nicotine.

They are not even in the same ball park.

That was my point. Nicotine should be treated with respect.

We don't tell people that a spoon full of rat poison is equivalent to a cup of coffee. We don't tell someone that a shot of ant and roach killer is the "as dangerous" as a double tall mocha cappuccino.

Rat poison does not have labels that say....Strawberry Shortcake, Apple Pie, or Smore's on them.

Yet I have heard people compare vaping directly to drinking a cup of coffee.

The lethal dose of nicotine is significantly lower than caffeine and it is VERY difficult for anyone to get a lethal dose. Yet we have people on this very board that start chain vaping 24mg or 36mg juice and report feeling bad and we tell them they are getting nic sick.

I do not believe in banning flavor's. I don't believe in banning e-juice, but I do believe that the sell of nicotine containing e-liquid should not be sold to minors. I believe that vaping gear should not be sold to minors.

When I was growing up, I used to be able to buy candy cigarettes and bubblegum wrapped to look like a cig. I could even smoke it by blowing the powdered sugar on the gum. No one I know, would tell me that banning candy cigs and bubblegum was a bad idea.

We won't be able to stop teen vaping, just as we can't stop teen smoking. Kids if they want it bad enough will get it. However, we don't need to put out the welcome mat at our vape stores either.

So far the e-cig community has been fairly responsible at stating that their products are for use by adults over 18 only. However, there should be more age verification both at our B&M's and our online markets.

 

[Racehorse]

Just hoping those (ahem) respectful types that would never ever vape where you can't smoke can follow where their argument(s) are inevitably leading the vaping community.

And so, curious what others in vaping community think about this reasoning?

Any reasoning that includes *blaming other vapers* is not acceptable to me, and shouldn't even be on the table in this community.

Please try to come up with some other "scapegoating du juor" if you need to indulge your frustrations. Perhpas you will discover a more useful and effective path forward.

We are all individuals here, who vape. And none of us needs "instructions", nor do we owe you or any other forum member "an explanation" of what conventions we choose to observe in our very individual and unique circumstances, whether that be our workplace, our homes, our communities, or among friends and neighbors.

And your little coughs and ahems are rather disingenuous, by the way. Try not to be so transparent when you're judging others.

 

[DC2]

I tried to find something on caffeine but was unable to. I would welcome a cite or site.

It is easily argued that caffeine overdose is responsible for more deaths than nicotine overdose...
When caffeine kills: Energy drinks under the spotlight - NBC News.com

 

[Jman8]

Any reasoning that includes *blaming other vapers* is not acceptable to me, and shouldn't even be on the table in this community.

Generally agree, but does sometimes depend.

Please try to come up with some other "scapegoating du juor" if you need to indulge your frustrations. Perhpas you will discover a more useful and effective path forward.

I usually do, on many other threads.

We are all individuals here, who vape. And none of us needs "instructions", nor do we owe you or any other forum member "an explanation" of what conventions we choose to observe in our very individual and unique circumstances, whether that be our workplace, our homes, our communities, or among friends and neighbors.

Agreed. Was being rhetorical in OP and observing logic of 'don't vape where you can't smoke' will lead the community, especially if we were to stay consistent with that.

 

[DC2]

With that said, minors should be protected by two sets of groups - families and the community around them.

You left out the government.

 

[Jman8]

Regarding the topic of regulating sales to kids, I am one that favors kids being able to vape, but not as a blanket suggestion, nor something to be encouraged and especially, in today's age, not to be marketed towards.

I can go along with regulation whereby kids are not allowed to purchase eCig products, but feel same persons (kids) ought to not be punished for using.

Plus decriminalizing use by youngsters keeps things in perspective from within vaping community. If sales are forbidden, while use deemed permissible - then technically everyone but ANTZ types ought to be okay with this.

I don't buy the harmful to kids claims. I'm thinking most persons on this forum started with nicotine under the age of 18, and are alive and well many years later. For vast majority, that's with smoking. As vaping is considered by almost all to be far less dangerous, I do not see the harm being anything but minimal. And plausibly being life saving if said minor is already addicted to smoking. IMO, it becomes a no brainer at that point. Cold turkey would be ideal choice (in my book), but vaping would be suitable alternative.

I do buy the potential for addiction, though do feel that is up to each individual and own journey. In my experience, I am thoroughly convinced that smoking wasn't a gateway to other things I chose to get into, it was the denial and deception that was the gateway. It was truly a situation when trying one thing and finding out 'they' lied which led me wonder what else they may have lied about. Turns out, it was almost everything. I think if kids were presented with the honest pros and honest cons, they'd stand a far better chance of making determination going forward. Instead pros are always downplayed or mocked, if not altogether ignored, while cons are hyped up and presented in way that equals deception once a person does try and even makes it a habit.

That nicotine is addictive is debatable. That the experience of ingesting nicotine, while peers do it, and while (adult) society exercises mass deception with high degree of hypocrisy makes the use of nicotine compelling, if not habit forming.

 

[Racehorse]

Generally agree, but does sometimes depend.

Hey, you are entitled to your opinion, of course.

I just think that it is best not to dilute the "strength of community" because we all vape. That is really the important thing, that we are all involved in the same pursuit.

It is arguable whether being less offending to others, or more out in the open "loud and proud" will have the intended effect, I mean, I just don't think we can prove that outcome in any meaningful way, do you?

My dislike of ANTZ is that they nag, badger, and hound, are persistently critical, and like to tell others what to do and how to do it.

I certainly do not want to encounter the same personality types within my own vaping community............

 

[Jman8]

It is arguable whether being less offending to others, or more out in the open "loud and proud" will have the intended effect, I mean, I just don't think we can prove that outcome in any meaningful way, do you?

My dislike of ANTZ is that they nag, badger, and hound, are persistently critical, and like to tell others what to do and how to do it.

I certainly do not want to encounter the same personality types within my own vaping community............

'Loud and proud' seems like spin to me. I reference that position as respectful and exercising common sense to openly vape. If spinning the other side of the coin in way that is less than favorable, I could go with meek and capitulating. As I recognize that to be unfair, I would just ask that the openly vape advocates not be (continually) referenced in way that clearly equates to obnoxiousness and disrespectful.

I think if the non-vapers living on this planet are educated about vaping, it'll partially be from vapers who have chosen to set an example by openly vaping in public. I don't expect all non-vapers to have positive feelings about vaping regardless of how wonderfully respectful vapers are in public. Yet, if we are restricting ourselves to regions that are designated for 'smokers only' I would think a non-vaper would reason that even vapers know that what they are up to is essentially smoking a cigarette.

 

[meanckz]

Here are the restrictions I approve of.... And nothing more...

1. Ban on selling nicotine containing e-juice to minors
2. Same advertising restrictions as exist on current tobacco products (no TV, No Radio).
3. Verification of e-juice ingredients including regular testing to ensure nicotine content verification.
4. Inspection of ejuice product and or ejuice manufacturing to ensure product is free from contamination. These regulations should be on par with current restrictions that exist on current foodstuff flavoring.
5. E-Cig hardware should be regulated only to meet current industry standards and quality for existing like components.

Other than that there should be no further restriction on the sale or use of these products unless studies are found which conclusively prove that vaping presents a significant health hazard to the user or surrounding individuals.

Government entities should establish their own guidelines to vaping on government owned propery. Vaping regulations on private property or in privately owned businesses must be regulated by the property owner/business owner themselves.

This is making sooooo much sense!!! Thank you.

 

[meanckz]

.... or chocolate mint.

off topic: your dogs nose looks like a kitten

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Let's be real. E-Juice has child protective caps for a reason and coffee does not. ......

Caffeine, on the other hand, requires an adult to drink anywhere between 80 and 100 cups of coffee to get a lethal overdose. 800 oz of liquid is different than 10ml.....OKAY???!!!???

So let's put the whole starbucks vs e-juice argument to bed, shall we. Yes, we vape in low concentrations, but to get those low concentrations we need to vape it from a fairly concentrated source. One that is hazardous and possibly lethal to children if accidentally ingested. Proper storage and control of e-juice is necessary.

Apparently in this thread everything is black and white. So, yes, let's get real. In 15 years of smoking, I have NEVER sensed or felt an accidental overdose on nicotine. However, I cant count the number of times I've overdosed on caffeine hanging out at coffee shops in the same period.

Child protective caps will NOT prevent a 10 year old from opening them, so don't delude yourself into thinking the teenagers I was talking about and referring to would have any issues.

Am I for advertising and openly encouraging kids to vape? NO! However, do I think that a retailer should face a $10,000 fine and/or 6 months in jail for doing so? Hell no! How about a kid having to go to court and pay fines/do community service for possession and having a record preventing them from being active and productive in society? Again, NO!

The product is just that, it's vaping. Education, awareness and responsibility should be the name of the game; used correctly vaping and drinking that doubleshot grande frappacccino provide similar effects of stimulants - which after all is the sought after effect. And as for addiction; caffeine is perhaps the most socially acceptable and most addictive drug we have available in society.

Making assumptions and dreaming up rules and regulations based on assuming that people have an IQ of ambient temperature at the North Pole isnt going to benefit anyone and only works to frustrate the efforts of those that understand how to read labels and understand that products should be used a certain intended way.

Besides: in the US kids cant drink until they're 21 - what about other parts of the world that allow kids to drink at 16? Kids are more capable of rationalization and are capable of responsibility for themselves - if it's given to them.

BTW: LD50 of caffeine is 140-160mg/kg - An 8 oz cup of coffee is approximately 140mg of caffeine. A 2oz shot of espresso is also approximately 140mg of caffine. While not lethal in it's diluted state in water; a handful of coffee beans eaten by a toddler will have you rushing to the ER.

<edit> and apples to apples, coffee isnt the only source of caffine: Amazon.com: 500G 1.1 Lbs. Caffeine Powder 100% USP Pharma Grade Pure Powder Foil Sealed for freshness. Ultra Pure Powder.: Health & Personal Care Pretty sure that's enough caffine to kill a small town, $15 on Amazon. good deal. No protective caps, no regulation, again, poison but pleasurable, tasty, stimulant if used correctly and correct dosage</edit>

The original comment was the fact that I disagree with the regulation in general.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I think you missed the point of my argument.

What I was trying to state is that it is ludicrous and irresponsible when a vaper comes up and tries to make an apples to apples comparison between caffeine and nicotine.

They are not even in the same ball park.

That was my point. Nicotine should be treated with respect.

We don't tell people that a spoon full of rat poison is equivalent to a cup of coffee. We don't tell someone that a shot of ant and roach killer is the "as dangerous" as a double tall mocha cappuccino.

Rat poison does not have labels that say....Strawberry Shortcake, Apple Pie, or Smore's on them.

Yet I have heard people compare vaping directly to drinking a cup of coffee.

The lethal dose of nicotine is significantly lower than caffeine and it is VERY difficult for anyone to get a lethal dose. Yet we have people on this very board that start chain vaping 24mg or 36mg juice and report feeling bad and we tell them they are getting nic sick.

I do not believe in banning flavor's. I don't believe in banning e-juice, but I do believe that the sell of nicotine containing e-liquid should not be sold to minors. I believe that vaping gear should not be sold to minors.

When I was growing up, I used to be able to buy candy cigarettes and bubblegum wrapped to look like a cig. I could even smoke it by blowing the powdered sugar on the gum. No one I know, would tell me that banning candy cigs and bubblegum was a bad idea.

We won't be able to stop teen vaping, just as we can't stop teen smoking. Kids if they want it bad enough will get it. However, we don't need to put out the welcome mat at our vape stores either.

So far the e-cig community has been fairly responsible at stating that their products are for use by adults over 18 only. However, there should be more age verification both at our B&M's and our online markets.

Well, you stated the toxicity of the substance dictated regulation. Apparently, only sometimes.

I guess I am ludicrous and irresponsible, because you say so.

Amazing to me, but the people who decry the rabid tone of those labelled "loud and proud" never notice the language of the pro-regulation arguments...

I guess we deserve less respect because of our views.



Tapped out

 

[toddrhodes]

You left out the government.

DC2, I didn't name them specifically but I tend to lean towards "community" being comprised of both the people in the community and those that govern said community. But you're right, no disagreement there.

Unless you were being sarcastic, then I do disagree

 

[EddardinWinter]

DC2, I didn't name them specifically but I tend to lean towards "community" being comprised of both the people in the community and those that govern said community. But you're right, no disagreement there.

Unless you were being sarcastic, then I do disagree

With DC, you cannot rule out sarcasm. But I think he was playing this one straight.



Tapped out

 

[soba1]

This might offend some but how about we ban the value menu and super sized meals fast food.
Cause I just can stand to look at grossly obese, people.
How about we limit the proof in alcohol cause drunk people are stupid, and some get
in the car and drive and kill people.
How about we make pregnant women wear loose clothing cause
I really don't wanna see baby bumps.
How about we ban the Kardashians, because all they teach young girls is that
you don't have to have brains and talent. All you need to do
is look hot try to have sex with the highest bidder and post it on youtube
and you got it made.
How about we outlaw cologne and perfumes cause some smell
too hideous.
..........................................................................

 

[MikeZ28]

Give it a few more years. The nanny state is still in its infancy but growing.

 

[bluecat]

It is easily argued that caffeine overdose is responsible for more deaths than nicotine overdose...
When caffeine kills: Energy drinks under the spotlight - NBC News.com

Correct but that is because one of the reason getting ridiculously drunk (which I have been in my younger years after chugging pitchers of beer with friends trying to see who could piss further up the wall) that one would pass out before od'ing on alcohol. These energy drinks keep them awake so that "safety" feature is gone.

My whole point was nicotine is not = to caffeine as far as safety is concerned. Can you minimize risk, of course one can. Many poisons are handled safely every minute of the day. While I was growing up my grandfather would keep his poison (he was a farmer among other things) in a mason jar with the skull and cross bones written on it right next to grandma's homemade jelly. Education is key.

 

[bluecat]

So is caffine.

Please show me a link on caffeine being used as a pesticide.

Some Pesticides Permitted in Organic Gardening

"Nicotine is extracted from tobacco or related Nicotiana species and is one of the oldest botanical insecticides in use today. It's also one of the most toxic to warm-blooded animals and it's readily absorbed through the skin. (Wear gloves when applying it, follow label directions and keep pets away from application areas.) It breaks down quickly, however, so it is legally acceptable to use on organically grown crops."

 

[Robino1]

The body will vomit out the nic if it gets too much. Nic sick is exactly that......sick. Not death. One reported case of a child dying (damn I wish I had that link ) but the child had also gotten into a drug (really wish I had that link ) which basically didn't let its body do what it should've done.

I'm not advocating not having child safety caps nor am I going the other way. I'm just saying get the facts.

Personally, I think we should have a choice. I do not need child safety caps. I have no children in my house.
I can also see both sides of the issue in regards to minors vaping. As I sit here and think about my grandkids, would I rather see them vape instead of smoke? Yes. In a perfect world, they would not do either.

As an aside, nic is being shown to have positive affects on ADHD and Alzheimer's, among other maladies.

Another fallacy that is still out there, second hand smoke is not quite the demon that it is being portrayed. It certainly is not a good thing, but certainly not as bad as what the ANTZ want you to believe. It was one of their first successful lies to get people scared. Not long ago they tried to start a third hand smoke scare. You know....the one where since you can smell the smoke on people then the carcinogens must rub off when you touch the person. Um yeah....more lies. Their whole campaign is all about getting nicotine demonized. It doesn't matter if what they put out there is truthful or not.

 

[bluecat]

Nicotine is a poison, but not at the level you are pretending.

Highly concentrated nic could kill, but I bet you can't find any recent examples of that happening.

Most of the examples of nicotine poisoning you will find are from people working in tobacco fields, where the long term exposure can add up. And they result in sickness, not in death.

If you're going to start talking about "Children Are Dying OMG!" then I'm going to ask you to name one. Just one. If you can't name a single kid that's died from this, then you are just making stuff up to complain about.

My post was in reference to nicotine being as safe as caffeine. I wasn't complaining. I was entering in a discussion which I guess I am not allowed to do. I guess I will just roll over and agree with everything you state.

Feel free to play ostrich.

The first one is not substantiated. I wouldn't risk it though with my kids, but feel to allow yours to play with your nic bottles.

A case of nicotine poisoning from e-liquid (?)

http://ffn.yuku.com/topic/24025#.UrBo-OJ0nEo

http://metro.co.uk/2011/12/07/patie...ers-as-hot-bath-causes-fatal-overdose-247509/