Your thoughts on kids who vape, but have never smoked an analog before?

[dr g]

Caffeine is a stimulant but it's not illegal to sell to kids ... just sayin'
I get it that the optics are bad right now because of the stigma of smoking ... but so far research has shown not all that much problem with nicotine per se.

 

[Ryedan]

I never let my kids know I smoked until they were in their late teens and then I started vaping soon after. By the time I had been vaping for 3 years, they were both over 18 and started smoking. Me -Miss "vaping advocate" - had 2 sons start SMOKING when they knew all about vaping. (Both had bar/restaurant jobs, where a LOT of staff smoke.) Thankfully, about a year later they started vaping instead. Now in their early 20's, they say more and more of their friends vape. One of my sons actually started vaping because his roommate started first.

I find it very hard to believe that kids who started vaping without ever having smoked, wouldn't be smoking now if e-cigarettes had never been invented. With all of the fuss ANTZ are making over e-cigarettes and flavors, it's no wonder kids want to try them. Had e-cigarettes been left alone and only described as "healthier options for smokers" I doubt most kids would even find them very intriguing. "Healthier option to "cool" smoking for old people? BORING! GEEKY!" But now ANTZ have made them cool for the daring.

But because we know the health risks are very low, we can expect young adults to try them just as they would other things intended for adults - coffee, alcohol, tobacco, etc. If we believe that vaping truly isn't anymore of a health risk than caffeine, alcohol, sugar and fat (all things we should avoid) then how do we condemn a young adult from starting vaping anymore than doing those other things that "aren't necessarily good for you but are unlikely to kill you?" No, I wouldn't tell a non-smoking person "Try these you'll like them" anymore than I would encourage a person to drink caffeine. But I'm certainly not going to be surprised or judgmental should they decide for themselves that they want to do it. I don't vape just for a safer alternative. I vape because I enjoyed smoking and now I enjoy vaping. If vaping was available back when I started smoking, I'm almost certain I would have tried it, too. Who am I to decide that someone else can't have that same reason?

(This is all my personal opinion and feelings. I am not speaking for CASAA policy on youth vaping here.)

Thank you kristin. IMO this is right on the mark on all counts

 

[Ken_A]

?.. nicotine is highly addictive ...

I'm not going to pick on the person who posted this little gem, because I have seen it posted too many times by too many otherwise intelligent people.

However, if you want me to buy into this kind of information, you had better back it up with verifiable fact.
All studies done on nicotine away from tobacco that I have seen mark nicotine equaly addictive with caffeine....

Nicotine is [not] highly addictive. It has never been proven to cause or increase any negative conditions other than being a vascular constrictor. That means your blood pressure will go up for about 20 minutes. That's it.

If you can provide a link to any study done in the past 2 years that refute that statement, I would appreciate it.

 

[Ryedan]

I can tell you all first hand being that I'm just out of highschool that the number of kids that vape is enormous, most of them were not smokers before and are not vaping zero nic juice. They all do it at school and out of school just because they like the "buzz" and or think its the new cool thing to do, I personally find it absolutely stupid since nicotine is highly addictive and they just arnt thinking before they start. I'm not going to say I'd prefer them to smoke analogs by any means but I'm seeing kids that arnt even 16 vaping all the time and it saddens me that this has become the new cool thing, I guess it's better vaping is the new trend rather than cigs, I just wish they used it for its purpose instead of because its cool, for me it has worked wonders and I havnt smoked a cig in months and would hope that kids realize it's not a toy it's a tool.

Thanks for sharing this Dan. It's good to get accurate info from someone who is close to that scene. And congrats on getting off of smoking.

 

[Thunderball]

Its a better trend than picking up a pack of smokes............. which is what most of us did as a kid

 

[Ryedan]

You are basically suggesting that people should try smoking before they try vaping?

Honestly, there is ZERO evidence that vaping could lead to smoking. Why would someone go from a pleasant-tasting, safe vapor to harsh-tasting smoke that could kill them? Even a LOT of smokers say that vaping makes cigarette smoke taste unpalatable to them. It did for me and I REALLY enjoyed smoking. It's like saying drinking wine coolers leads to drinking straight 151 or drinking orange soda with caffeine leads to drinking black espresso.

There is also little evidence that nicotine in e-liquid is anymore addictive than it is in nicotine patches. We already know from vapers that nicotine isn't the only reason people smoke. It may not even be the main reason for a lot of people.

I could only like this once, but I tried. I now need a new mouse ... it gave up after all the clicking I just did.

 

[ElectricalSocket]

"I personally find it absolutely stupid since nicotine is highly addictive"

Please don't say that or believe it. Every time I hear it, I'm gunna have to start spamming studies that *PROVE* nicotine is NOT highly addictive. We've got to bury that myth once and for all.

I don't always trust the scientific community, but when I do, I spam Journal of Neuroscience studies.

Stay thirsty my dehydrated friends.

 

[ElectricalSocket]

Oh and please don't make me start ranting about stimulants. Adderall is an over-prescribed stimulant with much worse long-term effects than caffeine or nicotine. It's basically me+h, and pediatricians will gladly hand it out if little timmy can't focus. You know why little timmy can't focus? Watching tv and movies has altered his brainwaves to stay in vegetable mode.

Televison Zombie Apocalypse

 

[Keitaro]

I'm not going to pick on the person who posted this little gem, because I have seen it posted too many times by too many otherwise intelligent people.

However, if you want me to buy into this kind of information, you had better back it up with verifiable fact.
All studies done on nicotine away from tobacco that I have seen mark nicotine equaly addictive with caffeine....

Nicotine is [not] highly addictive. It has never been proven to cause or increase any negative conditions other than being a vascular constrictor. That means your blood pressure will go up for about 20 minutes. That's it.

If you can provide a link to any study done in the past 2 years that refute that statement, I would appreciate it.

All I can go by is from my personal experiences. You can find studies after studies on the same topic that say different things and refute eachother. It doesn't make any of them right. The point is...I quit smoking, I use a PV now and I am still *highly* addicted to nicotine. If I didn't vape then I would go back to cigs because that is the only way I can get my nicotine fix. I don't crave for anything else...I don't even want a cig because I get my nicotine fix from my PV. But I wouldn't really say it's equally addicting as caffeine. I can quit drinking pop easily and have done so a lot of times and I hardly drink it now. With nicotine that is nearly impossible for me to do. It also effects your dopamine levels and can effect other things like depression if you do not have it. Not just your blood pressure. This is all from MY experiences. It is highly addicting to ME. Some people can quit smoking cigs cold turkey. Others cannot...If nicotine wasn't highly addictive then I would be able to quit easily like I can with caffeine. But so far, that hasn't been the case...Not for me anyway. If it wasn't then most of us wouldn't even be vaping. A study isn't going to tell me what I experience. Only what others have which can vary depending on the person.

 

[ElectricalSocket]

Of course that's the case, you're still basically detoxing. I would assume if cigarette addiction is anything like other hard drugs, it'll take at least a year for your brain to get back to "normal" (as normal as it can get). Most likely 18 months is a better number. After 2 years of vaping though, it's 100% the psychological addiction that would be hardest to break and it's 100% comparable to a coffee addiction. Anyone that has vaped for 2+ years should be able to quit (if they wanted to) and jones for a few days max if they jones at all. Kinda like the member who accidently was vaping 0nic and didn't realize it.

Why do some people not want to go lower than 6mg? Throat hit. That's psychological addiction. If any of those people thought they were using 6mg nic juice but it was actually 0mg, most would have no clue (again, if TH didn't give it away).

Not even trying to be arrogant, I have less 'clean time' (lol) than you. Just stating facts. None of the studies contradict each other that I have seen.

On another note, keep your dopamine levels up. Bananas and almonds (among other things) have tyrosine which converts to dopamine. I mix up some almond butter with vanilla yogurt, add some cinnamon and honey = AMAZING. Vanilla almond milk is pretty good too. Adderall abuse for 10+ years has jacked up my brain, but I'm feeling pretty good with all the tyrosine. Might be more psychological than anything, but that doesn't even matter.

Placebo=Thoughts physically affecting our body/brain. Kind of crazy if you think about it.

 

[DC2]

All I can go by is from my personal experiences. You can find studies after studies on the same topic that say different things and refute eachother. It doesn't make any of them right. The point is...I quit smoking, I use a PV now and I am still *highly* addicted to nicotine. If I didn't vape then I would go back to cigs because that is the only way I can get my nicotine fix. I don't crave for anything else...I don't even want a cig because I get my nicotine fix from my PV. But I wouldn't really say it's equally addicting as caffeine. I can quit drinking pop easily and have done so a lot of times and I hardly drink it now. With nicotine that is nearly impossible for me to do. It also effects your dopamine levels and can effect other things like depression if you do not have it. Not just your blood pressure. This is all from MY experiences. It is highly addicting to ME. Some people can quit smoking cigs cold turkey. Others cannot...If nicotine wasn't highly addictive then I would be able to quit easily like I can with caffeine. But so far, that hasn't been the case...Not for me anyway.

All you can go by is your personal experiences?
How long have you been vaping?

 

[Keitaro]

All you can go by is your personal experiences?
How long have you been vaping?

My point is nicotine effects people differently. It can be highly addicted for some and not for others. I don't think any study is going to take that into account. If most of us could have stopped the nicotine addiction as easily as some say it is then we wouldn't need a crutch such as vaping.

 

[DC2]

My point is nicotine effects people differently. It can be highly addicted for some and not for others.

I can agree with that.

If most of us could have stopped the nicotine addiction as easily as some say it is then we wouldn't need a crutch such as vaping.

You say nicotine addiction, but what you're really talking about is the addiction to smoking.
It seems to me that those two things are far more different than you realize.

 

[Keitaro]

I can agree with that.


You say nicotine addiction, but what you're really talking about is the addiction to smoking.
It seems to me that those two things are far more different than you realize.

No, I'm talking specifically about nicotine. I've given up smoking and it doesn't bother me one bit. I don't even think about it anymore honestly. But if I don't have nicotine in my system? It's a totally different story. Vaping helps with that and gives me the fix I need. That sir, is being addicted. When you feel like you need it...Then that is an addiction. And yeah, vaping *simulates* the act of smoking. That does play a huge part in it too and the throat hit and etc. But the nicotine is what I actually crave lol.

 

[Baditude]

If I might add my perspective to what Keitaro and DC are discussing...

Yes, we are all addicted to nicotine the drug. However, I believe we are also addicted to the "act" of smoking, too.

Nicotine patches and gum both supply nicotine to our brain receptors, yet those two delivery devices have a terrible failure rate to keep people from staying off cigarettes.

When using the patch and you get a severe craving for a cigarette, rubbing the patch will not supply a burst of additional nicotine to your brain - it's not designed to work that way. It provides a controlled, sustained level of nicotine over a long period of time.

When using the gum or lozenges and you get a severe craving, you can pop an extra one into your mouth for more nicotine at once, yet you are likely going to get more side effects doing that (nausea, upset stomach, hiccups).

When vaping and you get a craving, you can increase your vape frequency with minimal side effects, and the resulting larger dose of nicotine absorbed likely can over-ride that craving desire.

Vaping replaces the hand-to-mouth ritual that is a major part of the cigarette addiction - the patch and gum do not.

Vapor simulates cigarette smoke with heated vapor and provides that difficult to describe satisfaction in your lungs - the patch and gum can't do that.

For these reasons I believe vaping is a better alternative to quit smoking than the other former nicotine alternatives.

 

[Fizzpop]

If I might add my perspective to what Keitaro and DC are discussing...

Yes, we are all addicted to nicotine the drug. However, I believe we are also addicted to the "act" of smoking, too.

Nicotine patches and gum both supply nicotine to our brain receptors, yet those two delivery devices have a terrible failure rate to keep people from staying off cigarettes.

When using the patch and you get a severe craving for a cigarette, rubbing the patch will not supply a burst of additional nicotine to your brain - it's not designed to work that way. It provides a controlled, sustained level of nicotine over a long period of time.

When using the gum or lozenges and you get a severe craving, you can pop an extra one into your mouth for more nicotine at once, yet you are likely going to get more side effects doing that (nausea, upset stomach, hiccups).

When vaping and you get a craving, you can increase your vape frequency with minimal side effects, and the resulting larger dose of nicotine absorbed likely can over-ride that craving desire.

Vaping replaces the hand-to-mouth ritual that is a major part of the cigarette addiction - the patch and gum do not.

Vapor simulates cigarette smoke with heated vapor and provides that difficult to describe satisfaction in your lungs - the patch and gum can't do that.

For these reasons I believe vaping is a better alternative to quit smoking than the other former nicotine alternatives.

+1 to this.

I actually found the gum worked for me for the most part, but could never ween myself off it. Before I discovered vaping, I seriously considered long term replacement therapy using just gum, but the gum is more expensive than cigarettes! The other problem was the need to "have a smoke" in response to stress, the gum would work fairly well when things were calm, but forget it if the stress was elevated. So the gum kind of worked for me...

My wife, however, was a totally different story. Gum wasn't even an option. She hated it. For her smoking was as much about the act of smoking than the nicotine fix. She would smoke as a "reward" in between tasks; having the cigarette in her mouth and just blowing smoke was as much of the addiction as the nicotine. Needless to say, she loves vaping.

I agree people are successful with vaping because it hits all the right notes: we get the nicotine, the oral satisfaction, and the psychological pleasure of inhaling and blowing smoke.

 

[hazarada]

Yet if your cousin pulled out a real cig you'd probably try and sell him on e-cigs. All of us know firsthand how much addictions suck, yet for me nicotine has also been a real pal for me during stressful times. His body, his decision, just be happy it wasn't the regular death stick.

 

[Ken_A]

+1 to this.

I actually found the gum worked for me for the most part, but could never ween myself off it. Before I discovered vaping, I seriously considered long term replacement therapy using just gum, but the gum is more expensive than cigarettes! The other problem was the need to "have a smoke" in response to stress, the gum would work fairly well when things were calm, but forget it if the stress was elevated. So the gum kind of worked for me...

My wife, however, was a totally different story. Gum wasn't even an option. She hated it. For her smoking was as much about the act of smoking than the nicotine fix. She would smoke as a "reward" in between tasks; having the cigarette in her mouth and just blowing smoke was as much of the addiction as the nicotine. Needless to say, she loves vaping.

I agree people are successful with vaping because it hits all the right notes: we get the nicotine, the oral satisfaction, and the psychological pleasure of inhaling and blowing vapor.

Fixed that for ya!

 

[zoiDman]

"I personally find it absolutely stupid since nicotine is highly addictive"

Please don't say that or believe it. Every time I hear it, I'm gunna have to start spamming studies that *PROVE* nicotine is NOT highly addictive. We've got to bury that myth once and for all.

I don't always trust the scientific community, but when I do, I spam Journal of Neuroscience studies.

Stay thirsty my dehydrated friends.

If I might add my perspective to what Keitaro and DC are discussing...

Yes, we are all addicted to nicotine the drug. However, I believe we are also addicted to the "act" of smoking, too.

...

I think this is a Very Good Point.

The Act of Smoking has been Deeply Ingrained in most of for Years. For some, like myself, Decades. So yes, I do believe the Ritualistic Habit of putting a Cigarette in Ones Mouth and then taking a Hit is a Big Part of My Addiction.

But I Don't think I can buy into the Belief that Nicotine is a Non-Addicting Substance.

I can understand it being Hard to Switch from Analogs to 0mg e-Liquids directly. Because Analogs contain other Chemicals (many are Added by BT). And I firmly believe I had a Chemical Addiction to those Chemicals. Which was by design.

But why is it So Hard for Most people who have Not Smoked a Cigarette for 90 Days or more to go from a Nicotine e-Liquid to a 0mg Nicotine if Nicotine is not Addictive?

 

[Ken_A]

...
But I Don't think I can buy into the Belief that Nicotine is a Non-Addicting Substance.
...

good thing too, since all studies show that when removed from tobacco, it's equal to caffeine in the addiction department.