Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[awsum140]

If it doesn't exclude O2 then why doesn't a copper wire oxidize? The same principle applies with titanium or any other wire.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

If it doesn't exclude O2 then why doesn't a copper wire oxidize? The same principle applies with titanium or any other wire.

You may be right but that would predict if you screwed down ti wire in a Cu sandwich (so the Ti doesn't see the screw and no oxidation is removed) then it shouldn't fire right?!?

 

[awsum140]

I think it would fire as a result of squirm, compression and distortion as the pressure increases. Keep in mind we are talking about a layer of oxidation probably a few microns, at most, thick. It doesn't take a whole heck of a lot of pressure/abrasion to penetrate/clean something that thin off.

 

[Quantum Mech]

With all the wuss about wire torching and pulsing, we better lay low a little while big guys discuss all the implications.

Personally I can make losely, ugly spaced coils out of Ti without applying heat but it's nerve wrecking. Much easier to use a small torch (which now I'm told is worse than dry pulsing). Gee, one comment and half my hobby is destroyed.

What a way to start the week

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Your wish is granted

Dr Farsalinos talks about Ti & says its likely the safest option as long as you don't over heat it

Jump to 43:22

 

[SotosB]

You may be right but that would predict if you screwed down ti wire in a Cu sandwich (so the Ti doesn't see the screw and no oxidation is removed) then it shouldn't fire right?!?

Isn't cu a conductive material? Sure it will fire

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Isn't cu a conductive material? Sure it will fire

But the Ti ox layer is between the Ti metal and the Cu! See what I mean?!? Anyway it's a moot point as it seems to work. vape on!!

 

[tchavei]

Your wish is granted

Dr Farsalinos talks about Ti & says its likely the safest option as long as you don't over heat it

Jump to 43:22

Well, If he said that, he can't be so bad [emoji14]

But the Ti ox layer is between the Ti metal and the Cu! See what I mean?!? Anyway it's a moot point as it seems to work. Vape on!!

Like was stated before, the layer is so thin, you would get a could contact just by touching or gently pressing the metals together.

I remember once, during the dark ages of kanthal that I had a perfectly functional coil and after passing it under water, drying it, I fired it and for the first couple of seconds it was shorting left and right (looked like an orange chessboard). So even passing under water was enough to temporarily destroy the oxide layer.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheBloke]

So guys, this whole oxidisation thing. It's all pretty new to me - I had often wondered why Kanthal micro coils didn't short but I had just assumed that it was something like the join between two coils wasn't as good/solid a connection as carrying on down the wire. I only really understood that there was an oxidisation layer in the last couple of days, from the Dr F thread and this thread.

I have some questions if anyone has some time:

1. How unique to Kanthal is this oxidisation layer - or what is special about Kanthal's?
   1. I'm reading in the Dr F thread that Kanthal has a special layer, that's what makes it so good as a resistance heating wire.
   2. But then Titanium also allows contact coils
   3. And my experimentation with SS317L (Stainless Steel 317) indicates it also seems to work - although in my brief tests so far I've had weird resistance results for the first couple of pulses, and both times I tested it, TC didn't work when I first hit fire on a contact coil - either the resistance stayed the same and no heat, or the resistance and temperature shot way up to like 800°F and the coil glowed and slightly changed colour (greyish?) Then it worked as a contact coil.
      1. That greyness must be it oxidising, right? And that oxidising makes it work as contact coil?
   4. So do most metals oxidise and prevent shorts? At least, Kanthal, Ti and SS317L - but not Ni200? But Kanthal's is better/stronger? In the Dr F thread there is talk of Kanthal's layer being an insulator etc.
2. If the Kanthal oxidisation layer prevents it shorting between coils, wouldn't it also prevent it shorting against any other metal - eg if the coil touches the base or chimney of the atty?
   1. So could I make a Kanthal coil, dry burn it until it glows evenly, and then have it touching the chimney?
      1. Ditto Ti/SS317L? But not dry burning, just pulsing for these
   2. Because now and then I've been in situations where I was almost certain my coil was touching the atty, and wondered how it wasn't shorting - I just figured there must be a microscopic gap
   3. But many times I definitely have had shorts against the atty/chimney - but maybe those times were always before I dry burned and/or they were with Ni200
   4. Taking a real example: Aqua v2 RTA, I always always struggle getting big coils in, constantly fiddling until they fit inside the chimney. It would be so nice if they coudl touch the chimney and not short. But I am sure they do (I can see the ohms drop as I put the chimney on), even after I have dry burned them until they glow evenly.
      1. Or maybe, as per what awsum said, even the slightest touch against the chimney is enough to destroy that thin layer - even on Kanthal? (But then, why can I poke and prod coils with screwdrivers and tweezers and it glows beautifully even after that - in fact, that poking and prodding helps it glow evenly? Why doesn't that destroy the oxidisation layer?)
3. In the case of Titanium, to what extent is the pulsing/dry burning that Tony talks about related to oxidisation?
   1. Up until now I thought he was only do it to make the coil easier to work with - more malleable
   2. But is part of it related to better oxidisation / making contact coils as well? Do I have to pulse the coil until it's blue to make a Ti contact coil?

TIA!

 

[TheBloke]

Also, on the issue that Steve is asking about of "why does the oxidisation layer prevent coil-to-coil shorts but not prevent coil-to-screw connectivity?" : I would have had the exact same question.

But I just had a thought - could this be why we have to tighten down wires so tight? That's something I could never understand either: I couldn't understand why I would get ohms jumping around unless my screws were really tight when the wire was clearly already touching the screw before I tightened it even further. If the wire was tight enough so it didn't move on its own, tight enough so it only moved if I pulled/pushed it hard, why did that still result in high/inconsistent resistance?

Now I'm wondering, could this be related to oxidisation? Could it be that, unless the screw is super tight, air does still get to it and it oxidises and affects the connectivity between wire and screw? And once it oxidises it's a poor/high resistance connection, until you re-tighten which both scrapes off the existing layer and also blocks out further air preventing a new layer forming?

 

[tchavei]

So guys, this whole oxidisation thing. It's all pretty new to me - I had often wondered why Kanthal micro coils didn't short but I had just assumed that it was something like the join between two coils wasn't as good/solid a connection as carrying on down the wire. I only really understood that there was an oxidisation layer in the last couple of days, from the Dr F thread and this thread.

I have some questions if anyone has some time:

1. How unique to Kanthal is this oxidisation layer - or what is special about Kanthal's?
   1. I'm reading in the Dr F thread that Kanthal has a special layer, that's what makes it so good as a resistance heating wire.
   2. But then Titanium also allows contact coils
   3. And my experimentation with SS317L (Stainless Steel 317) indicates it also seems to work - although in my brief tests so far I've had weird resistance results for the first couple of pulses, and both times I tested it, TC didn't work when I first hit fire on a contact coil - either the resistance stayed the same and no heat, or the resistance and temperature shot way up to like 800°F and the coil glowed and slightly changed colour (greyish?) Then it worked as a contact coil.
      1. That greyness must be it oxidising, right? And that oxidising makes it work as contact coil?
   4. So do most metals oxidise and prevent shorts? At least, Kanthal, Ti and SS317L - but not Ni200? But Kanthal's is better/stronger? In the Dr F thread there is talk of Kanthal's layer being an insulator etc.
2. If the Kanthal oxidisation layer prevents it shorting between coils, wouldn't it also prevent it shorting against any other metal - eg if the coil touches the base or chimney of the atty?
   1. So could I make a Kanthal coil, dry burn it until it glows evenly, and then have it touching the chimney?
      1. Ditto Ti/SS317L? But not dry burning, just pulsing for these
   2. Because now and then I've been in situations where I was almost certain my coil was touching the atty, and wondered how it wasn't shorting - I just figured there must be a microscopic gap
   3. But many times I definitely have had shorts against the atty/chimney - but maybe those times were always before I dry burned and/or they were with Ni200
   4. Taking a real example: Aqua v2 RTA, I always always struggle getting big coils in, constantly fiddling until they fit inside the chimney. It would be so nice if they coudl touch the chimney and not short. But I am sure they do (I can see the ohms drop as I put the chimney on), even after I have dry burned them until they glow evenly.
      1. Or maybe, as per what awsum said, even the slightest touch against the chimney is enough to destroy that thin layer - even on Kanthal? (But then, why can I poke and prod coils with screwdrivers and tweezers and it glows beautifully even after that - in fact, that poking and prodding helps it glow evenly? Why doesn't that destroy the oxidisation layer?)
3. In the case of Titanium, to what extent is the pulsing/dry burning that Tony talks about related to oxidisation?
   1. Up until now I thought he was only do it to make the coil easier to work with - more malleable
   2. But is part of it related to better oxidisation / making contact coils as well? Do I have to pulse the coil until it's blue to make a Ti contact coil?

TIA!

I can't answer most and what I can is my opinion only but here it goes:

Kanthal does form an oxide layer and so does titanium. Nickel does it also but at very high temperatures. The oxide layer might, or not, be conductive so that contributes to avoid shorts and hot legs.

Ti, I believe, is somehow special. The main impurity in it is oxygen. That makes dry burning somewhat different from torching. Why? Because you need oxygen to form titanium dioxide and don't ask me why but I can form titanium dioxide quickly by dry burning but have a hard time forming it with torching. It's like if the heat coming from inside the wire makes the oxygen leech and Ti O2 forms on the surface much faster than when you point a torch on it.

This is pure speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if some time from now, people would conclude that dry burning is better than torching EXCEPT when it comes to Ti as it seems to behave differently.

Titanium dioxide might have very different layer thicknesses. Some are really thin and can form at low temps. That's why contact coils actually work. When you torch or dry burn it enough, a thicker layer forms that can be seen as a grey coat.


Making a Ti contact coil without torching... I don't know simply because I never managed a contact coil with hard titanium wire. That thing is very springy. I did notice on my mutation x experience that several dry burns made the coil glow uniformly although the resistance didn't change.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[tchavei]

Also, on the issue that Steve is asking about of "why does the oxidisation layer prevent coil-to-coil shorts but not prevent coil-to-screw connectivity?" : I would have had the exact same question.

But I just had a thought - could this be why we have to tighten down wires so tight? That's something I could never understand either: I couldn't understand why I would get ohms jumping around unless my screws were really tight when the wire was clearly already touching the screw before I tightened it even further. If the wire was tight enough so it didn't move on its own, tight enough so it only moved if I pulled/pushed it hard, why did that still result in high/inconsistent resistance?

Now I'm wondering, could this be related to oxidisation? Could it be that, unless the screw is super tight, air does still get to it and it oxidises and affects the connectivity between wire and screw? And once it oxidises it's a poor/high resistance connection, until you re-tighten which both scrapes off the existing layer and also blocks out further air preventing a new layer forming?

I think you're right

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Tony
There is very little available oxygen in a torch flame (it is supporting combustion of the butane to make CO2 and H2O) whereas lots available to an electrically heated wire!!

 

[tchavei]

Tony
There is very little available oxygen in a torch flame (it is supporting combustion of the butane to make CO2 and H2O) whereas lots available to an electrically heated wire!!

Which explains why on our particular case, torching is probably a better idea than dry burning

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[Dobo]

Hi Tony,

I ordered some 28 G titanium from the German site you provided and intended to wrap them spaced. Could you please explain to me why are you building yours touching?

 

[TheBloke]

Touching, if it works, is so much more convenient and efficient than spaced. I always have trouble fitting the coils I want into RTA deck space. That's true even with touching coils (because I always want as big as possible inner diameter and to use twisted wire as much as possible). It's far worse with spaced.

Plus, a touching coil is a much more efficient/effective heating element - here's a good analogy I heard recently in another thread: imagine putting out ten candles, each separated by 1cm. Now compare that to 10 candles all in a 1cm radius. Clearly the latter will generate 10x more heat in the space above each candle, without using any more candles.

Same principle applies to coils. Greater efficiency and smaller area, means better coils in the space available. Especially if you want 'fancy' coils like multiple twisted wires and/or if you want dual or quad coils.

 

[tchavei]

Hi Tony,

I ordered some 28 G titanium from the German site you provided and intended to wrap them spaced. Could you please explain to me why are you building yours touching?

I won't enter the spaced versus full contact debate as both have merits. I only did it because:

a) I wanted to see if it was possible. Basically, for fun.

b) to shorten the coil length. This provides:

1) easier mounting on Rbas and small decks

2) more uniform airflow around the whole coil instead of only half

3) increased sturdiness to align better dual coil builds (mutation x for example)

I really don't want to speak about efficiency because there are very contracting reports. On the rayon thread most people prefer spaced coils because they appear to gunk less, don't exhibit hot spots and other associated stuff with over cooking e juice. You can make a Ti spaced coil without any torching while you need to heat the wire at least a bit to make a contact coil.

In the end, use what you like most

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[sando7]

this is good & now we know Ti will work either way spaced or contact, personally i'm going to stick with slightly spaced because it has worked perfectly for me from the beginning.....wrap your coil & vape-it, pretty simple really & no need to complicate it.

 

[tchavei]

this is good & now we know Ti will work either way spaced or contact, personally i'm going to stick with slightly spaced because it has worked perfectly for me from the beginning.....wrap your coil & vape-it, pretty simple really & no need to complicate it.

Yeah but I have some OCD and unless a spaced coil looks perfect, I can't stop thinking about it. I can't produce perfectly spaced coils without a little heat. So spaced or not, my torch has to go over half of the coil at least one itzy tiny time... "to break the molecular structure" [emoji14] [emoji14] [emoji14]

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[BNEAT]

I switched to spaced coils over a year ago because contact coils gunk up so badly. The only contact coils I use now are in attys with really small chambers. It didn't hurt my feelings one bit when we found out that Nickel doesn't like to touch itself

 

[sando7]

hey Tony, the Ringlord wire is a little different from what your using....when i wrap my coil i just press it tight on the bit and it spaces (springs back) almost perfect.