Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[TheotherSteveS]

Sorry if this is going over old ground but I see a lot of interest in Ti for TC vaping (myself included). Just noticed this from Stealthvape in Uk..

Titanium wires for vaping


Not sure what to think about this. They had a boatload to sell but decided not to on the basis it may be toxic under vaping conditions due to TiO2 production....

Though it might be good to throw it in there for discussion!

 

[sando7]

wonder what temp settings they were using, so far i have never seen any discoloration at 370 to 380 degrees F w/rayon....wish they would have expanded on their temp settings.....plus i never let my wick get dry nor have i seen any ignition of the wick....(insert scratch yer head icon here)

 

[Rossum]

Yup, I wouldn't use (pure) titanium on a mod w/o temperature regulation, but it works great on a DNA40. I've had the same coil on mine for a couple of months now, and I've vaped hundreds of ml though it with absolutely no change in the base resistance and no visible signs of oxide formation. I have the temperature limit set to 350F. Of course due to Ti's lower TCR, it actually runs hotter than that.

 

[sando7]

think i should drop my temp to 350 or am i fine at 370 - 380 ?

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Yup, I wouldn't use (pure) titanium on a mod w/o temperature regulation, but it works great on a DNA40. I've had the same coil on mine for a couple of months now, and I've vaped hundreds of ml though it with absolutely no change in the base resistance and no visible signs of oxide formation. I have the temperature limit set to 350F. Of course due to Ti's lower TCR, it actually runs hotter than that.

I guess that's great provided the damn mod doesn't jump out of TC or something. In any case, I think I'll give it a try!

 

[WickedBad]

I have been using TI since I got my DNA40. Never had a noticeable resistant changed and no fire. I have been dry firing and compressing coils and now I am thinking that is not a good idea. Anyone else dry firing? I am thinking when i make a wick change I should do a new coil so as not to dry burn to clean.

 

[Rossum]

Temperature controlled dry-firing isn't a problem. Or you can turn off TC and use a very low wattage. I clean my coils by getting them up to operating temperature (or a bit more) and then using wet pipe-cleaner on them. However, I'm not vaping a very gunky juice either, so it's not like I have a huge accumulation of crud to begin with.

 

[sando7]

i trust what this man says^^^^^^^^^^^^^.........good advice given to me fer sure

 

[Phone Guy]

Wow...I forgot about the juice with titanium oxide in it (or whatever it's called) I think it was cuttwood? Unicorn milk right? It made it white as I remember. And yeah there was a big stink about that.

Based on that alone, I'd have to say vaping titanium wire is probably not a good move? I don't know?

Does make me wonder what would happen to a titanium wire coil without temp control, straight wattage and a dry burn.. ? Fire maybe?

 

[stephanep]

I use titanium on a sx mini s class (without TC) and I have no oxide formation in use.

I tried the first time i used it a dry burn and i could see a white/yellow oxide on it but the coil has to reach a temp which is above use temp and glow fairly. I changed the coil directly.

I take care to not have hotleg and test the coil by firing the mod before i use it to make sure the coil doesn't glow.

The taste is far better than this ....ty kanthal, close to the one with 316L.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

This is an interesting thread!

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/gg/580313-titanium-wires-28.html

Turns out the Ti wire used in the test referred to on Stealthvape was a low grade wire. For what its worth, having ploughed through most of that thread and looked around on web I am reasonably convinced that Grade 1 Ti wire is as safe, if not safer than Kanthal under normal usage!

 

[stephanep]

In titanium, The lowest grade is the purest and the highest are alloy.
So Grade 1 Titanium (zivipf) is purer than Grade 10 which is an alloy.
The Grade 1 produce oxide at 500 C° (i think it is that temp, not quit sure) but not at normal coil temp.

 

[soulseek]

In titanium, The lowest grade is the purest and the highest are alloy.
So Grade 1 Titanium (zivipf) is purer than Grade 10 which is an alloy.
The Grade 1 produce oxide at 500 C° (i think it is that temp, not quit sure) but not at normal coil temp.

If your coil is reaching anything above 300C you have much more harmful things to worry about...

 

[tchavei]

There are extensive studies about titanium dioxide. I remember reading one in particular about a subject that worked for 13 years in the packing area of a titanium dioxide plant (the area with most suspended particles in the air) who developed lung cancer. Curiously, reading the subject's clinical history, he was also a 40 year daily 2 pack smoker but.. uhh... that's just a LITTLE detail... I'm glad the scientist focused on the titanium dioxide exposure instead

I haven't tried titanium wire yet. I have one en route that should arrive tomorrow (29Awg) but I'm still waiting for the technical sheet of it (not sure if grade 1 or 2). HOWEVER, after all the reading I did and looking at both my kids that have been drinking shiny white milk (yeah... it seems they put that stuff in there too...) during their infancy, I'm pretty convinced that titanium is as safe as any other thing we're putting in our lungs at the temperatures we should be vaping.

If I don't come here in a week timespan reporting my titanium wire experience, it will mean that I've died and you shouldn't use it.

Regards
Tony

 

[Phone Guy]

LMAO. Well can't argue with that logic

 

[TheotherSteveS]

On a serious note though, just because its safe to drink/eat doesn't mean its safe to inhale! To my mind, this is the biggest unknown in vaping at the moment - in particular we really don't know what inhaling flavourings in large quantities is actually doing in the long term! Almost certainly better than smoking whatever happens but we still don't really know!

Anyway, I have just taken delivery of 50 feet of 24g Ti Grade 1....lets see how it goes! Lol!

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Ok here we go. This was bugging me (and my fading memory of inorganic metallochemistry)

'When the titanium is exposed to ambient air at room temperature, a passive oxide film is spontaneously formed on its surface. This passive film is amorphous, very thin (5-10 nm thickness [9]), and composed of three layers [10, 11]: the first layer adjacent to metallic titanium is TiO, the intermediary layer is Ti2O3, and the third layer, which is in contact with the environment, is anatase TiO2. At room temperature, anatase TiO2 is the most important layer in thickness and responsible for the integration between the implant and the human bone when the material is not submitted to a thermal treatment at high temperature. The surface oxide film on titanium formed in the air is so protective that the further oxidation of titanium is prevented in various circumstances and mediums [12].'

I can supply the ref if anyone interested.

Basically, like many metals, the surface of metallic Ti oxidises quite happily at room temp in air. So the wire we are using is coated with TiO2 from the get go and there is nothing we can do about it. More oxidation and particularly formation of other forms of TiO2 (e.g. rutile) happens at higher temps but its not clear to me at the moment where this starts to be significant. It certainly doesn't appears to be a problem at 120C in water vapour (used for sterilisation of Ti implants)

So when using Ti in a coil, the surface is TiO2 which is biologically inert and this is what makes it great for implants. The problem from a vaping perspective is TiO2 particles. As far as I can see there are few if any conditions one could imagine in a vaping situation that would produce such particles!

To refer to Tony's earlier post, if we took the white TiO2 powder used in food colourings and paints etc and breathed a lot of that in, we would be in trouble. However, while it forms the protective surface in the wire, we are good to go! At least that's how it seems to me!

What do we think guys and girls?!?

 

[tchavei]

Ok here we go

'When the titanium is exposed to ambient air at room temperature, a passive oxide film is spontaneously formed on its surface. This passive film is amorphous, very thin (5-10 nm thickness [9]), and composed of three layers [10, 11]: the first layer adjacent to metallic titanium is TiO, the intermediary layer is Ti2O3, and the third layer, which is in contact with the environment, is anatase TiO2. At room temperature, anatase TiO2 is the most important layer in thickness and responsible for the integration between the implant and the human bone when the material is not submitted to a thermal treatment at high temperature. The surface oxide film on titanium formed in the air is so protective that the further oxidation of titanium is prevented in various circumstances and mediums [12].'

I can supply the ref if anyone interested.

So basically, like many/most metals I guess, the surface of metallic Ti oxidises quite happily at room temp in air. So the wire we are using is coated with TiO2 and there is nothing we can do about it. More oxidation and particularly formation of other forms of TiO2 (e.g. rutile) happens at higher temps.

So when using Ti in a coil, the surface is TiO2 which is biologically inert and this is what makes it great for implants. The problem from a gaping perspective is TiO2 particles. As far as I can see there are few if any conditions one could imagine in a gaping situation that would produce such particles!

What do we think guys and girls?!?

I think that the only concrete study I've come across refers to TiO2 nano particles having the ability to penetrante the brain barrier... Which goes for any nano particle I guess.

Titanium dioxide is in common white soap parents like to use to wash their infants clothing. How many TiO2 particles do you think get released from the clothes when you dress a baby? How many of them are inhaled and how many are nano sized to present a real risk?



Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

btw...anyone who has ever sanded down a wall painted with white emulsion has already breathed a good deal TiO2 in I reckon! I certainly have

 

[TheotherSteveS]

I think that the only concrete study I've come across refers to TiO2 nano particles having the ability to penetrante the brain barrier... Which goes for any nano particle I guess.

Titanium dioxide is in common white soap parents like to use to wash their infants clothing. How many TiO2 particles do you think get released from the clothes when you dress a baby? How many of them are inhaled and how many are nano sized to present a real risk?



Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Hi Tony,

I just edited my post sort of along those lines!! I was a bit concerned but I think we are fine with Ti wire. Good job since, as I said, I just took delivery of 50 ft of it!

Best

Steve