Another article on the Juul

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NorthOfAtlanta

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That was the Hardest Cigarette to Not Smoke. The Mourning Cigarette with Coffee.

It was Also the Cigarette that kept the Hook in my Mouth. And made it Extreme Hard to completely Quit Smoking. I could see Potential Benefits to this juul as part of a "Dual Use" e-Cigarette plan.

juul when Not Awake and drinking Coffee. Regular e-Cigarette in the Mourning. juul after Lunch. Regular e-Cigarette in the Afternoon. Juul after Diner. Regular e-Cigarette in the Evening.

Perhaps a Juul isn't going to replace Regular e-Cigarettes? But I could see Possibilities for Someone who is having a Hard Time getting "Over the Hump".

This and first time users, those who would have grabbed a blue or similar cig-a-like. If they work anywhere near as good as advertised we may see fewer of the "I tried those things once and they just don't work" types who bought their first one at the local convenience store and were totally turned off by lack of hit, vapor and battery life.
 
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Rossum

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That was the Hardest Cigarette to Not Smoke. The Mourning Cigarette with Coffee.
Nah, for me the hardest one at first was mid-morning, after I'd already been vaping and drinking coffee for a few hours, or right after lunch. WTA fixed that for me.

Lately, I've come to realize how much I miss that "kick start". Don't worry, I'm not even slightly tempted to resort to combustibles to get it, but if the Juul's secret sauce will provide it, I want it. :)
 
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Kurt

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I doubt this is WTA. I'll try to explain some of the chemistry here, but the philosophy behind using "salts" is not new. There was another inhalation device proposed by Altria some years ago that used the pyruvate salt of nicotine. Nicotine is a base (amine, to be precise). The form we are used to is the "free-base" form, meaning it is just nicotine. But in plants, since it is a base, it can react with any acids present (including water to a small extent), and turn into the "salt" or "acid" form. The chemistry is not hard, but it does require a knowledge of acids and bases.

Suppose there is citric acid (HCA) present with nicotine (Nic). A small amount of these will react:

Nic + HCA ---> Nic-H+ + CA-

CA- is citrate (conjugate base of citric acid). Nic-H+ is the nicotinium ion, which is just Nic with an H+ attached to the amine N. So the product is nicotinium citrate, also known as the citrate salt of nicotine. It is still nicotine, and if absorbed will behave as nicotine in the brain, but the salt has different absorption properties than the free-base Nic.

Oral absorption (mouth, throat, much of what we get when we vape): Generally slower than lung absorption. Free-base absorbs faster than the salt form. This is why some snus has sodium bicarbonate added, to act as a base and turn naturally occurring nicotine salts in tobacco to the free-base form. The HCO3- ion just pulls the H+ off the nicotinium ion.

Lung absorption: faster than oral in general, but hard to do in vapor form (droplets are generally too big to penetrate the lungs as much as orally). Salt form tends to penetrate deeper into the lungs than freebase wrapped in VG/PG droplets. This is because the salt form tends to be a fine solid. So if you could make the nicotine salt with a safe acid, like citric or pyruvic, and somehow atomize the powdery salt, it should get to the lungs more effectively than the free-base form.

But its not just free-base vs salt form. Gaseous free-base nic will get to the lungs just fine. The problem is that is not what we vape. We inhale relatively large droplets of VG/PG that has nicotine free-base contained in them. Make the droplets smaller, or no droplets at all, just gas-phase, and lung absorption increases. Higher heat and/or lower e-liquid viscosity will help this.

It looks like the idea with the Juul is to include nicotine salts (my guess is primarily pyruvate salt, but this is just a guess), and increase lung absorption. This is the only way to get the rapid spike in serum nicotine to mimic smoking, which is primarily lung absorption of naturally occurring nic salts in cured tobacco. This and a very high nic concentration, which also increases the amount absorbed in the lungs. These in combination should provide lung absorption better than just a 50 mg/mL vape.

As far as I can see, there are no other tobacco alkaloids or psychoactives present, just nicotine and nicotine salts.

If I see them being sold in a convenience store, I will probably try it, just to see. But I have been smoke-free for almost 2 years now, and don't think about smoking anymore. What would be of interest is a study that shows the Juul does better for quitting than even good ecigs.

Hope this clarifies things!
 

Kurt

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Additionally, I think a similar effect might be possible by simply lowering the pH of an e-liquid with a safe acid. I know Vermont Vapor uses citric acid to adjust the pH of their DIY nicotine base, down to about pH 8, which would be a significant amount of citrate salt form compared to free-base form. I have always found that nic to be particularly satisfying, also tastes really good, but I don't know if this is why. It would depend on how solvated the salt is in VG vapor droplets (they only use VG and water, no PG). I don't know if studies have been done on this. Would be expensive to analyze.
 

zoiDman

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Hope this clarifies things!

A Big Thanks for Chiming In on what may be the e-Liquid in the Juul. I could follow Most of it. Even though Chemistry is by No Means an area of Expertise for Me.

Thanks Again Kurt.

BTW - From the Juul Website, they say that the Juul is sold at these Locations in your State.

  • Circle K
  • Nittany Oil
  • Rutters
  • SHEETZ
  • Speedway
  • Sunoco/MACS

JUUL Retailers | JUUL
 

Rossum

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It looks like the idea with the Juul is to include nicotine salts (my guess is primarily pyruvate salt, but this is just a guess)
Juul's FAQ states their juice contains VG, PG, Nic, and Benzoic Acid.

If adding a pinch of Benzoic Acid to normal juice is all that's needed to get the quicker absorption and "kick", then that should be entirely straightforward. But I really wonder if there isn't more to it than that.
 

nicnik

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Juul's FAQ states their juice contains VG, PG, Nic, and Benzoic Acid.

If adding a pinch of Benzoic Acid to normal juice is all that's needed to get the quicker absorption and "kick", then that should be entirely straightforward. But I really wonder if there isn't more to it than that.

Do you get what you pay for, or is bargain hunting OK?

Benzoic Acid FCC USP Grade 99 Pure 1lb Bag | eBay

EMD Millipore - 8.22257.5000 - Benzoic acid for synthesis (Case of 4 (5kg))

Big difference in prices.
 

DC2

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I doubt this is WTA. I'll try to explain some of the chemistry here, but the philosophy behind using "salts" is not new
Yeah, I realized it wasn't WTA once I saw that it was salts.
And by the way, thanks for the explanation.
:)
 
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zoiDman

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Rossum

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Something about buying Chemicals on e-Bay from people with 98.9% Feedback Ratings and then doing Bucket Chemistry in my Bathroom just doesn't Seem Right.
LOL
You're right. The bathroom tends to have a lot of coliform bacteria. That's why I do this kind of thing in my kitchen. :w00t:
 

zoiDman

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You're right. The bathroom tends to have a lot of coliform bacteria. That's why I do this kind of thing in my kitchen. :w00t:

Just seems there is No Place safe from those Little Buggers.

"Dirty Places: Your Salt and Pepper Shaker
Could one of the dirtiest places in your home be right on the table where you eat?

Unfortunately, yes, according to a 2008 study by researchers at the University of Virginia. In the study, researchers asked 30 adults who were beginning to show signs of a cold, to name 10 places they’d touched in their homes over the previous 18 hours. The researchers then tested those areas for cold viruses. The tests found viruses on 41% of the surfaces tested, and every one of the salt and pepper shakers tested were positive for cold viruses.

Quick fix to banish bacteria:

When you wipe the kitchen table after eating, wipe off the salt and pepper shaker too. But your best protection against spreading or picking up germs when you reach for seasonings is to
wash your hands -- before and after."

6 Places Germs & Bacteria Thrive in Your Home

 

stevegmu

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Exposing one's self to various kinds of germs and bacteria is a good thing. Builds up a tolerance. Those who live in semi sterile environments have weak immune systems...

I'm going to stop by a Sheetz to see if they have any later today and get a kit if they do...
 

zoiDman

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Exposing one's self to various kinds of germs and bacteria is a good thing. Builds up a tolerance. Those who live in semi sterile environments have weak immune systems...

I'm going to stop by a Sheetz to see if they have any later today and get a kit if they do...

Damn Straight Steve.

In the Immortal words of George Carlin...

"What is the Use of having an Immune System if you don't give it something to practice on once and while?"
 

nicnik

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Just seems there is No Place safe from those Little Buggers.

"Dirty Places: Your Salt and Pepper Shaker
Could one of the dirtiest places in your home be right on the table where you eat?

Unfortunately, yes, according to a 2008 study by researchers at the University of Virginia. In the study, researchers asked 30 adults who were beginning to show signs of a cold, to name 10 places they’d touched in their homes over the previous 18 hours. The researchers then tested those areas for cold viruses. The tests found viruses on 41% of the surfaces tested, and every one of the salt and pepper shakers tested were positive for cold viruses.

Quick fix to banish bacteria:

When you wipe the kitchen table after eating, wipe off the salt and pepper shaker too. But your best protection against spreading or picking up germs when you reach for seasonings is to
wash your hands -- before and after."

6 Places Germs & Bacteria Thrive in Your Home
Obsessive hand washing can be a big problem in itself. I should know. Think before you wash.
 
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