Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Rossum]

Lessifer, I agree with you too, actually. The deeming issue and handing vaping over to FDA/BT is not fair. They didn't develop those products. In FACT, they could have done vaping for ages, one of my pdocs in '99 (while soulfully staring at me sadly and recommending prescription nicotine device, I think one of the throat or nose sprays) after turning me down flat for Chantix, said this, "You know, back in the 60s, tobacco makers got together and investigated non-burning products due to the fact that so many smokers would be hearing negative data, could have easily-- and did investigate-- these products before turning them down thinking the market wouldn't want to deal with them.

From a technological standpoint, I'm not so sure. To make an effective, portable vaping device, you kinda need lithium-ion batteries. No other battery tech is able to provide the necessary power while also delivering reasonable capacity, and Li-ion battery tech wasn't widely available until the turn of the century.

Now tethered to an AC outlet (or the 12V available in a car) would have been no problem for many decades, but I do not think that tethered would have been well-accepted.

Several decades ago, BT did try Heat-not-Burn where the heat was supplied by a burning charcoal pellet because battery tech wasn't up to the job. This was a major flop. Now the're back with Li-ion battery powered devices like iQOS, which have been quite successful in some markets...

 

[Rossum]

Now, trying to follow the illogical and unreasonable nature of the current interpretation of the TCA, if I mixed up a drink and stood on the corner with my lemonade nicotine energy stand, is that a tobacco product? There's no combustion, no heating, no harm reduction claim, and no appearance of smoking associated with it. Granted, in a paper bag it might be mistaken for Thunderbird, but not much I can do about that. If that is classified as a tobacco product then the TCA has nothing to do with tobacco, just nicotine. And that's a tough sell for me, as I don't recall anything in the TCA talking about nicotine (if there is, well, there goes that argument).

Somebody tried that with Nicotine water in the early 2000s and the FDA smacked it down as an illegal drug:
FDA Shuts Off Nicotine Water Spigot

 

[stols001]

Hmm... interesting. I think my doc was talking more about more potent inhalers, certainly different from e-cig technology. That wouldn't suit me that much, I don't think. I'm *so glad* that BT is currently stealing, then demonizing, e-cig technology. That's faBULOUS. I mean, we're in an "emporer's new clothes" situation. Do they not see the hypocrasy in this? I guess not. I'm not returning to "smoking" with the iQOS, that's for sure. Though, they may actually be rather attractive to smokers trying to quit, in the end. They get their "vape" at high prices and it will be called, "Just like smoking, without the risk." I'm pretty sure that many cigarette makers are dying to get something out. Sigh.

That said, for the smokers it works for, reducing their risk, amen to them. If that's how it has to happen, perhaps it's a good thing. I imagine it will end up being successful in many markets... I guess they aren't worried about it not being on the market at whatever date, either, which makes no sense to me... Did they just get approved before the deadline, or what?

Anna

 

[Rossum]

Fuel to the fire:
Does the TCA cover synthetic nicotine?
Also, is synthetic nicotine derived from tobacco?
What about nicotine derived from tomatoes?

The only reason that the FDA hasn't banned nicotine products (other than the BP ones that it approved for smoking cessation) is because they are "tobacco products" due to the nicotine being extracted from tobacco, which have special protections. Try to market nicotine products that use nicotine that isn't extracted from tobacco and the I predict the FDA will ban them as unapproved drugs (or drug delivery devices).

 

[Rossum]

I'm not returning to "smoking" with the iQOS, that's for sure. Though, they may actually be rather attractive to smokers trying to quit, in the end. They get their "vape" at high prices and it will be called, "Just like smoking, without the risk." I'm pretty sure that many cigarette makers are dying to get something out. Sigh.

I'm with you on that. iQOS is the prefect replacement for smoking as far as BT and BG is concerned. You can't make your sticks (like many of us make our own liquid) for pennies a day, so BT can continue to sell you sticks, and BG can tax them just like cigarettes.

 

[zoiDman]

The only reason that the FDA hasn't banned nicotine products (other than the BP ones that it approved for smoking cessation) is because they are "tobacco products" due to the nicotine being extracted from tobacco, which have special protections. ...

That is the Double Edge Sword of being a Tobacco Product. The Protections of the Recreational Use of Tobacco. Verses those in Government who say the Only Good Tobacco Product is a Non-Marketed Tobacco Product.

The FDA's Deeming of e-Cigarettes is Beautiful. Doesn't violate the FSTCA by Banning a Market Sector. Or the Protections of the Recreational Use of Tobacco. But makes it Cost/Procedure prohibitive so that only a Handful of Players can be bring a Less Harmful product to Market.

And then we get a Judge who Defers to the FDA's Expert Knowledge and Reasonable Judgment.

 

[stols001]

Well, I have my vapocalypse closet and the husband is still smoking... We might start a tobacco greenhouse or something, I am NOT giving BT anymore of my money. Hopefully we can get it done right so it can become tobacco...

That's depressing, we make our products with nicotine too! So we shouldn't fall under seperate regulations. Damn. It. The more I learn, the more I want to just run back to DC and become A BIG vape lobbyist, offering all the options you could probably want. No, then again, I don't want to join that cesspool grew up some of my teen years and early adulthood there, and waited on senators. They were pleasant and all but I was younger and pretti(er) then. Though, the wrinkles leaving is pretty intense, i no longer have that leathery face, it's kind of pleasant. But the swamp would be better off drained. I HAVE only seen the kind of draining that... no, it's not good. Sigh.

Anna

 

[Rossum]

That is the Double Edge Sword of being a Tobacco Product. The Protections of the Recreational Use of Tobacco. Verses those in Government who say the Only Good Tobacco is a Non-Marketed Tobacco Product.

Look at the bright side; Judge Leon's ruling in Sottera v. FDA gave vaping the better part of a decade to become entrenched. If the FDA had killed it in 2009, I suspect that most us would still be smoking. At this point vaping has reached a critical mass that I don't believe it had back then, and it isn't going away in our lifetimes no matter what the FDA does. Sure, it will become more difficult and expensive for newbies, but I do expect that at least some effective products will get PMTAs.

 

[stols001]

I really hope so, Rossem. Thinking optimistically, they aren't going to ban everything, it's just a matter of what will be banned. I think that vats of nicotine certainly will be! Oh the children! Etc. Hopefully they leave enough in place that they can tax the revenue on vapers. And yes, I do feel sorry for new vapers... Also, this FDA thing? I don't know how those of you at ecf were able to weather the oncoming storm for so long.... It's like, "You will be deemed," with not a ton of information. I don't want them to be published substantially, in a way, then there's a part of me that's like, "I never want to find out." Congrats on maintaining emotional balance, you guys who are doing that, need to go to the thread on Customs in Canada, and help a dude out. Though, he seems to be slowly chilling. But my point is, it's kind of agonizing, having all this hanging over our heads, it really just sucks. And, it's so unfair! I guess I need to thank my 3rd pneumonia in a row, I feel SO much better, and I had time to stock up and learning places here... So I'm luckier than the vaper who happens along in 2019 or whenever this insanity gets through Congress for approval... Sigh. Looking on the bright side! But I just know that if vaping had not been an option, I don't think I could have quit. I don't like cigalikes. Yah!

okay, seem to be rambling but man, troubling times.

Anna

 

[DC2]

Not to get too political, but why did we ever allow our elected representatives to hand over so much power and responsibility to non-elected persons? Not just these agencies but also appointed judges? Sorry, I'll stop now. I just get so disgusted.

Best post ever made anywhere.

The honest truth is that the "fourth branch of government" is not constitutional.
It may have been born of honest intentions, but it's now corrupt.

And it bypasses all the checks and balances that this country intended.
There can be very few things more wrong than that.

 

[stols001]

I kinda think, sometimes, that a forced lottery should be put in place to minimize the infighting and the ridiculous stuff. Then I think of all the people who'd need to be included in the lottery. This one homeless dude was holding a sign before I could yell about his sign (lights were timed wrong), the sign was, "too honest to steal, too ugly for prostitution, please help." My yell would have been, "Oh, I'll pimp you out alright.... You get a 40 % cut, if you behave, that is," because, goose and gander etc. The guy looked fine, his hair was well done, he was either travelling through to somewhere, or just making money at being homeless.

Okay, so he would be in the lottery too, and I'm actually okay with that, compared to our legislators.... They steal far more money than this dude probably collects, even if he does have a nice wife and kids to go home to. Sigh.

Anna

 

[DC2]

I read where some homeless folks make up $80,000 per year.
I really don't know what to do anymore.

I also hear that in San Francisco they average $25 per day.
That's not much, but I've never seen a starving homeless person either.

So I went out and bought breakfast bars.

I have a box of yummy blueberry cereals bars.
And a box of healthy fruit and nut bars.

I give the homeless folks one of each.
I figure it's something I can do without feeling like what I'm doing is wrong.

 

[stols001]

Or, donate to your local shelter. That's what I do, because the homeless are swarms around here, so when asked for money (at least once a day if you leave the house) I can then say, "I donated all your money to the Salvation Army, why don't you go ask them?" Works like a charm. My hope is that someone actually goes there. I got hit on by a homeless dude a few days ago taking my kiddo to the Food Pantry, and I was like, "Either that dude has a very healthy self-esteem, or mine will fall quite a bit, based on this interaction." Fortunately food pantry man dispatched him with ease and before I could get morose or belligerant. Though, being hit on by skeeze happens to kinda be my thing.... You should meet my ex-husband. Times have changed though, I got older and cranky. I don't mind if some dude around my age or even slightly older, but I prefer a guy, with, you know, a mailing address and whatnot.

Anna

 

[CMD-Ky]

Or, donate to your local shelter. That's what I do, because the homeless are swarms around here, so when asked for money (at least once a day if you leave the house) I can then say, "I donated all your money to the Salvation Army, why don't you go ask them?" Works like a charm. My hope is that someone actually goes there. I got hit on by a homeless dude a few days ago taking my kiddo to the Food Pantry, and I was like, "Either that dude has a very healthy self-esteem, or mine will fall quite a bit, based on this interaction." Fortunately food pantry man dispatched him with ease and before I could get morose or belligerant. Though, being hit on by skeeze happens to kinda be my thing.... You should meet my ex-husband. Times have changed though, I got older and cranky. I don't mind if some dude around my age or even slightly older, but I prefer a guy, with, you know, a mailing address and whatnot.

Anna

And all of this discussion of the homeless and "pimping" (above) relates to the Deeming Regulations in what way?

 

[440BB]

I expected there to be more of a reaction to the Nicopure court decision. I wonder if enough time has passed since the deeming without much of a noticeable change in price and availability that many aren't paying attention at this point.

 

[Eskie]

There hasn't been any reaction as it was released on a summer Friday, likely midday and there's not a lot of people around formulating statements and press releases. Wait until Monday and Tuesday for that to roll in.

 

[SteveS45]

I have seen a lot of posts about the court decision just not here.

 

[Eskie]

Unless I'm mistaken, the reaction is not a bunch of forum posts, but statements from the plaintiffs involved. It will be their decisions as to the next step they intend to take next, if any.

 

[SteveS45]

As I am sure you know there is more to Social Media than just the forums and I guess it depends on where your attention is focused.

 

[Eskie]

Given the release over a summer weekend, and given this thread does not get a lot of posts on average, 80 new posts on the subject is some attention. There certainly are other forums and social media, but other than reading the same disappointment expressed elsewhere I personally am more interested in what Nicopure and the other plaintiffs have to say. They're the ones to call the next steps, and more relevant to any further judicial action.