TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

[TheBloke]

I've been using Resistherm exclusively for the last couple of days, and making more progress in getting good coils.

Overall I'm quite liking it:

1. I am now using 2x twisted strands, giving a greater surface area. This also makes it somewhat easier to handle in terms of not being so thin.
   1. The downside is that it is super springy when twisted.
2. I have found the best way of working with it, at least for contact coils, is to treat it like Kanthal:
   1. I make the contact coil
   2. I put the mod in Power mode
   3. I pulse it gently, around 15-20W
   4. At first I will see many hot spots - hot legs, inconsistent hot areas in the middle of the coil etc
   5. I tweak the coil/compress it with tweezers
   6. After a couple of pulses I start to see the colour change, there is a darkening of the wire but also some coloured highlights, sort of bluey in places - but not blue all round like Titanium or SS
   7. I keep pulsing in power mode until the coil glows evenly, inside-out, exactly like Kanthal
   8. Then I switch back to TC mode and vape as normal
3. The first couple of pulses on a contact coil, TC will not work - resistance doesn't rise.
4. But after a couple of pulses the TC will kick in, and it will stop sending power to the coil (because it is dry/bare)
   1. This is why I do my pulsing in Power mode, because the first couple of pulses are not enough to get the contact coil glowing nice and evenly, inside-to-out, so if you stop just when TC works, you don't have the best coil.
   2. This also makes me wonder about those Titanium contact coils we might make - we can't heat them enough to glow (or shouldn't), so are they really heating efficiently like we would want?
   3. They aren't shorting, and they work for TC, but from my experience with Resistherm, Stainless Steel and of course Kanthal, I don't think they're heating cleanly inside-out either.
5. In total it doesn't take any longer to get the coil perfect than it does for Kanthal
6. The only inconvenience is needing to switch out of TC mode and into Power, and back
   1. Possibly this could be fixed by setting the temp much too high - but I think even 300°C would not be quite enough perhaps (I haven't tested this.)
7. Tonight I also tried pre-pulsing - like I do with Titanium - to make the twisted wire less springy, easier to twist
   1. This is the same as people do with twisted Ni200 - a quick torch after twisting to make it less springy
   2. But I have no torch, so I do pulsing in power mode
   3. I put about 150mm of 2x29G twisted Resistherm in a spare atty, and fired it at 30W
   4. I fired it until the wire darkened noticeably - it does not change to a pretty colour like Titanium or Stainless Steel
   5. After doing so I then made a coil as normal
   6. It was still quite springy, but I feel it was a bit easier to work with - when I pulled the coil tight over the rod, it did bounce back a bit but held its shape quite well; with the non-torched twisted wire it sometimes unwinds a couple of turns at least.

I still cannot decide whether I prefer Resistherm or Titanium. @soulseek is right that Titanium provides much greater choice of wire size. On the other hand, I found a could make a better contact coil with Resistherm, glowing nicely inside-to-out, and I was not worried about over heating like I am with Titanium.

@soulseek says he gets better flavour with Titanium but I cannot recreate that - I am not one to be able to judge flavour differences between wires

So the jury is still out for me on Resistherm. But the fact that it is so expensive, and only from one supplier in one size, will certainly be an important factor. I still have more than 9m of wire left (and hopefully I will get a bit more with my Dicodes 2380), so I have plenty of time to do more comparisons with Titanium and SS.

 

[dems86]

I'm about to order some Ti from Unkamen, I hear 26ga is really good, and have also been told 24ga works great in drippers.

I mainly use 28ga in Kanthal (sometimes 27, rarely 26), and I'm a big RTA guy, with some bottom feeding too.

Should I just go for 26ga, or will 28ga work well too for TC (or will the resistance be too high?). How about 24ga in tanks?



THE WGU CLUB

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Hum, well that's a lot better than balazsk got. Compared to what? SX Mini M with Set Resistance?

missed that one. No its just what I see on the knagxin (and the invader mini but same chip pretty much)..

 

[TheBloke]

I'm about to order some Ti from Unkamen, I hear 26ga is really good, and have also been told 24ga works great in drippers.

I mainly use 28ga in Kanthal (sometimes 27, rarely 26), and I'm a big RTA guy, with some bottom feeding too.

Should I just go for 26ga, or will 28ga work well too for TC (or will the resistance be too high?). How about 24ga in tanks?



THE WGU CLUB

I ordered 24, 26, 28 and 30, and so far I've used 26 and 28. They work fine.

Even 30 should, though you will start getting up to 1.0Ω so duals might be in order for some builds.

As an example from Steam Engine: 0.25m wire (which is may be what '30G' will actually be, it is here at least), 3.0mm coils, 7 wraps is 0.8Ω, 9 wraps is 1.0Ω.

So if 30 is usable I can't imagine you'd find many builds you can't do with 28. I believe @tchavei uses 28 exclusively (well, 0.32mm which is a tiny fraction thinner than 28G @ 0.321mm)

When you get your wire, check to see if it really is 26/28/30 gauge, and not actually in mm - it may be, even in the US. If it is, Steam Engine allows you to enter the exact size in mm to get the right Ω.

So far I'm liking 26 best because it's nice and easy to work with - after pre-pulsing, anyway.

I haven't tried twisting wire yet but that's on my (ever growing) list.

 

[dems86]

I ordered 24, 26, 28 and 30, and so far I've used 26 and 28. They work fine.

Even 30 should, though you will start getting up to 1.0Ω so duals might be in order for some builds.

As an example from Steam Engine: 0.25m wire (which is may be what '30G' will likely actually be, it is here at least), 3.0mm coils, 7 wraps is 0.8Ω, 9 wraps is 1.0Ω.

So if 30 is usable I can't imagine you'd find many builds you can't do with 28. I believe @tchavei uses 28 exclusively (well, 0.32mm which is a tiny fraction thinner than 28G @ 0.321mm)

When you get your wire, check to see if it really is 26/28/30 gauge, and not actually in mm - it may be, even in the US. If it is, Steam Engine allows you to enter the exact size in mm to get the right Ω.

So far I'm liking 26 best because it's nice and easy to work with - after pre-pulsing, anyway.

I haven't tried twisting wire yet but that's on my (ever growing) list.

Higher ohm builds are usable on the 2380 I know, because Resistherm builds will be in the 1ohm range.

On the M-Class, IPV4 and DNA40 devices, don't you want to keep resistances below around 0.30ohms?

THE WGU CLUB

 

[funkyrudi]

Thanks a lot for this, Rudi!

So you results are not quite as bad as @balazsk showed across the whole range. I think maybe we can discount your ohm meter readings as it seems all over the place compared to the other devices? Sometimes high, sometimes low.

How is it going with your super fancy expensive reader? You needed some new cables for it or something? I forget the name, I just remember being impressed at how much it sells for on eBay

The test leads are called Kelvin probes. This is a four wire probe. The authentic Keithley probes cost about 200$, no joke. The only thing cheap I could find are china probes. I`ll give them a try. But this will take a while. If there is time I will make some - I should have the stuff for it.

 

[TheBloke]

Higher ohm builds are usable on the 2380 I know, because Resistherm builds will be in the 1ohm range.

Yeah. Resistherm actually has lower Ω/m than Titanium, about 25% lower. Here's a comparison I posted earlier:

• Resistance of Resistherm 0.28mm (29G) wire is 5.5Ω/metre
  • This compares to the following wires @ 0.28mm / 29G:
    • Kanthal A1: 29.54Ω/m
    • Ni200: 1.96Ω/m
    • Titanium Gr1: 7.63Ω/m
    • Stainless Steel 317L: 13.15Ω/m
  • Example resistances from a coil of 0.28mm/29G: 10 wraps, 3mm, slightly spaced (0.5mm gap between coils):
    • Ni200: 0.183Ω
    • Resistherm: 0.65Ω
    • Titanium Gr1: 0.895Ω
    • SS 317L: 1.54Ω
    • Kanthal A1: 2.75Ω

My Resistherm coils have been in the 0.30Ω - 0.40Ω range so far, where I have been up to 0.60Ω with Titanium.

Dicodes' recommended TC range is 0.50Ω - 1.50Ω with Resistherm wire. I don't know if they recommend that range because of its resistance specifically, or because of some factor specific to Resistherm. In other words, I don't know if we should assume 0.50Ω - 1.50Ω applies to Titanium as well.

But it's a very generous range so I'm thinking the mod should be solid on any TC build we're likely to use.

In general they state it's better to use higher resistance because the lower the resistance, the more power required to do the same job - that's one of the reasons they recommend Resistherm versus Ni200; the fact that they can profit from it and can't from Titanium is perhaps an unstated factor!

Everything they say re Resistherm more or less applies to Titanium, so - for now at least - I'm assuming it will more or less be a drop-in replacement and vape as well on the device.

On the M-Class, IPV4 and DNA40 devices, don't you want to keep resistances below around 0.30ohms?

No idea. You certainly don't have to - they all support TC up to 1.0Ω, and Yihi even claims in their spec sheet that a "typical" TC resistance is 0.50Ω! Which always makes pbusardo tell us how many hundreds of wraps of Ni200 that would be.

My guess is they state 0.50Ω simply because it's basically halfway between 0.05 and 1.0Ω. (They also say minimum resistance is 0.12Ω or something when in fact it's 0.06Ω - at least on the IPV4.)

I don't know if there's any reason why the Evolv, Yihi and clones-of-Evolv chips would be less accurate or effective at higher ohms. It's possible, if only because they probably tested it only, or at least primarily, with lower ohms.

But as per spec they certainly should work and personally I am expecting them to.

DNA 40 is perhaps the only question mark, because we know they do things in a more complicated way for TC - there' s been a discussion on that recently in the Ti thread, we can't correlate the temperature settings required on DNA 40 devices with Titanium to the TCR calculations it should be doing, and the figures required on other mods. They do something a bit oddly.

So I wouldn't be amazingly surprised to hear a genuine DNA 40 had unexpected results at higher ohms, though I still think it should work. But I would be surprised if the others did.

 

[funkyrudi]

The more NP boxes I get, I`ll go for Titanium, SS and Resitherm. Because many of my favored atomizers like K4, GT2, SquapeR have some static resistance, it`s better to work with higher resistances. And my beloved Rose will never see a Nickel build, but any other wire.

I hope there will be other sources to get NiFe30 wires for a reasonable price soon. Waiting for reply from Zivipf.de

 

[TheBloke]

The more NP boxes I get, I`ll go for Titanium, SS and Resitherm. Because many of my favored atomizers like K4, GT2, SquapeR have some static resistance, it`s better to work with higher resistances. And my beloved Rose will never see a Nickel build, but any other wire.

I hope there will be other sources to get NiFe30 wires for a reasonable price soon. Waiting for reply from Zivipf.de

Ah you contacted Zivipf to ask about Resistherm? Good job! I could do the same for Crazy Wire in the UK, although I do not think they will do so until is more popular.

Yeah you are right that higher resistances is good in many ways - less power required, less effect from SR, less wire needed to build up resistance.

So your Rose has very high SR? I got a Rose (v2 I think) clone the other day, from FastTech, but haven't tried it yet - I dismantled it completely for cleaning in the Ultrasonic and I haven't yet taken the time to put it back together - it looked very complicated compared to most tanks I have not yet taken the time to see what all the bits do!

 

[Quantum Mech]

Higher ohm builds are usable on the 2380 I know, because Resistherm builds will be in the 1ohm range.

On the M-Class, IPV4 and DNA40 devices, don't you want to keep resistances below around 0.30ohms?

THE WGU CLUB

I have just built a Ti 0.37ohm 26awg 3mm x8 wraps in the STM which is running ok on the SX Mini M

The only real issue is its supping juice faster the STM can keep up now

Will have to take the file to the juice wells again on next fill

 

[funkyrudi]

No the Rose doesn`t have high SR - or I haven`t noticed it - but there is not much space inside the ceramic. So it`s very narrow for a Nickel build and changing the wick would be a PITA. But Rose V2 and Heron 1.5 are the yummiest atomizers at low power (15w) I ever tested. Other atomizers need more power/liquid to get the same intensity. ( I have clones ) The air draw was very tight, so I had to widen the holes a bit.

You have to build the Rose - it`s not too complicated

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Yeah. Resistherm actually has lower Ω/m than Titanium, about 25% lower. Here's a comparison I posted earlier:

• Resistance of Resistherm 0.28mm (29G) wire is 5.5Ω/metre
  • This compares to the following wires @ 0.28mm / 29G:
    • Kanthal A1: 29.54Ω/m
    • Ni200: 1.96Ω/m
    • Titanium Gr1: 9.57Ω/m
    • Stainless Steel 317L: 13.15Ω/m
  • Example resistances from a coil of 0.28mm/29G: 10 wraps, 3mm, slightly spaced (0.5mm gap between coils):
    • Ni200: 0.183Ω
    • Resistherm: 0.65Ω
    • Titanium Gr1: 0.90Ω
    • SS 317L: 1.54Ω
    • Kanthal A1: 2.75Ω

My Resistherm coils have been in the 0.30Ω - 0.40Ω range so far, where I have been up to 0.60Ω with Titanium.

Dicodes' recommended TC range is 0.50Ω - 1.50Ω with Resistherm wire. I don't know if they recommend that range because of its resistance specifically, or because of some factor specific to Resistherm. In other words, I don't know if we should assume 0.50Ω - 1.50Ω applies to Titanium as well.

But it's a very generous range so I'm thinking the mod should be solid on any TC build we're likely to use.

In general they state it's better to use higher resistance because the lower the resistance, the more power required to do the same job - that's one of the reasons they recommend Resistherm versus Ni200; the fact that they can profit from it and can't from Titanium is perhaps an unstated factor!

Everything they say re Resistherm more or less applies to Titanium, so - for now at least - I'm assuming it will more or less be a drop-in replacement and vape as well on the device.



No idea. You certainly don't have to - they all support TC up to 1.0Ω, and Yihi even claims in their spec sheet that a "typical" TC resistance is 0.50Ω! Which always makes pbusardo tell us how many hundreds of wraps of Ni200 that would be.

My guess is they state 0.50Ω simply because it's basically halfway between 0.05 and 1.0Ω. (They also say minimum resistance is 0.12Ω or something when in fact it's 0.06Ω - at least on the IPV4.)

I don't know if there's any reason why the Evolv, Yihi and clones-of-Evolv chips would be less accurate or effective at higher ohms. It's possible, if only because they probably only tested it only with lower ohms.

But as per spec they certainly should work and personally I am expecting them to.

DNA 40 is perhaps the only question mark, because we know they do things in a more complicated way for TC - there' s been a discussion on that recently in the Ti thread, we can't correlate the temperature settings required on DNA 40 devices with Titanium to the TCR calculations it should be doing, and the figures required on other mods. They do something a bit oddly.

So I wouldn't be amazingly surprised to hear a genuine DNA 40 had unexpected results at higher ohms, though I still think it should work. But I would be surprised if the others did.

yihiu recommend 0.065 as the optimum for reasons that escape me. There are some zealots who insist that it works better at ultra low resistances like this but I see no difference from 0.07 up to 0.2ish which is as high as I have managed to get with Ni...

 

[dems86]

Just ordered some 26 and 24 gauge titanium from Unkamen Supplies

This will be my first go at Ti

Excited



THE WGU CLUB

 

[druckle]

Just ordered some 26 and 24 gauge titanium from Unkamen Supplies

This will be my first go at Ti

Excited



THE WGU CLUB

I'll bet you'll LIKE it. I know it's the only thing i want to use for any coil now days.

Duane

 

[Arthur]

Just ordered some 26 and 24 gauge titanium from Unkamen Supplies

This will be my first go at Ti

Excited



THE WGU CLUB

I'm right behind you on the Ti. I want to see how it does in the FeV. Btw, when does your dicodes wire come in? Eager to see your thoughts on it.

 

[funkyrudi]

Ah you contacted Zivipf to ask about Resistherm? Good job! I could do the same for Crazy Wire in the UK, although I do not think they will do so until is more popular.

Thomas from Zivipf wrote he will do his best.
I asked him for NiFe30 wires from Resitherm and Kanthal and thicker than 0,28mm too

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Ah you contacted Zivipf to ask about Resistherm? Good job! I could do the same for Crazy Wire in the UK, although I do not think they will do so until is more popular.

Yeah you are right that higher resistances is good in many ways - less power required, less effect from SR, less wire needed to build up resistance.

So your Rose has very high SR? I got a Rose (v2 I think) clone the other day, from FastTech, but haven't tried it yet - I dismantled it completely for cleaning in the Ultrasonic and I haven't yet taken the time to put it back together - it looked very complicated compared to most tanks I have not yet taken the time to see what all the bits do!

Hi Tom,

do you have any idea when Crazy Wire will stock some sensible Ti guages? I know you were in contact with them a while ago..

 

[TheBloke]

Hi Tom,

do you have any idea when Crazy Wire will stock some sensible Ti guages? I know you were in contact with them a while ago..

I would hope "any day now"

On May 22nd he answered me to say they would now start stocking it, and that it would take "a couple of weeks" to get in. Friday just gone was the two week mark, so maybe this week if they're on schedule.

They just put on some thicker gauge Ni200 that they first announced at the same time as announcing the thinner Ti, so I am sure the Ti is next.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Ok thats great. I was going to snag some 26g from Zivipf but I'll wait in that case!
Im hoping my Dicodes will get back to Greek Mods tomorrow or so...I still cant believe I ordered a fixed 510 device...arrrrggghhh...Oh well! Just got my new Squape Rs from cloud9 so that will keep me happy for 10 minutes...lol!! It is beautiful btw!! Im afraid I have developed a penchant for authentic tanks (althogh the taifun clone and more recently infinite KF lite+ are absolutely spot on)...oh dear...

 

[TheBloke]

Yeah after my Aqua SE (first authentic) I've just ordered my second (Elprinz) - I must say there's a lot to be said for everything just being right. Especially the screws. The screws is the one thing the clones never seem to get right. The screws on my Aqua SE are beautiful, huge chunky things.

I've now reached the point where I have so many RTA clones (maybe 30 now) that I have more than I will ever need. So I will stop buying clones and for every 4-5 clones I would have bought, buy one authentic.

The Squape definitely looks like a great one to get authentic. which decks did you get? I saw it on Greek Mods and was surprised it only came with one deck, did you have to order extra decks or did it come with some?

PS. I assume you've purchased from Crazy Wire before? If not, we can both get 15% discount for life using their Refer a Friend scheme.