Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[Str8vision]

When transferring flavor from ethanol to PG it's always a good idea to give the flavor molecules adequate time to fully "meld" with the new carrier base before performing the "final" reduction. A day or two should be sufficient.

If/when I'm going to transfer the flavor over to PG, I first reduce the ethanol by 75% before doing so. After reduction I allow the condensed extract to sit undisturbed for a week or two (sealed jar) allowing time for any oils to coalesce before performing the "final" filtering. If the extract produced a significant amount of oil (very rare) I'll let it sit for up to 30 days before filtering in order to remove as much oil as possible. Once reduced and filtered I then add an equal amount of PG to the condensed extract and mix thoroughly. After letting the PG/Ethanol mixture sit for a couple of days I remove the lid, fix a tented coffee filter over the mouth of the container and place the extract in front of a fan to evaporate most* of the remaining ethanol off.


* You can't evaporate -all- the ethanol off because much of it was actually water, explanation follows and I invite conversation/debate/discussion on the subject;

190 proof PGA is actually 95 to 96% Ethanol and 4 to 5% water. Ethanol, PG and VG are all hygroscopic, they readily draw moisture from the surrounding air and will absorb it. Once absorbed the water no longer exists in a free state (it's locked in solution) and is near impossible to remove. If for an extraction I used 200ml of 190 proof PGA then I actually started out with 192ml of Ethanol and at least 8ml of water. During the extraction process the Ethanol will leech and absorb any moisture contained in the tobacco further boosting the extract's total water content. Once freeze filtering is complete, factoring in for tobacco and filtering losses I likely have around 150ml of extract remaining (143ml Ethanol and 7ml of water). If I open-air reduce the 150ml of extract down to 40ml, more than 7ml (18%) of the remaining extract will actually be water. This is because Ethanol is highly volatile and readily evaporates at room temperature but water that is absorbed (locked in solution) doesn't easily evaporate. (Also note that while exposed to open air for evaporation the Ethanol was free to draw/absorb addition moisture from it.) To the 40ml of reduced extract I now add 40ml of PG, mix the two thoroughly and let sit for a day or two. I then try to open-air evaporate the remaining Ethanol off but find I can't reduce the 80ml of blended extract down to 40ml, reduction seems to stop at around 50ml. Chances are most of the Ethanol -has- evaporated off but the water it contained is now absorbed (locked up) in the PG. (Also note that while exposed to open air for evaporation the PG was free to draw/absorb addition moisture from it.) The remaining ~50ml of concentrated PG based tobacco extract is actually 40ml of PG and perhaps ~10 ml of dissolved (absorbed) water that's locked in solution.

 

[Brad P]

Str8,
I follow your logic and reasoning completely!
Since this is my first ethanol extraction, I'm starting to think that it might be best if I stick to the established protocols. We know you have had success with it. There will be plenty of time for me to deviate and experiment with this process on future extractions that I plan to do.
Thanks to you and to everyone for your help on this!
It is a little surprising to realize that >1/5th of the extract is actually water! (I realize that the % drops dramatically when mixed into a finished juice) Do suppose that a pure PGA extract concentrate would have a longer shelf life than one that was converted to a PG/water?
In the past I have often noticed condensation accumulating on the dome of my Magma RDA. This may be moisture that has seeped into my pg&vg; even with my pg only extractions.

 

[Str8vision]

.....Do suppose that a pure PGA extract concentrate would have a longer shelf life than one that was converted to a PG/water?.....

You end up with 18 to 20% water content either way so I don't think it makes a difference. Ethanol and PG are both great bases for extended shelf life of extracts, each has it's pros and cons.

I usually leave my concentrated extracts Ethanol based. When I mix them into NET I allow open-air, fan assisted evaporation for a day to drive off most of the Ethanol. The mixed NET will end up with a water content of around 2% which is ideal. A water content between 2 and 5% enhances the tobacco flavor.

 

[Brad P]

OK, I'm back to let you all know how I finished this up.

I went ahead and air+fan evaporated my PGA down to about 32ml total volume. This was eaisier and faster than I thought it would be. I let this sit for a few days. There was more stuff that settled out of the solution. I gave it a final filtration and added ~30ml of PG and mixed. I covered the jar with filter paper and let it sit for two days. I was getting ready to set up the fan to finish evaporating off the remaining PGA, and I spilled the whole darn thing!!!

Some peoples kids.... I can't take me anywhere...

Anyway, I was able to salvage some of it! After evaporating off as much of the PGA as I could, I ended up with about ~16ml of finished extract. Certinally enough to give me an idea of how this process works.
I mixed up a small sample @ 8% flavor. Shows a lot of promise! I know it is too young to really tell. I think it will be all that I expected. I went ahead and mixed up another larger batch of juice so it could go ahead and start ageing. I bumped the flavor up to 11% . I am going to try to be patient and give it another week or so to develop and I will report back again.

 

[Str8vision]

I was getting ready to set up the fan to finish evaporating off the remaining PGA, and I spilled the whole darn thing!!!

Ouch

 

[Brad P]

Str8vision,

Yea, needless to say a little dissapointing. But not a total loss! I have more than 1/2 oz. of that tobacco left and I will try it again. Thanks again for your help on my filtertration process. I have found some 642 grade, Ahlstrom, 2 micron filters at a reasonable price and I will probably pick some up in the near future. I'm thinking 2 microns will be a reasonable degree of filtration without solwing things down to a grinding halt. Do you agree? I will be using these for both PGA and PG extractions.

 

[Brad P]

kbriggs & Boxter,

Thanks for your encouragement and input. I wanted to let you know that I picked up a digital scale. It measures to .01g.. I really like it! It really simpilifies things. I would recomend this to anyone who might be considering moving from volumeteric to weight measurements.

I have also gotten settled in with the new "Juice Calculator" software that I downloaded. I would recomend this as well. I downloaded the free recepie file w/ ingredients, and it took me a while to figure out how to set up a seperate "juice file" for my NETS. (recepies & ingredients) It's easy to use, after you get it set up, and gives me far more options than the other calculator I was using. Far better options for taking notes.

 

[Str8vision]

.........I'm thinking 2 microns will be a reasonable degree of filtration without solwing things down to a grinding halt. Do you agree? I will be using these for both PGA and PG extractions.

Yep, 2 microns provides a great balance between flavor and performance.

PGA will gravity flow through a 2 micron filter quickly. It has a low viscosity even at low temperatures so can be filtered at -20F or at 100F.

PG has a moderately high viscosity that changes with temperature. The colder it is the thicker it gets, conversely, the warmer it is the thinner it becomes. Below 65F the viscosity of PG is to high for gravity filtering, it just gets too thick. At 75F PG will gravity filter through a 2 micron filter at a slow pace (drip), 80ml can take around 16 hours to filter. Increase the ambient temperature and the time required for filtering decreases accordingly.

 

[Brad P]

Good! Then I will pick up some of those 2 nicron filters. Thanks.

I recently filtered a PG batch that I had going. I found that if I positioned a desk lamp directly over my funnel, the heat from a 60 watt incondesant bulb was enough to speed the process up nicely...

 

[LongDraw]

Hi everybody, thanks for a great thread/read.

So I had tried a pg extraction a few years back which worked pretty well. Right now wanting something else to play with and had read this thread a bit ago, so reread it and thought i'd give it a try with the pga.

So the steps on the first page is what i'll follow. Only question i had is on page 50 people start talking about reducing before they freeze.

Wasn't clear if this proved to be better at reducing gunk but still keeping flavor.

So anybody know, should I try the original, freeze then reduce, or the other way, reduce then freeze.

Thank you,

 

[Str8vision]

Hi LongDraw, pre or post reduction is a very good question. I'd recommend that you freeze filter first then reduce, you'll lose less extract to filter absorption that way.

Reduction before freeze filtering is better suited for large volume extractions. I'm currently performing large batch extractions of 2 to 4 ounces of tobacco using 350 to 700ml of Ethanol for each individual extraction. For extractions involving this much solvent reduction is best performed before fractional freezing. Reduction before freeze filtering does remove more gunk but at the cost of losing concentrated extract (rather than diluted extract) to the filter.

 

[LongDraw]

Hi LongDraw, pre or post reduction is a very good question. I'd recommend that you freeze filter first then reduce, you'll lose less extract to filter absorption that way.

Reduction before freeze filtering is better suited for large volume extractions. I'm currently performing large batch extractions of 2 to 4 ounces of tobacco using 350 to 700ml of Ethanol for each individual extraction. For extractions involving this much solvent reduction is best performed before fractional freezing. Reduction before freeze filtering does remove more gunk but at the cost of losing concentrated extract (rather than diluted extract) to the filter.

Awesome, thanks Str8! I plan on just doing small batches so I'll do like suggested and reduce after freezing. I primarily vape unflavored, but when I do want a flavor i like tobaccos.

Thanks again! hopefully the rest of my stuff will come in this week so I can give it a try over the weekend.

 

[Brad P]

Hello Long Draw, I have been going through and reading some of the older threads for the last few days and noticed some of your posts in the "Slow Cooker extraction of tobacco & tea" thread started by Scarf-Ace. Good to see you here!

Well, I have given my first PGA (Heated ethanol extract) a week or so to age a little after mixing it into a finished juice. In retrospect, I probably should have used a tobacco that I was already familiar with so I could make a better comparison in the different extraction processes. But I didn't. Perhaps on the next batch I will go back and try the PGA method on a tobacco that I have done in the past using heated PG.

I have heard from many sources in this forum that the American Spirit-organic made a decent NET.
I tried it & I really like it. It does make a good N.E.T. IMO! The two main factors that I was courious about this time around were, 1. How would it affect the flavor? and, 2. Would it vape cleaner!? Again, I can't compare this to a PG extraction of the same tobacco, but I am very happy with the flavor this process yielded! As for the "gunk factor", it is eaisily the cleanest of the 10 or more NETs that I have made so far. This was using "coffee filter" filtration only! (got better filters on the way...) I think this method is a real HIT!

I am anxious to start a few more batches! Some for comparison with favorites from the past, and some new stuff to expand my horizons.

Thanks everyone for your help! I'll keep watching ya...

 

[LongDraw]

So over the weekend my tobaccos still hadn't come so I picked up some american spirit perique and organic pouches. Heated, coffee filter strained, freezed, coffe filter strained and then a 1.1 micron filter. Both are now in their jars with lids off, a coffee filter covering the top, and at times a fan blowing to try and help with the reduction....AND BOY is it slow going.

I figure the one has been sitting 3ish days and the other 2ish, i'd be luck if the first has reduced by 7%, the other by 2% or so. How long does it usually take?

I read earlier in the thread about using an oven, but would like to avoid in case of risk as well as if it affects flavor with further heat.

I do think, since I will still have quite a bit left once it reduces by 70ish% i might do another micron filter. I got lucky and got a 100 pack of the 1.1 micron for 23 dollars so they will last quite a bit of time.

EDIT: Did forget to add this is a MUCH EASIER process then when I tried with pg. Filtering is very quick either with coffee filters or the micron. Also, I though the pga looked fairly clean after the first coffe filter after heating, I was amazed at how much fell out after freezing. Pretty amazing, KUDOS to Str8

 

[Brad P]

Both are now in their jars with lids off, a coffee filter covering the top, and at times a fan blowing to try and help with the reduction....AND BOY is it slow going.

Hi LongDraw, I did my first PGA extraction just a few weeks ago (in fact Am. Spirit-org. also) and I was actually kind of surprised at how fast it evaporated off and reduced. The main differance I see is that I did not use anything to cover the top of the jar while it was reducing. I figured that if a tiny bit of dust or anything may happen to fall in there, I was going to be filtering it again and it will get pulled out then. The warmer the better. It was probably 78-80 degreees or so in the room at the time. I also had it set up in a way that my fan would cause a little bit of turbulance into, and over the top of my jar. Perhaps the air exchange is an important factor.

There are many here with a lot more expertice in this, but thats my two cents worth! Hope it helps!

p.s. let us know if that works and how you like the final product.

 

[LongDraw]

Hi LongDraw, I did my first PGA extraction just a few weeks ago (in fact Am. Spirit-org. also) and I was actually kind of surprised at how fast it evaporated off and reduced. The main differance I see is that I did not use anything to cover the top of the jar while it was reducing. I figured that if a tiny bit of dust or anything may happen to fall in there, I was going to be filtering it again and it will get pulled out then. The warmer the better. It was probably 78-80 degreees or so in the room at the time. I also had it set up in a way that my fan would cause a little bit of turbulance into, and over the top of my jar. Perhaps the air exchange is an important factor.

There are many here with a lot more expertice in this, but thats my two cents worth! Hope it helps!

p.s. let us know if that works and how you like the final product.

Thanks for tip Brad. Think tomorrow morning I will take the coffee filters off to see if that helps, and maybe in the evening run the fan over top as well. Def worth a try because at this rate it seriously could be weeks.

EDIT: Brad, have you mixed up the american spirit? If you have what did you think of it. I have higher hopes for the perique, wants also the light brown package but they didn't have it, and picked the light blue package out of the rest they had.

 

[Brad P]

EDIT: Brad, have you mixed up the american spirit? If you have what did you think of it.

Yes I have. I like it really well! Even better than I expected.

My first few extractions (3+ yrs. ago) were made from whole leaf tobacco. I got 1/4 lb. ea. of some organic flu-cured Virginia and some Burly, and they threw in some fronto leaves and mixed scrap leaves for free. I blended the Va+ burly then extracted it as well as doing straight extractions of the variatals themselves and blending after extracted. I had a lot of fun with it. At this point I was still smoking and Vaping at the same time. I was looking for a more realistic tobacco flavor than what I was finding in the synthetic flavors. These first few extracts made a huge differance and I was able to quit cigarettes for about 1 1/2 yrs. It has now been a little more than a month since my last cig., and I am back to Vaping ONLY!
That is why I chose the Am. Spirit org. . I was once again looking for an "All Day Vape" that was a little closer to a cigarette flavor. This fits that bill perfectly. It is richer, smoother, and more complex than any of the whole leaf combos that I was able to come up with blending my own.
The A.S. organic is good, well balanced, straight tobacco flavor. No bells or whistles; but a solid ADV.

I know what you are saying about the Perique. Sounds good to me too. I have some other Perique blends on hand and they are really good!

 

[Str8vision]

.......Both are now in their jars with lids off, a coffee filter covering the top, and at times a fan blowing to try and help with the reduction....AND BOY is it slow going.........

I've encountered this same problem a few times but only when reducing large volume extracts prior to freeze filtering them. Even after 10 hours (overnight) the extracts hadn't reduced at all. On close inspection I found the extract(s) contained enough oil that a light skim had formed on the surface, this skim sealed the extract well enough to prevent evaporation. I ended up transferring the oily extract into a glass baking dish (so that the exposed surface area was far greater) and used a fan blowing across the top. Much like Brad P said, the fan caused a slight disturbance on the surface of the extract. The baking dish made it significantly more difficult to gauge volume but the reduction only took a few hours and that was on 450ml of extract.

 

[Brad P]

.....On close inspection I found the extract(s) contained enough oil that a light skim had formed on the surface, this skim sealed the extract well enough to prevent evaporation......

You clever devil, you....

Come to think of it, there was a slight film of oil floating on the top of mine too. Enough air flow might have blown the oil slick over to one side of the jar.

 

[LongDraw]

Thanks Str8 and Brad. Never would have thought of that. Think today i'll take the coffee filters off and give them a gentle mix with a rod see if I can remove any film covering the tops, this evening when I can watch a little close will also add he fan.