NET: Best extraction method to minimise coil gunk

[funkymeatball]

Hi all,

I did my first NET recently (also posted this in the newbie section).

I simply covered American spirit rolling tobacco with zero nic PG/VG/H2O 60/30/10 base.
Already after a day at room temperature the extract had a pretty dark brown colour.
So I removed about 10 ml and filtered it with a syringe through cotton.
Then I centrifuged it in the lab for 15 min at someting like 4000g.
Finally I passed it through a 0.22 µm syringe sterile filter.
So I can be sure that there were no particles larger than 0.22 µm left.
I addeed the extract to my 12 mg/ml PG/VG/H2O 60/30/10 base at about 20%.
Although the taste is really nice gunk appears pretty fast.
For my second test I used pure PG with 10% ethanol.
Results are still pending. ;-)

I already browsed through this forum for quite some time.
There are so many options:
* Pure PG, pure VG, PG/VG, PG with ethanol, pure ethanol
* Room temperature, heating, fridge, freezer

Is there any consensus what extraction method yields good flavour whith minimal coil gunk?

Thanks for your opinions in advance!

Peace

 

[marc42]

I vape Diy and House of liquid nets and find the diy to only be marginally worse for gunking on the whole.
I am also new to diy and presently use a very crude filter system.. a tea bag.
my extraction is also simple , just gently pan fry in pg until the pg darkens and wafts of vapour begin to appear [taking on and off heat a few times until smell is good]
then add the mix to a jar and leave to mature.
generally i get around 2.5cc of vaping on my kayfun before needing to change wick and scrub the coil.
the best net i have for clean vaping is the House of liquid puros dark, this lasts around 4-5 cc.

For me the flavour and the fun of mixing up various tobacco blend outweighs the inconvenience of a regular rewick.

 

[Str8vision]

Hi all,

I did my first NET recently (also posted this in the newbie section).

I simply covered American spirit rolling tobacco with zero nic PG/VG/H2O 60/30/10 base.
Already after a day at room temperature the eaxtract had a pretty dark brown colour.
So I removed about 10 ml and filtered it with a syringe through cotton.
Then I centrifuged it in the lab for 15 min at someting like 4000g.
Finally I passed it through a 0.22 µm syringe sterile filter.
So I can be sure that there were no particles larger than 0.22 µm left.
I addeed the extract to my 12 mg/ml PG/VG/H2O 60/30/10 base at about 20%.
Although the taste is really nice gunk appears pretty fast.
For my second test I used pure PG with 10% ethanol.
Results are still pending. ;-)

I already browsed through this forum for quite some time.
There are so many options:
* Pure PG, pure VG, PG/VG, PG with ethanol, pure ethanol
* Room temperature, heating, fridge, freezer

Is there any consensus what extraction method yields good flavour whith minimal coil gunk?

Thanks for your opinions in advance!

Peace

I've performed hot and cold extractions using VG, PG, PGA, purified water and various mixtures of these as the extraction solvent in tobacco macerations. Pure PGA provides the cleanest but only after you've remove the oils it extracts. All solvents/methods produce an extract that will gunk coils/wicks faster than synthetic flavorings and while filtration mitigates this to an extent it doesn't cure the effect entirely. The benefits of filtration seem to taper off at around 2 micron retention, higher levels of filtration provide only marginal improvement in performance while simultaneously reducing flavor strength.

The best tasting and performing extract I've been able to achieve involves running concurrent cold PGA/water and hot PG/water extractions that are ultimately combined, filtered and then reduced by evaporating off all the PGA and water yielding a highly concentrated extract that I use at < 10%.

 

[funkymeatball]

So far I just tried House of liquid Virginia, Cigarillos and Puros (not dark).
Virginia is the worst on coils and wick followed by Puros and Cigarillos.
Taste is great with all of the though.
Will give the Puros dark a try...
Thanks for the tip!

I don't mind a rewick, just not twice a day ;-)

 

[funkymeatball]

I've performed hot and cold extractions using VG, PG, PGA, purified water and various mixtures of these as the extraction solvent in tobacco macerations. Pure PGA provides the cleanest but only after you've remove the oils it extracts. All solvents/methods produce an extract that will gunk coils/wicks faster than synthetic flavorings and while filtration mitigates this to an extent it doesn't cure the effect entirely. The benefits of filtration seem to taper off at around 2 micron retention, higher levels of filtration provide only marginal improvement in performance while simultaneously reducing flavor strength.

The best tasting and performing extract I've been able to achieve involves running concurrent cold PGA/water and hot PG/water extractions that are ultimately combined, filtered and then reduced by evaporating off all the PGA and water yielding a highly concentrated extract that I use at < 10%.

Thanks for all the information!

Sorry, some more questions ;-)

What percentages are you using for PGA/water and PG/water?
How long do you perfom the extractions?
What temperature do you use for the extractions?

Do you perfrom pure PGA extraction at room temperature?
Pure PGA is 96% or absolute ethanol?
How do you remove the oils from pure PGA extracts? Freezer and filtration?

 

[marc42]

So far I just tried House of liquid Virginia, Cigarillos and Puros (not dark).
Virginia is the worst on coils and wick followed by Puros and Cigarillos.
Taste is great with all of the though.
Will give the Puros dark a try...
Thanks for the tip!

I don't mind a rewick, just not twice a day ;-)

Shame HOL seem to have given up on their Cellar range for the time being, some interesting flavours there too.[the puros dark is a lovely vape, recommend it!]
I have done extractions of around 14 tobbaccos thus far , and have quite a nice palette of flavour to work with.

as for rewicking frequency it partly depends on how you vape , power technique and whether you can put down your tasty juice and rest the coil or not,

 

[Str8vision]

Thanks for all ther information!

Sorry, some more questions ;-)

What percentages are you using for PGA/water and PG/water?
How long do you perfom the extractions?
What temperature do you use for the extractions?

Do you perfrom pure PGA extraction at room temperature?
Pure PGA is 96% or absolute ethanol?
How do you remove the oils from pure PGA extracts? Freezer and filtration?

Remember that when it comes to vaping, taste is very subjective, what is just right for me might taste terrible to someone else. Always "tweak" your process to suit your individual taste preference.

My PGA/Water extractions use 90% PGA and 10% purified (distilled/de-mineralized), water. Not distilled "drinking" water as that has minerals added back to it for flavor. The PGA I use claims to be 96% alcohol. I process PGA/water extractions at room temperature for around 72 hours give or take depending on the ambient temp. I process pure PGA extractions (no water), for the same period of time, about 72 hours at room temp.

I remove the oil PGA extracts by first separating the tobacco and solvent using an unbleached coffee filter. I mix the yield of a PGA/water extract with the yield of a concurrently processed heat assisted PG/water extract, blend the two thoroughly and gently heat the uncovered mixture to 120 -140F (49 - 60C), until most of the PGA and water has evaporated off. I then allow the condensed extract to sit at room temperature, uncovered and undisturbed for 2 - 3 days until the oils coalesce forming a skim that clings to the sides of the jar. I gently pour the extract through "filter felt" at least twice using clean/dry felt and a clean catch container each time. The sticky oils cling "tenaciously" to the felt while allowing the extract to filter into the catch container. Let the extract sit undisturbed for another day or two before final filtering through 1 - 2.5 micron (µm), filter paper and you're done.

I currently use 70% PG and 30% purified water for heat assisted extractions. I process them at 140 - 150F (60 - 65C), in a lightly sealed canning jar for between 48 - 72 hours depending on the specific tobacco in play. I use in-process sampling (drawing a few drops, mixing and tasting), to determine when the flavor extraction is complete. Using pure PG (no water), for a heat assisted extraction may require a little more processing time for the flavor to reach its peak, 72 - 96 hours at 140 - 150F.

Long term room temperature PG/VG based tobacco extractions should be allowed to steep for 4 - 8 weeks depending on the average ambient temp. This method produces wonderful flavor and is the simplest of the extraction processes albeit the patience required is too overwhelming for most home extractors to endure.

 

[funkymeatball]

Thanks a lot Str8vision for the detailed information!!

I do not have a possibility to perform a 70% PG and 30% purified water extraction at 60 - 65C.
Will a couple of weeks at room temperature give a similar result?

 

[funkymeatball]

Long term room temperature PG/VG based tobacco extractions should be allowed to steep for 4 - 8 weeks depending on the average ambient temp. This method produces wonderful flavor and is the simplest of the extraction processes albeit the patience required is too overwhelming for most home extractors to endure.

Sorry, do you mean to perform the room temperature extraction with PG/VG for 4-8 weeks or to steep the filtered extract or blended liquid for 4-8 weeks?
As you already will have noticed, english is not my native language.....

 

[Bunnykiller]

we steep the tobacco for 4 - 8 weeks, filter it, then we age it...
steeping is the act of soaking the tobacco, aging is the process of allowing the filtered liquid to develope its flavors.

 

[funkymeatball]

we steep the tobacco for 4 - 8 weeks, filter it, then we age it...
steeping is the act of soaking the tobacco, aging is the process of allowing the filtered liquid to develope its flavors.

Thanks for the clarification! ;-)

 

[Str8vision]

Thanks a lot Str8vision for the detailed information!!

I do not have a possibility to perform a 70% PG and 30% purified water extraction at 60 - 65C.
Will a couple of weeks at room temperature give a similar result?

A room temperature soak in 100% PG will need 4 - 8 weeks depending on the ambient temp and tobacco used. The warmer the environment, the quicker the extraction. I Haven't performed a room temp extraction using a blend of PG and purified water for the solvent, could be a little faster developing than pure PG. If you process a room temp PG/water extraction, I would start in-process sampling at two weeks in and take a sample every week thereafter until complete.

 

[Str8vision]

Sorry, do you mean to perform the room temperature extraction with PG/VG for 4-8 weeks or to steep the filtered extract or blended liquid for 4-8 weeks?
As you already will have noticed, english is not my native language.....

Many people in the vaping community often misuse the term "steep" to describe the process of "aging" a mixed e-liquid in order to diffuse the individual flavors used. For my post, the term steep refers to soaking the tobacco in solvent for a given period of time in order to extract flavor. After extraction, filtering and mixing many people like to age their NET before use in order to achieve optimum flavor. Some NETs need to be aged before use while others taste just fine right after mixing, shake-N-vape.

 

[funkymeatball]

The best tasting and performing extract I've been able to achieve involves running concurrent cold PGA/water and hot PG/water extractions that are ultimately combined, filtered and then reduced by evaporating off all the PGA and water yielding a highly concentrated extract that I use at < 10%.

Did you try PG/PGA mixtures for extraction?

 

[Str8vision]

PGA extracts the brighter notes while PG and VG tends to leech the deeper earthy flavors from tobacco. In an attempt to combine the attributes of PGA and PG, I did perform several extractions using a PG/PGA blended solvent. All were conducted at room temperature (cold), for 4 - 5 weeks. While the flavor from those extractions was outstanding the performance (gunk factor), was not. Even at low percentages I no longer use PGA in long term tobacco extractions. I now run concurrent, but separate, extractions and simply mix the yields together before filtering.

 

[funkymeatball]

PGA extracts the brighter notes while PG and VG tends to leech the deeper earthy flavors from tobacco. In an attempt to combine the attributes of PGA and PG, I did perform several extractions using a PG/PGA blended solvent. All were conducted at room temperature (cold), for 4 - 5 weeks. While the flavor from those extractions was outstanding the performance (gunk factor), was not. Even at low percentages I no longer use PGA in long term tobacco extractions. I now run concurrent, but separate, extractions and simply mix the yields together before filtering.

Thanks once more!

Do you use equal amounts of tobacco for your cold PGA/water and hot PG/water extractions before mixing them?

 

[Str8vision]

Thanks once more!

Do you use equal amounts of tobacco for your cold PGA/water and hot PG/water extractions before mixing them?

On average I have found 2 parts PGA/Water extract to 1 part PG/Water extract to be "my" sweet spot for flavor but am still experimenting with various ratios in relation to the specific tobacco type/blend in play.

No matter what solvent I'm using I always use just enough to cover the tobacco and then add about 10 - 15% extra for absorption.

 

[ayopassthat]

Another option is to use less concentrate in your liquid. The taste is still there and I have gotten used to it after a little while

 

[funkymeatball]

Another option is to use less concentrate in your liquid. The taste is still there and I have gotten used to it after a little while

I will definitely try to use less concentrate. I have the impression that the longer I vape the less concentrated the flavours are that I like.
There are some liquids I really liked at the beginning of my vaping career ;-) that I now find close to disgusting.

 

[funkymeatball]

Long term room temperature PG/VG based tobacco extractions should be allowed to steep for 4 - 8 weeks depending on the average ambient temp. This method produces wonderful flavor and is the simplest of the extraction processes albeit the patience required is too overwhelming for most home extractors to endure.

Do you have the impression that while the flavour gets more intense over the weeks also the "gunk factor" ;-) increases or does the "gunk factor" reach a plateau earlier?