You have to be careful though. There are other other chemicals that companies use in place of diacetyl (experts please chime in) I don't know the names, that are just as harmful!
Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!
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You have to be careful though. There are other other chemicals that companies use in place of diacetyl (experts please chime in) I don't know the names, that are just as harmful!
I was hoping you would.
Ok, easy enough to do. I just need some help on what it should be called.
Thanks Kushka and I am with you on that. I see artificial flavors and I say to myself....huh! and to my earlier post about PA please let me be clear..I do and have used PA flavors..the vanilla bean ice cream with the right amount of toasted marshmallow and malted milk makes a crusty kind of caramelized burnish type flavor....absolutely incredible if mixed just right. My only concern was why I need to let the bottles sit for a few days with caps off to get that perfumy smell to go away? although not a question for ya cause you don't smell it.
Call it "Don't pizz off nicotine addicted women"? I kid, I kid lol
I would say to name the social group something to do with Flavorings. Y'all know the FDA probably comes onto ECF and prowls around just for more ammunition. If you call it a flavorings discussion group, then ECF won't get their panties in a bunch over it. It will be fairly well disguised for a logical discussion.
LOL @ Bovinia. Ain't that the truth!
Agreed w/ Seabrook. Anyone with name suggestion, PM me so that it doesn't clog up the thread! Thanks
Wow, this is really concerning. I looked at the esmoke web site and I'm tempted to order from them (if I can vape batched and lab tested juice then that seems like the safest bet), they only offer 30ml bottles. has anyone tried their juices? Are they any good as far as flavor? I just don't want to pay for a bunch of horrible tasting juice if I can avoid it.
Okay so let's say someone wants to be safer until they've done more investigation/research into this matter.
My advice would be to DIY. Until you know how to DIY, just buy unflavored ejuice and add flavoring to it. It's just that simple. I don't know about the yumminess of any other flavorings except Capellas since that's all I use (for safety reasons).
The following flavors I've tried that you can use only one bottle of flavoring on and are really something to write home about are: Bubblegum, Apple Pie, Orange Creamsicle, Dutch Chocolate Mint, Toasted Almond, Vanilla Custard, Cool Mint and Cinnamon Danish Swirl. And my favorite is Chocolate Coconut Almond that tastes just like an Almond Joy candy bar. With these flavors, you don't have to mix several different bottles. Its' already done for you in the one bottle. If you want to try two flavors, mix 6 drops of New York Cheesecake with 4 drops of Raspberry (another fave of mine) and repeat until you get the strength you like. Or vanilla custard with Blueberry. The DIY juices taste so much better than commercially blended. Really.
My advice would be to DIY. Until you know how to DIY, just buy unflavored ejuice and add flavoring to it. It's just that simple. I don't know about the yumminess of any other flavorings except Capellas since that's all I use (for safety reasons).
The following flavors I've tried that you can use only one bottle of flavoring on and are really something to write home about are: Bubblegum, Apple Pie, Orange Creamsicle, Dutch Chocolate Mint, Toasted Almond, Vanilla Custard, Cool Mint and Cinnamon Danish Swirl. And my favorite is Chocolate Coconut Almond that tastes just like an Almond Joy candy bar. With these flavors, you don't have to mix several different bottles. Its' already done for you in the one bottle. If you want to try two flavors, mix 6 drops of New York Cheesecake with 4 drops of Raspberry (another fave of mine) and repeat until you get the strength you like. Or vanilla custard with Blueberry. The DIY juices taste so much better than commercially blended. Really.
As the OP of the thread that got locked, I'd like to say that I definitely don't think the suppliers dealt with the issue as professionally as I would have hoped, yet I do take responsibility for posting specifically to their forum in a way that seemed as though was singling them out. If I could do it over again, I simply would have posted this one and not mentioned any names. My mistake.
My goal is NOT to turn people against any particular vendor or hurt anyone's business. I simply want to encourage vapers to ask suppliers to make ingredient lists more available, and to avoid using a chemical that has caused serious harm to people. If suppliers deny this request, that's their decision and I respect it. I don't think it makes them "bad". It just means my needs may be better met elsewhere.
The most important thing to me is that vapers do their research and become more educated about what we're inhaling. Ultimately, our health is our responsibility.
My goal is NOT to turn people against any particular vendor or hurt anyone's business. I simply want to encourage vapers to ask suppliers to make ingredient lists more available, and to avoid using a chemical that has caused serious harm to people. If suppliers deny this request, that's their decision and I respect it. I don't think it makes them "bad". It just means my needs may be better met elsewhere.
The most important thing to me is that vapers do their research and become more educated about what we're inhaling. Ultimately, our health is our responsibility.
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I just did the math on this, after looking at the studies.
anecdotal number crunching:
Based on Flavourart's disclosure of diacetyl content, you would have to vape 5ml of e-juice, to have taken in .225 ppm (parts per million) of diacetyl- and please note that is not inhaled on every breath.
The conditions in the popcorn factories, had a low end of 20 ppm and a high end of 100 ppm. At 20ppm that is 88 times less than the workers were exposed to. At 100 ppm it is 440 times less.
In the popcorn factory, every breath was loaded with diacetyl concentrated at 20 ppm minimum. We don't vape every breath.
So based on this- I think you can assume that by the time you develop lung disease from vaping diacetyl containing juice- you'll be around 500 years old... if it happens at all.
I'm posting this, because having been alarmed by the recent postings, I almost throttled my juice suppliers by going postal. But before I go postal- I usually check to see if I'm justified.
Based on what I'm seeing, this *scandal* is hyperbole. And companies that use Flavourart are not being irresponsible nor malicious.
The fact that we *know* the levels of this chemical- gives us a choice.
If you do not want the (cough) "risk" don't vape the juice.
I am happy to vape Flavourart. It's going out of the house that scares me. Go figure.
anecdotal number crunching:
Based on Flavourart's disclosure of diacetyl content, you would have to vape 5ml of e-juice, to have taken in .225 ppm (parts per million) of diacetyl- and please note that is not inhaled on every breath.
The conditions in the popcorn factories, had a low end of 20 ppm and a high end of 100 ppm. At 20ppm that is 88 times less than the workers were exposed to. At 100 ppm it is 440 times less.
In the popcorn factory, every breath was loaded with diacetyl concentrated at 20 ppm minimum. We don't vape every breath.
So based on this- I think you can assume that by the time you develop lung disease from vaping diacetyl containing juice- you'll be around 500 years old... if it happens at all.
I'm posting this, because having been alarmed by the recent postings, I almost throttled my juice suppliers by going postal. But before I go postal- I usually check to see if I'm justified.
Based on what I'm seeing, this *scandal* is hyperbole. And companies that use Flavourart are not being irresponsible nor malicious.
The fact that we *know* the levels of this chemical- gives us a choice.
If you do not want the (cough) "risk" don't vape the juice.
I am happy to vape Flavourart. It's going out of the house that scares me. Go figure.
Are you asking these same vendors to remove nicotine from their juice?
I ask this because after having crunched some numbers the whole thing looks like a non-issue to *me*.
Of course not. We know the risks of nicotine and we still choose to vape it. Even though your numbers are reassuring in a way, it merely *suggests* that vaping diacetyl is harmless. You don't know for sure. All I ask of the suppliers is to work to make their juices as safe as possible, and as I said before, if they choose not to, I respect that. And even if they choose not to remove it, AT LEAST let us know which juices contain it so we can make an informed decision, as you have.
Just an added note, nicotine isn't really dangerous or harmful, especially when speaking of the small amounts involved in vaping.
Lets not compare nicotine to diacetyl as there is no comparison.
My 2 cents.
Lets not compare nicotine to diacetyl as there is no comparison.
My 2 cents.
Well they are dangerous in different ways...
But not to belabor the point.
It is *good* to know what is in your juice. It is *bad* to demonize diacetyl at a concentration 88 times less than the lowest levels measured in those factories. And my example of 5 ml of daily vaping is really really high.
You guys are arguing this issue with the exact same argument people use when citing propylene glycol as "anti freeze" in e-cigs. It's the same argument. Exactly.
You take an industrial situation where every single breath had super high concentrations of diacetyl and compare it to a situation where the amount of exposure is minuscule.
This isn't radon gas guys. It's a food additive.
It's a food additive that has horrific consequences. Take in too much nicotine and you get jittery or the headache from hell. Take in too much diacetyl and your lungs start turning to stone. There have been multiple healthcare professionals in this thread that have said NONONONONO to any amount of diacetyl inhaled. You used the example of the popcorn workers. What about the people that got it just cooking popcorn at home? If you get crushed by a boulder weighing 2000 pounds, that doesn't make a 1000 pound boulder safe to have fall on you, which is the argument you are trying to use with diacetyl; it took the popcorn workers 220 ppm so obviously that is the dangerous level. You don't know if their lungs started to fibrose at 220 or at 10.
It is not safe to be inhaled in the continuous manner we do it. It is one of the few ingredients in our flavoring that HAS been tested for inhalation and the results are not to do it. Most of switched to vaping to better our health, and inhaling something down to cause the devastation that diacetyl does is not the way to do it. In addition, the desire of some vendors to deny and then defend their use of the ingredient is somewhat frightening and could understandably cause some to question the integrity.
And I will say again, my beef is not with Flavourart. Flavourart does not make flavorings for inhalation. Flavourart makes food flavorings, and there is nothing wrong with diacetyl being eaten- the documentation Flavourart has available on their web site makes that clear. So it's not a dig at the good ol' family man Max the Ph.D. chemist at Flavourart; he created a product that is safe for use as intended. That is his job. He is not a flavor designer for inhalation purposes, and I am sure that even if a flavoring company existed solely for the purpose of creating flavoring agents for inhalation, diacetyl would not be on the ingredient risk.
You want to use it, fine. But vendors owe the consumer the opportunity to spare their lungs any further damage by letting them know what products it is in so that the choice is in our hands. We spent too many years letting the cigarette industry decide what we can inhale. We're vaping so we can take back control of what we inhale into our lungs, and allowing vendors to hide behind skirts made up of creative statistics as opposed to making them stand in the face of scientific fact is nothing but a blatant attempt to wrest that control back away from us.
They don't seem like the same issue to me. In one case, people are confusing two different chemical substances and calling the propylene glycol radiator fluid when that is not what it was. In another, there was contamination in one of the samples tested.
Case A does not apply because diacetyl is diacetyl. They spec sheets even acknowledge it is dangerous to inhale, so this is not confusion as to what chemical it really is. Case B does not apply either since it is no accident it is in there. It is not a byproduct of mixing two other chemicals. It is not a grabbed-the-wrong-bottle kind of contamination. It is intentionally put into it.
As you pointed out, it is a food additive not an aromatic. It is meant to be put in the mouth, swallowed, and spend some time in the stomach, where, as clearly stated on the Flavourart web site, the digestive process replete with enzymes and acids and all kinds of other gastrointestinal processes render it safe. If anyone has the same processes going on in their lungs to make it safe to inhale, I suggest they see a surgeon PDQ to get that taken care because they've been wired wrong.
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