Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!

[SimpleSins]

Thank you for the info but where did you get that data and how can it be verified? Also when you say that ecig has 0.00000900 grams of diacetyl, which liquid are you referring to and in which quantity? I'm sure that number will change based on the concentration of diacetyl in different flavorings. Thanks.

I'm a little curious myself. I went to the Phillip Morris site, because I used to smoke a Phillip Morris product, and they list ~105 different flavoring agents used in a cigarette, but not diacetyl or butanedione (or even acetylproprionyl).

 

[SimpleSins]

Those are Flavor Arts measurements. While they are a company that uses diacetyl they had no problems disclosing information about which of their flavors had diacetyl in them. rolygate talked about their chemist and being impressed with their lab test results, and that helped me become more comfortable in the numbers they were putting out.

Here you can find where I quoted the 0.000009 number.
Diacetile - Flavourart. La sartoria degli aromi

I think you read the Rolygate's post wrong. The only thing he commended Flavourart on was, ironically, the thing that you and others seem to arguing about- he commended them on acknowledging that there was diacetyl in some of their flavorings and for showing specifically which ones and at what percentage.

The ones whose lab works he commended was juice providers esmoke here in the US and Intellicig in the UK, who both routinely run QA/safety/purity testing on their juices to ensure no contamination, and display this confirmable information on their web site.

 

[Confed999]

And I want my ecig to be safer than my cigarette was, and justifying diacetyl by saying it was in an analog doesn't cut it.

Well, you know what types of flavors are most likely to contain it, don't buy any of them. Poof, problem solved...

 

[Antwoord]

I'm a little curious myself. I went to the Phillip Morris site, because I used to smoke a Phillip Morris product, and they list ~105 different flavoring agents used in a cigarette, but not diacetyl or butanedione (or even acetylproprionyl).

It could be because diacetyl is a naturally occurring substance. Since it was banned by the FDA they may not have added it to their cigarettes, but since it does occur naturally it may be present in tobacco as it is in fruit, and other organic stuff.

 

[Antwoord]

Yeah, and I'm expected to believe what a flavoring company tells me? The flavor company at the center of the diacetyl row was proven to have lied for years even when they knew it would kill people. One person got $20m compensation as a result and that's not for a misdemeanor. Flavor companies lie - proven fact. And perhaps more importantly, they might have been lied to by the chemical companies who they source from. Who knows, in a chain of people all relying on what the guy before them told them?

At least with a company who is honest enough to say which ones have diacetyl and which ones don't, there is a better chance of getting an honest answer - IMO.

If someone wants to convince me that their product is clean THEN SHOW ME THE LAB TEST RESULTS. Very simple.

He was talking about Flavor Art actually showing people their lab test results, and saying it was better that they at least admitted that diacetyl was used and where.

 

[FieryOne]

If you cannot comprehend that the burning effect of a cigarette may provoke a different quantity and quality of inhalation as opposed to the cooler vaporization in a PV there is not really much to discuss.

And I want my ecig to be safer than my cigarette was, and justifying diacetyl by saying it was in an analog doesn't cut it.

As to the BOOP in cigarette smokers....again, I refer to statement one and the different chemistry involved in burning diacetyl as opposed to vaporizing it- which was closer to what the popcorn workers and candy workers endured.

Again, I repeat, if you want to use it, terrific. But as it has been pointed out, it has been banned as a food additive in the USA, which means they don't even think it's safe to be consumed orally, let alone inhaled. But a responsible vendor should be transparent enough in his product, or firm enough in his conviction that it is no more dangerous than any of the other ingredients, to proudly mark a particular flavor as containing diacetyl so that those who choose to make the safest choice possible can just skip it.

It sure seems to me that you have an adequate list of suppliers to choose from that have stated they don't use it. I really don't understand what you are getting at here. I think a lot of us can recognize the quantity is controllable and that options exist. The FDA has not banned it as far as I can tell. If someone could post a link indicating a ban I'd appreciate it. I cannot find one.

 

[SimpleSins]

Well, you know what types of flavors are most likely to contain it, don't buy any of them. Poof, problem solved...

With a vendor who is willing to be honest with his customers about what is being used, this may or may not be necessary. As a matter of fact, since it is banned, no US flavoring manufacturer is using diacetyl. So it's not necessary for me to avoid, say caramel flavors, but rather just the ones that choose to use flavorings that contain it. And, AGAIN, take a sauna in the stuff if you want to. But a responsible vendor is going to have the information open and available on his web site, much like Flavour Art chose to do.

 

[Nikhil]

Ok to make this easier to look at.

One analogue cig has 0.000400 grams of diacetyl
And E-cig has 0.00000900 grams of diacetyl

There are no reports of anyone getting Bronchiolisis Obliterans from smoking, so e-cigs are still better for you.

This is a little misleading, because their example is FlavourArt Butter flavoring used at 0.3% in 0.2ml of liquid. In reality you would need to use it at closer to 10% to get a strong flavor, which would be about 30 times more (0.0003g/0.2ml).

Nik, does that ban also include 2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl) ?

Neither the US nor EU ban Acetyl Propionyl in food flavorings as far as I know.

 

[Confed999]

And, AGAIN, take a sauna in the stuff if you want to.

Again? Not sure whom you are addressing? All I did was provide you with a simple and 100% effective way of avoiding this thing that has you so frightened... Goodnight and good health.

 

[SimpleSins]

II know that Lorann has some flavorings that still contain it.

Perhaps you should take that up with them, because LorAnn denies using diacetyl. As for the FDA ban, I took Nikhil's word for it, so hopefully he will post the link. Lawyers are lining up looking for people who have been exposed to diacetyl because it's the next asbestos as far as personal injury.

So apparently there are a few more people than a couple hysterics on an ecig forum who think it's not a particularly safe chemical to inhale. And, yes, there are plenty to choose from that have taken the time to offer a reasoned responsible answer even when their products are not entirely diacetyl free (go see how he managed to do it on the Decadent Vapor forum). Hopefully this will come up often enough so that new members can be made aware of the potential danger and be aware of their marketplace choices.

 

[Antwoord]

This is a little misleading, because their example is FlavourArt Butter flavoring used at 0.3% in 0.2ml of liquid. In reality you would need to use it at closer to 10% to get a strong flavor, which would be about 30 times more (0.0003g/0.2ml).


Neither the US nor EU ban Acetyl Propionyl in food flavorings as far as I know.

Right on man. I'm not saying Diacetyl is a great thing to use, but with those figures it is still less than what's contained in analogs. It just makes me feel better to not have to go completely nuts about suppliers, and the FDA using diacetyl as leverage to ban e-cigs altogether.

 

[mgmrick]

Right on man. I'm not saying Diacetyl is a great thing to use, but with those figures it is still less than what's contained in analogs. It just makes me feel better to not have to go completely nuts about suppliers, and the FDA using diacetyl as leverage to ban e-cigs altogether.

Thanks for your research on this

 

[FieryOne]

Perhaps you should take that up with them, because LorAnn denies using diacetyl. As for the FDA ban, I took Nikhil's word for it, so hopefully he will post the link. Lawyers are lining up looking for people who have been exposed to diacetyl because it's the next asbestos as far as personal injury.

So apparently there are a few more people than a couple hysterics on an ecig forum who think it's not a particularly safe chemical to inhale. And, yes, there are plenty to choose from that have taken the time to offer a reasoned responsible answer even when their products are not entirely diacetyl free (go see how he managed to do it on the Decadent Vapor forum). Hopefully this will come up often enough so that new members can be made aware of the potential danger and be aware of their marketplace choices.

My apologies...I deleted the part about Lorann's flavors, but apparently not fast enough. They do not contain diacetyl. However...I still cannot find an FDA ban.

 

[Bovinia]

This is a little misleading, because their example is FlavourArt Butter flavoring used at 0.3% in 0.2ml of liquid. In reality you would need to use it at closer to 10% to get a strong flavor, which would be about 30 times more (0.0003g/0.2ml).


Neither the US nor EU ban Acetyl Propionyl in food flavorings as far as I know.

Nik thank you again for the info. What IS a safe(r) alternative for the buttery, caramel type flavors?

 

[Nikhil]

Sorry SimpleSins, I read some misinformation and went to the FDA's list to check and it appears that it's not banned at all. However, FEMA did recommend reduction of diacetyl in manufacturing places and there was a lot of potential legislation flying around for years so I doubt many of the well-grounded US companies use it.

Listed in Part 184 of Regulations section at bottom: Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS)

Easier to read list: http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/allprof.html

Perhaps you should take that up with them, because LorAnn denies using diacetyl. As for the FDA ban, I took Nikhil's word for it, so hopefully he will post the link. Lawyers are lining up looking for people who have been exposed to diacetyl because it's the next asbestos as far as personal injury.

So apparently there are a few more people than a couple hysterics on an ecig forum who think it's not a particularly safe chemical to inhale. And, yes, there are plenty to choose from that have taken the time to offer a reasoned responsible answer even when their products are not entirely diacetyl free (go see how he managed to do it on the Decadent Vapor forum). Hopefully this will come up often enough so that new members can be made aware of the potential danger and be aware of their marketplace choices.

 

[v1John]

Diacetyl seems to have a boiling point of 88 degrees C, this is = 190.4 degrees F

Does this mean that an ecig coil regulated to burn at less than 190 degrees F would be able to keep it from getting vaporized? Would that be enough heat to still be able to vape?

 

[Edwv30]

hi folks,
just so it is said from us personally.
this hysteria over diacetyl is just that, chicken little the sky is falling. Please. do some research before folks start getting hysterical.
remember the lab rats in the 70's that were feed so much sugar substitute that folks were crying about sugar substitutes? well, those subs are still out there and being used today. I see them at the restaurant every time I go out.
Not sure why, or who, started this hysteria thread but come one, really?

Wow... David, you appear to be very confident in your statements concerning our "hysteria" surrounding Diacetyl. Could you please tell us of your educational background? Have you conducted any scientific studies concerning this chemical? Can you point us to one that proves our fears are unfounded? Also, you speak about this sugar substitute but I am unsure how that relates to Diacetyl?

We are all vapers here. Pamela and I spend a ton of money on our pg/vg and nicotine. way more then almost all other dealers. we do it for your health.

Really? That's great! There are a LOT of unhealthy people out there who can't afford to purchase eliquids but would like to quit smoking. Since you are doing this for peoples health, (and not financial gain), I am sure you could help these individuals? I can't comment on you spending more than other vendors...perhaps you sell more?

we don't use anyone other then FlavourART in Italy for a good reason, the other companies do not produce as fine a product. Good evidence is your atomizers dying in a month or two where ours, and those of our users last 6 months or more. pure is pure. We will continue to buy the finest out there no matter what it costs.

I must disagree here. I use other vendors products who's quality, IMO, far exceed your own. They also DO NOT contain Diacetyl. FlavorArt IS a great supplier of flavors...the majority of which are NOT meant for inhalation and is stated as such on their website. Also, one atomizer lasting longer than another IS NOT evidence of product purity. It also does not mean that a juice doesn't contain a harmful substance.

We let this thread run its's course. As you can all imagine, there are dealers out there who do all they can to slow down other dealers because their bottom line is being affected.
Look at all of this long before you cast a shadow on an industry, or a dealer, trying their best to bring the best.

Who is "We'? You can't lock, ("let this thread run it's course"), this thread like you did on your sub-forum...sorry. Everyone who brought up concerns on this thread, (and others), are established and NOT your competition. Nice argument but it has been overused for too long now. It also distracts from the main concerns here and is, in fact, a derailment.

We eat popcorn all the time. just breathing air these days is bad for you.

Seriously? What does eating popcorn have to do with anything? The breathing air example is also derailing if not disturbing.

FlavourART in Italy is licensed and pured by their division of the fda. they worked hard to get that licensing. the fda here in the U.S. will no doubt do their own testing.

I am not sure what "pured" means but I state again. The majority of their juices ARE NOT meant to be vaped and they make this clear on their website.

In the end we all benefit from that. me personally? at my age it is hard to put stock in what any government tells me is good, bad or indifferent. I vape. i vape all day long and I feel good. a heck of a lot better then I felt when I smoked marlboro's for 20 years. I am sure you all feel the same... [/QUOTE}

Nice. Bring in the government and turn this into an "Us versus Them" argument. This has nothing to do with the government. It has everything to do with a chemical that is known to destroy lung tissue. I am glad you feel better now...will you say the same thing five years from now? Two years from now? The point is...this chemical is known to damage lung tissue and KILL people. Please stop downplaying this fact and distracting the issue.

Feel free to do your research folks, but let's stop taking swypes at each other on this fine board...

We have been doing our research thank you. No "swipes" have been given...only the facts.

 

[Nikhil]

Diacetyl seems to have a boiling point of 88 degrees C, this is = 190.4 degrees F

Does this mean that an ecig coil regulated to burn at less than 190 degrees F would be able to keep it from getting vaporized? Would that be enough heat to still be able to vape?

The boiling point of PG and VG are much higher, so it wouldn't work.

Nik thank you again for the info. What IS a safe(r) alternative for the buttery, caramel type flavors?

Acetoin, delta-tetradecalactone, and ethyl lactate.

 

[Nikhil]

Thought I would let you guys know I'm sending an e-mail to Massimiliano at FlavourArt to find out about 2,3-Pentanedione content. Will let you know what he says.

 

[GiMante]

Thought I would let you guys know I'm sending an e-mail to Massimiliano at FlavourArt to find out about 2,3-Pentanedione content. Will let you know what he says.

Fantastic! I will be anxiously waiting the response to that. Thanks Nikhil