Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!

[mgmrick]

hi folks,
just so it is said from us personally.
this hysteria over diacetyl is just that, chicken little the sky is falling. Please. do some research before folks start getting hysterical.
remember the lab rats in the 70's that were feed so much sugar substitute that folks were crying about sugar substitutes? well, those subs are still out there and being used today. I see them at the restaurant every time I go out.
Not sure why, or who, started this hysteria thread but come one, really?
We are all vapers here. Pamela and I spend a ton of money on our pg/vg and nicotine. way more then almost all other dealers. we do it for your health. we don't use anyone other then FlavourART in Italy for a good reason, the other companies do not produce as fine a product. Good evidence is your atomizers dying in a month or two where ours, and those of our users last 6 months or more. pure is pure. We will continue to buy the finest out there no matter what it costs.
We let this thread run its's course. As you can all imagine, there are dealers out there who do all they can to slow down other dealers because their bottom line is being affected.
Look at all of this long before you cast a shadow on an industry, or a dealer, trying their best to bring the best.
We eat popcorn all the time. just breathing air these days is bad for you.
FlavourART in Italy is licensed and pured by their division of the fda. they worked hard to get that licensing. the fda here in the U.S. will no doubt do their own testing. In the end we all benefit from that. me personally? at my age it is hard to put stock in what any government tells me is good, bad or indifferent. I vape. i vape all day long and I feel good. a heck of a lot better then I felt when I smoked marlboro's for 20 years. I am sure you all feel the same...
Feel free to do your research folks, but let's stop taking swypes at each other on this fine board...

And what have I tried to say....if you all so worried go back to analog cigs (the safer cig)

 

[Redbone]

We eat popcorn all the time. just breathing air these days is bad for you.
FlavourART in Italy is licensed and pured by their division of the fda. they worked hard to get that licensing. the fda here in the U.S. will no doubt do their own testing.

The problem is that diacetyl is ok to consume/ingest and therefore is fine for food and food products, but not so great when inhaled.

The flavors that Flavorart make are intended to food/food products and not approved for inhalation to the lungs as their disclaimer states:

Disclaimer: We produce and sell FOOD FLAVORS which comply with Italian and EU legislation and EFSA reccomendation. They are safe for FOOD use as they are intended to enter the body by the digestive system, not by lungs.

 

[SimpleSins]

And what have I tried to say....if you all so worried go back to analog cigs (the safer cig)

And you're not getting it. We are vaping to get away from the chemicals. It defeats the purpose if the same chemicals are in the ejuice. And you are free to have as much diacetyl as you want. Put it into a nebulizer and give yourself routine 10 minute deep breathing treatments. Run it through a humidifier in your bedroom at night while you sleep. Terrific. Have at it. But there must be transparency on the part of vendors so that those that are actually looking to cut down on the chemicals that we used as smokers can do so. I do find it heartening that a goodly number of the vendors, though, have gone to great pains to let the vaping community know that they either do not use it at all or where exactly it can be found (and therefore avoided) by those that are not quite as dismissive about the real threat of pulmonary fibrosis (since as smokers who continue to vape, it is questionable whether we would be eligible for the life-saving transplant if it became necessary).

 

[Sdh]

This thread must be of concern when I am told to smoke cigarettes. I for one want to know what is in my e-liquid. Its my choice. Knowledge is my power to ask if this ingredient is in a fluid or not. What is so wrong with asking? Is it going to hurt someone's buisness? Sorry but their are really nice manufactures of e-fluid out their that are willing to keep the junk out of the e-liquid. End of story.... Its one choice who we do buisness with. I personally would never use a vendor who is trying to change my mind over this chemical.

 

[mgmrick]

Yeh I got in wrong I never smoked them bad analog cigs cause they are bad for me and the people around me.

 

[Antwoord]

There was a post earlier about some of the inherent flaws in comparing the two on a apple/apple basis because of the differing temperatures, the effects of other ingredients on it, the way it may be vaped, etc. Frankly, though, if we want to continue to say that vaping is safer than smoking, shouldn't be striving to get pretty much as much that was in a cigarette out of our juice? The fact that it was in cigarettes is not a particularly comforting fact regarding it's presence in juice.

But here was an interesting quote from the NEJM that I found interesting in which early studies seem to show that it is less dangerous to handle diacetyl than it is to inhale butter-flavored vapor.

MMS: Error

Indeed, necrosis of the respiratory epithelium in the mainstem bronchus was more severe in rats exposed to butter-flavoring vapors than in rats exposed to diacetyl alone

For the record necrosis=cell death, mainstem bronchusung

Right, the inhaling part is what is dangerous about Diacetyl. Those measurements are micrograms. The reason it's hard to compare the two is because what they are measuring is the amount of smoke produced from a cigarette.

Roughly 400 micrograms are present in an entire cigarettes smoke. Milliliters is a different metric for volume, and we would have to know the weight, or density of the fluid we are trying to measure in order to get it comparable to micrograms.

I've done enough researching, and now I'm pretty comfortable with Flavour Art's measurements.

Assuming that a typical E cigarette contains an average of 0,2ml of E juice, the amount of diacetyl assumed in a smoking session is...... 0,000009 grams or 0,009 ppm (part per million).
Always consider the dosage in use !

That is a truly infinitesimally small amount. I think it's probably a good idea to phase out diacetyl from e-liquid, but I really think everyone can relax a little bit about this.

 

[Bovinia]

I read about 24 pages, and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but the FDA has banned diacetyl from food flavorings in the US.

There are a few flavors I carry that do contain small amounts of diacetyl, and I can tell you how much. I've been looking for diacetyl-free flavors to replace them, particularly Pina Colada, which is my highest. I don't use the higher diacetyl content flavorings such as Butter or Yogurt.

Pina Colada: 0.0005 mg/ml
Vanilla Cinnamint: 0.00007 mg/ml
Tiramisu: 0.00004 mg/ml
Butterscotch Cookie: 0.000018 mg/ml
Cappuccino: 0.0000012 mg/ml
All others: 0mg/ml



Note this is just from a consumer perspective for clarification, not any attempt at a justification or a safety claim. When you breathe in vapor, you are using about (high over-estimate) 0.1ml per drag. The average person breathes in about a liter per breath, although when vaping most people take larger inhales. Assuming a liter inhale, you will be getting 0.05ppm from my Pina Colada when you vape (in the breath). Once it reaches your lungs it will be diluted to <0.01ppm, and generally it is quickly exhaled.

In a cigarette, there is 600 times as much diacetyl as there is in 1ml of my Pina Colada. In the popcorn factory the 8ppm and greater concentrations would stay in the lungs constantly.

Thank you for posting Nikhil, this is the kind of info we are looking for...so that we can then choose for ourselves if we wish to vape these flavors...or any blends that contain these flavors.

 

[Automaton]

Well, after doing some research and some math... this is really a non-issue.

The levels of diacetyl you'll get from even the highest-containing e-juices is a tiny fraction of the dose required to harm you.

Let's not forget the importance of dosage. Nicotine is a poison, remember? Nicotine is even more poisonous than arsenic.

And yet in the doses most of us consume, it's no more harmful than coffee.

The mere presence of diacetyl does not automatically mean it's dangerous. Hell, oxygen is dangerous if you have it in sufficiently high concentration.

I, for one, will continue to buy juices I like which happen to contain diacetyl. Because even as one of the youngest vapers here, I simply won't live long enough for this to be even the smallest health concern. If I happen to make it to my 500th birthday, maybe I'll re-consider.

I'm all in favor of informed consumerism, and vendor disclosure. But really... let's be sensible about this.

 

[mgmrick]

So what have learned here tonite? E-cigs are a safer alternative to analog cigs ?

Was it really necessary to try to scare new users out there over nothing? Maybe there is an agenda? If you are really so worried maybe you all need to look at your lifestyles...there are things that maybe you should not be doing as there are risks involved. I am going to continue vaping on as I enjoy it

 

[FieryOne]

Diacetyl is in analogs. Diacetyl is in some flavorings...not all. I'll take my chances with e-cigs because I can control what I buy and how much nic I vape and which flavors, whereas with the analogs I was getting Diacetyl and much much more at quantities I could only control by NOT lighting up.

 

[Antwoord]

Ok to make this easier to look at.

One analogue cig has 0.000400 grams of diacetyl
And E-cig has 0.00000900 grams of diacetyl

There are no reports of anyone getting Bronchiolisis Obliterans from smoking, so e-cigs are still better for you.

 

[FieryOne]

Ok to make this easier to look at.

One analogue cig has 0.000400 grams of diacetyl
And E-cig has 0.00000900 grams of diacetyl

There are no reports of anyone getting Bronchiolisis Obliterans from smoking, so e-cigs are still better for you.

Thank you Fiddles! That should ease a lot of minds.

 

[Denrock316]

I'm not concerned in the least. I buy all my liquids from freedomsmokeusa and I will definitely continue to. They obviously take alot of care in what they put in their liquids and it shows too. My atomizers last longer using there liquids, they taste better than anything else I've tried, and they just plain seem to work a little better. Also you have to consider that they vape the liquids they make too, and I'm sure they have the same concerns as many of us about what they are inhaling into their lungs. This is just my opinion if yours is different then we can just agree to disagree.

 

[Antwoord]

Thank you Fiddles! That should ease a lot of minds.

No problem I kinda got freaked out a little too along the way. I think I probably vaped about 10ml while fidgeting around with the internet and a calculator over the last couple of days lol.

 

[Bovinia]

I personally will follow the advice given by a founder of these forums, a pharmacist, and several other people in the medical profession and avoid this chemical. I am not advocating boycotting any vendors or suppliers. I want to make my own choices and if a vendor doesn't disclose the information then I'll find one who will, and I will continue to DIY.

To the vendors who do take it seriously, I thank you.

 

[GiMante]

I read about 24 pages, and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but the FDA has banned diacetyl from food flavorings in the US.

Nik, does that ban also include 2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl) ?

 

[Vaporologist]

Ok to make this easier to look at.

One analogue cig has 0.000400 grams of diacetyl
And E-cig has 0.00000900 grams of diacetyl

There are no reports of anyone getting Bronchiolisis Obliterans from smoking, so e-cigs are still better for you.

Thank you for the info but where did you get that data and how can it be verified? Also when you say that ecig has 0.00000900 grams of diacetyl, which liquid are you referring to and in which quantity? I'm sure that number will change based on the concentration of diacetyl in different flavorings. Thanks.

 

[SimpleSins]

If you cannot comprehend that the burning effect of a cigarette may provoke a different quantity and quality of inhalation as opposed to the cooler vaporization in a PV there is not really much to discuss.

And I want my ecig to be safer than my cigarette was, and justifying diacetyl by saying it was in an analog doesn't cut it.

As to the BOOP in cigarette smokers....again, I refer to statement one and the different chemistry involved in burning diacetyl as opposed to vaporizing it- which was closer to what the popcorn workers and candy workers endured.

Again, I repeat, if you want to use it, terrific. But as it has been pointed out, it has been banned as a food additive in the USA, which means they don't even think it's safe to be consumed orally, let alone inhaled. But a responsible vendor should be transparent enough in his product, or firm enough in his conviction that it is no more dangerous than any of the other ingredients, to proudly mark a particular flavor as containing diacetyl so that those who choose to make the safest choice possible can just skip it.

 

[Antwoord]

Thank you for the info but where did you get that data and how can it be verified? Also when you say that ecig has 0.00000900 grams of diacetyl, which liquid are you referring to? I'm sure that number will change based on the concentration of diacetyl in different flavorings. Thanks.

Those are Flavor Arts measurements. While they are a company that uses diacetyl they had no problems disclosing information about which of their flavors had diacetyl in them. rolygate talked about their chemist and being impressed with their lab test results, and that helped me become more comfortable in the numbers they were putting out.

Here you can find where I quoted the 0.000009 number.
Diacetile - Flavourart. La sartoria degli aromi

 

[GiMante]

I personally will follow the advice given by a founder of these forums, a pharmacist, and several other people in the medical profession and avoid this chemical. I am not advocating boycotting any vendors or suppliers. I want to make my own choices and if a vendor doesn't disclose the information then I'll find one who will, and I will continue to DIY.

To the vendors who do take it seriously, I thank you.

+1, well said!