Big Tobacco proposes open container tank ban for e-liquid

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Sirius

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That is not true. CASAA accepts donations from businesses all of the time. We just do not provide any quid pro quo (public acknowledgement of the donation, influencing CASAA policy) nor do we directly solicit donations (calling/writing directly and asking them for money.) However, we encourage our members to get vendors involved and ask those vendors to donate and keep their customers informed about CASAA. The only place CASAA draws the line is not accepting donations from companies that sell combustible products - not that any have been offered.

Active fundraising is full-time work that takes away from all of the other work that needs to be done. That is why we rely on members to get the word out. The board of directors cannot do everything on their own. We NEED members to step up and do their part.

Kristen .. Thank you and CASAA for all you do for us vapers. I recently came across some pier review papers on ECs. Just thought I would share.
E-cigarette research, studies and papers

Effectiveness Of Ecigs In Quitting Smoking
A cross-sectional population study (5863 people) of the effectiveness of e-cigarettes as a quit smoking aid has found ecig users were more likely to report abstinence than either those who used other nicotine replacement therapies or no aid. Published August 2014.


Real‐world effectiveness of e‐cigarettes when used to aid smoking cessation: a cross‐sectional population study - Brown - 2014 - Addiction - Wiley Online Library
 

Hightower

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I would be afraid to vape anything made by "big tobacco companys" who know's what other chemicals they would throw "in the e-liquid mix" That would continue to kill people:facepalm: Well if we cant get them to smoke we gotta do something:blink:

Exactly! How come since I've been vaping for 7 months now, I can go 6 hours without any nic and not feel like I 'need' a vape? It's apparently not just the nic that's addictive in analogs.
 

zoiDman

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Exactly! How come since I've been vaping for 7 months now, I can go 6 hours without any nic and not feel like I 'need' a vape? It's apparently not just the nic that's addictive in analogs.

There are Many Chemicals that BT is Allowed to Add to Cigarettes. I truly believe that I was Just as to those Added Chemicals as I was to the Nicotine in Cigarettes.
 

sky4it

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I have been struggling to put how I feel into words. I'm at a loss, perhaps for the first time ever, with how to voice my feelings. Here goes, but it may not be coherent.

I feel like the deeming regs DO affect everyone, if they are passed as proposed. There are 40 million Americans smoking.There can't be too many people who don't know at least one smoker who could benefit from a PV if the truth about these products were being told. Even if someone claims they don't know anyone who smokes, they certainly are affected at one time or another by second hand smoke and cigarette butts littering their communities. PVs create much less waste and are a harm reduction alternative to combustible tobacco products. Pushing through the regulations as written removes the ability for these people and their loved ones to even consider a better option for themselves and those around them. That is not freedom.

There is nothing incoherent in anything you have said. IMO, your questions and comments have touched on most of the pivotal issues. Regarding your comment that "That is not freedom." I agree. I will address your your questions one by one.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at, is how can we present our case to the masses so they can see these devices in a positive light and back that up with accurate reporting of scientific studies while calling out the people who are just looking for a payday?

This actually is where the battle axe is grinding and is the uphill climb. The problem is vapors have ALMOST NO ACCESS to major media outlets. Its complicated by a lot of disinformation. The Offices of Diseases and Controlleth recently published a report that ecigs are the CAUSE of new smoking habits by leading to it amongst new starters,-- in so many words. This went mainstream and was reported on local media outlets. My suggestion would be a media blitz, to small town media newspapers and think tanks in leaflet form, but I am not principal or party to the vaper organizations who engage it.


Is it too late to win the court of public opinion?

I dont know, but its getting real late in the day. I am not optimistic.



Is it too difficult to track down who greases who's hands in the FDA, "public health" and congress and call them out on it?

No, its not too difficult. But even if I can grab the greaseballs, who did this stuff, and throw the mud off there feet in your direction, people would never believe it, probably you either. So the answer to your question is no, but you cant because its just too unreasonable to try. In addition, you got a lot of crybabys on the in between, people who do what there told because they got there job and there simpleton way of looking at things, and they dont want to miss the back nine at the golf hole.

Is it too late to create simple to understand, easy to distribute info graphics that illustrate the real truth about PVs to the public?
Does this stuff exist already?

Yes, this information does exist. It's available, but like you suggest "how can we present our case to the masses", this point is not being focused on so it seems the information is at a log jam. (Because of access problems to the media, I presume.)


I think we're relying on solid information, but it's being presented in a way that is too scholarly to expect the average American to take notice of.

Its a double headed dragon your fighting. You have to provide some long winded scholarly arguments because those are the ones that attack the ecig industry also. but I think you make a great point about "the average American", because they look- in busy world for small sound bites.


I am also utterly sick of the "for the children" argument. Seriously, I'm one of those children ANTZ tried to protect from smoking and guess what, they failed.

You are correct, it is an utter sabotage of clear thinking and nothing but a ruse. A Professor of Economics from California recently paused an article in Los Vegas media outlets that indicated the FDA can do both. By both, I mean protect children from starting and protect the vaping industry and its users.


I just need to put out there how I'm feeling about all of this and hope to find some resources to help the cause.

If you want to help the cause (BTW, good idea), why dont you ask a moderator here at ECF like Cariweden? I couldnt tell you if they are looking for two hands to grab a shovel or not. Apparently, Classy has been looking for a job. And if Classy is around here less, how are they going to control a public trash can like me?

Here's the goods IMO MamaRymes, IMO, if the powers who are fighting the FDA over this legislation would focus only on putting there resources in the areas your questions suggest, it would, give em a fighting chance.

BTW GREAT JOB, for a "novice" you sure do have a good handle on where the problems are. It pays to read and listen---- NO?

Whatever the case, there will probably be a few eternal mortgages here, like Linkin Park says "In the End", so dont get sick over it.
 
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patkin

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I don't know the history on it but do know that when I went to the reservation for smokes the stores carried all the paraphernalia classically used for other substances.... so I'm wondering how all that got through if the same wording was used as pertains to vaping hardware... ie: "intended use." I mean this hardware is right out there and I guess in head shops too although I've never been in one of those. If "intended use" is a factor with that hardware, does anyone know how the shops get around it? Just not selling the illegal stuff used in it in the same store? What "intended purpose" is it sold for?
I know the FDA is also going after hooka hardware but what about the diet industry? Setups and flavorings are used there. The FDA has already cast a broad net in their wording to capture all hardware that could be used vaping regardless of nicotine content on the one hand (which I expect to be challenged legally... ie: that other paraphernalia and pipes haven't been captured) then did double-speak with "intended use" (I expect due to potential legal challenges.) Anyway, does anyone know the "intended use" history on other hardware?

PS: I hope trying to discuss this hasn't gotten me over the line on substance talk. I don't want to break any rules and tried to word this carefully.
 
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Sirius

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I don't know the history on it but do know that when I went to the reservation for smokes the stores carried all the paraphernalia classically used for other substances.... so I'm wondering how all that got through if the same wording was used as pertains to vaping hardware... ie: "intended use." I mean this hardware is right out there and I guess in head shops too although I've never been in one of those. If "intended use" is a factor with that hardware, does anyone know how the shops get around it? Just not selling the illegal stuff used in it in the same store? What "intended purpose" is it sold for?
I know the FDA is also going after hooka hardware but what about the diet industry? Setups and flavorings are used there. The FDA has already cast a broad net in their wording to capture all hardware that could be used vaping regardless of nicotine content on the one hand (which I expect to be challenged legally... ie: that other paraphernalia and pipes haven't been captured) then did double-speak with "intended use" (I expect due to potential legal challenges.) Anyway, does anyone know the "intended use" history on other hardware?

PS: I hope trying to discuss this hasn't gotten me over the line on substance talk. I don't want to break any rules and tried to word this carefully.

Most Head Shops sell canned tobacco for rolling that's how. The cops can't charge you if you have smoking paraphernalia (clean with no residue from hootch) as long as you have a can of Prince Albert or Borkum Riff.
 

DC2

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I suppose what I'm trying to get at, is how can we present our case to the masses so they can see these devices in a positive light and back that up with accurate reporting of scientific studies while calling out the people who are just looking for a payday? Is it too late to win the court of public opinion? Is it too difficult to track down who greases who's hands in the FDA, "public health" and congress and call them out on it? Is it too late to create simple to understand, easy to distribute info graphics that illustrate the real truth about PVs to the public? Does this stuff exist already?
In my opinion, we have all of those bases covered except for the most important one...
The mainstream media simply is not interested in our side of the story.

It has always been my opinion that we are going to need to do something that can not be ignored...
But that's going to take widespread coordinated action on the part of the vaping world.
 

stevegmu

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I don't know the history on it but do know that when I went to the reservation for smokes the stores carried all the paraphernalia classically used for other substances.... so I'm wondering how all that got through if the same wording was used as pertains to vaping hardware... ie: "intended use." I mean this hardware is right out there and I guess in head shops too although I've never been in one of those. If "intended use" is a factor with that hardware, does anyone know how the shops get around it? Just not selling the illegal stuff used in it in the same store? What "intended purpose" is it sold for?
I know the FDA is also going after hooka hardware but what about the diet industry? Setups and flavorings are used there. The FDA has already cast a broad net in their wording to capture all hardware that could be used vaping regardless of nicotine content on the one hand (which I expect to be challenged legally... ie: that other paraphernalia and pipes haven't been captured) then did double-speak with "intended use" (I expect due to potential legal challenges.) Anyway, does anyone know the "intended use" history on other hardware?

PS: I hope trying to discuss this hasn't gotten me over the line on substance talk. I don't want to break any rules and tried to word this carefully.

There are a lot of laws which are rarely if ever enforced... I have a paperweight which happens to be the exact size, shape and weight of a pair of brass knuckles...
 

AndriaD

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There are a lot of laws which are rarely if ever enforced...

You're right; most of the "small stuff" laws, cops don't bother with, because they hate paperwork as much as anyone else does -- they stay on the books just so that cops can have a reason to harass us or lock us up, when they can't find any other legal reason to do so, but for whatever reason, they want leverage over someone. Just as an example -- say they thought someone was guilty of a really major crime, rape or murder or something, but they couldn't find any good evidentiary reason to keep him in custody -- unless that suspect had a little green herb, well there ya go, instant reason to hold him, while they tear up his house and his life looking for evidence.

Those laws are like strings... mostly they stay untied, but they're there to give cops something to grab, if they really want to.

Andria
 

imsoenthused

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There are a lot of laws which are rarely if ever enforced... I have a paperweight which happens to be the exact size, shape and weight of a pair of brass knuckles...

As AndriaD mentioned above, let a cop looking for a reason catch you with that paper weight and see how long it goes unenforced.
 

Bassnorma

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Risk of adulteration? Really? What an impertinent, inept, and imbecilic group of ......!!!!! Tell me how many dangerous chemicals are in those cigarettes again. Come now RJR, that lil' ol' tobacca didn't grow out of God's green Earth like that did it, darlin'?

RJR should be quiet while the intelligent people are talking.

If the FDA acts on this load of horse manure, I think we all need to write Congress today and ask for an immediate investigation into the bribes that the "Administration" must surely be taking.
 
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imsoenthused

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I actually have it sitting on my desk at home as a paperweight...
I believe you, but that doesn't mean in the right hypothetical situation it couldn't be used against you by a gung ho law enforcement officer or prosecutor. All I was saying is that those seldom enforced laws can definitely be selectively enforced to a lot inconvenience for someone who thought it never would be a problem.
 

Bassnorma

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I believe you, but that doesn't mean in the right hypothetical situation it couldn't be used against you by a gung ho law enforcement officer or prosecutor. All I was saying is that those seldom enforced laws can definitely be selectively enforced to a lot inconvenience for someone who thought it never would be a problem.

The good ol' "Probable Cause" thing....
 

stevegmu

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I believe you, but that doesn't mean in the right hypothetical situation it couldn't be used against you by a gung ho law enforcement officer or prosecutor. All I was saying is that those seldom enforced laws can definitely be selectively enforced to a lot inconvenience for someone who thought it never would be a problem.

Leverage is the whole point of lesser and included charges...
 

patkin

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Most Head Shops sell canned tobacco for rolling that's how. The cops can't charge you if you have smoking paraphernalia (clean with no residue from hootch) as long as you have a can of Prince Albert or Borkum Riff.

So the FDA allows this paraphernalia for tobacco use as well as pipes for tobacco use but they're going after our setups as "intended for use" with tobacco which they maintain we use giving them purview. I read lawyer all over this by those companies with the bucks to hire them.... hopefully they put their competitions aside and join forces in the effort.
 

Sirius

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I believe you, but that doesn't mean in the right hypothetical situation it couldn't be used against you by a gung ho law enforcement officer or prosecutor. All I was saying is that those seldom enforced laws can definitely be selectively enforced to a lot inconvenience for someone who thought it never would be a problem.

We have Grand Juries here in Georgia. They could indite a ham sandwich if they wanted to. It sucks I know but that's the way that dog hunts.
 

TomGeorge

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So the FDA allows this paraphernalia for tobacco use as well as pipes for tobacco use but they're going after our setups as "intended for use" with tobacco which they maintain we use giving them purview. I read lawyer all over this by those companies with the bucks to hire them.... hopefully they put their competitions aside and join forces in the effort.

Locally, a few summers ago, head shops were having their shipments of glass pipes seized. It was all over the news, and then it stopped just as suddenly as it started. I wonder if it was done as a preemptive action to set a precedent for if they decide to crack down on e-cigs.

Maybe I am just paranoid lol
 
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