What is SFTAFA? I know the B/M I go to joined something or started something but I don't remember what.
Big Tobacco proposes open container tank ban for e-liquid
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What is SFTAFA? I know the B/M I go to joined something or started something but I don't remember what.
Alcoholics Anonymous has also always had a firm Tradition of not accepting any funds from outside sources, but only donations from members -- and they're by far the most successful means of living without booze that's ever come along. I know that many of their mottos and practices have become cliches, but that's probably because they work. "If you work it."
They were kinda laughed at and looked down upon too, in their early days, but they've stood the test of time very well. Remaining free of corporate sponsorship is a beautiful way of assuring the most objectivity we can hope for.Andria
I can't speak for Ireland.
But in the USA, if you make No Claim as to a Product Helping you to Quit Smoking, and Do Not advertise it as to be Used with a Tobacco Product, and Do Not Sell it with any Tobacco Product (Like in a Starter Kit with e-Liquids or a Prefilled Carto), then the FDA Does Not have the Authority over it.
It is and will Continue to be Perfectly Legal for you to Flavor your Own e-Liquids. What the FDA will Almost Assuredly do is Ban the Sale of Unapproved Flavored e-Liquids.
And what is Likely, at least to some, is that the FDA will make All e-Liquid sales Face-to-Face Sales Only. No Internet Net Sales
Could the FDA Ban DIY Nicotine Base. Yes... Yes the Could.
In Fact, RJ Reynolds is asking the FDA to Restrict ALL Sale of e-Liquids to "Closed System Devices". In Lay Terms, that means Non-Refillable Cartos.
Yup. I can never remember the exact letters. Thx for providing the link.
It's just a weird situation when consumers are more concerned, motivated and more aware of what's happening then the business' are. Usually it's the reverse. It feels very frustrating to have to depend on local business in order to protect our right to vape when many of them are so clueless.
The answer to that has been the formation of Vaping Malitia, who are more aggressive and do charge dues to fund various projects. If people want more involvement on a local level, that's the organization to join in addition to CASAA.
"Direct action" is the name of the game. If you think something needs doing, don't look to others but do it yourself. These corporate types look to stomp movements out through typical hierarchal structures like they are familiar with. They can not wrap their brains around or get a grasp on more organic structures like true grass root movements where everyone acts as if they are an organization within themselves with no one single leader. Organizing laterally, fannng out, word of mouth - person to person is slippery and gets through. In order for that to work people need to be willing to take direct action and not wait for someone else to do it for them. If you want more lobbying, be a lobbyist and visit a legislator, call their office, drop off a starter kit so at least they know what they look like. Take direct action. Spend your money where they support CASAA and SFATA and VM. Ask businesses if they support those organizations and let them know you expect them to take an active role in protecting your right to vape. That's direct action. Get non smoking friends and family to join CASAA - numbers do count and CASAA's membership should be 100x's higher than it is.
I don't know much about NRA's organization, but it appears from the surface, they have found a way to incorporate consumers, business and manufacturers under the same umbrella and evade complaints that they are a front group (although that complaint still exists - it's marginalized). I don't know if that would work with vaping since public health agencies have been so successful marginalizing CASAA as a front group with no evidence required. It makes me wonder if it makes a difference what CASAA does or doesn't do. However that's not up to me.
American Vaping Association formed to be the media wing, also accepts donations, and have been successful in placing key media articles that give our point of view. I consider them the rapid response group to negative articles in NYT (as an example) and check their Facebook page frequently for what's breaking in the media.
I don't know if there is a sticky somewhere in the new members section that explains all these different organizations.
In the end it is all going to come down to dollars. If only things that were known to cause harm you were allowed to be banned or restricted then cigarettes would have been banned years ago. The story they feed us with cigarettes is that high taxes will keep "children" from buying them, but they are still as available now as they were fifty years ago. Regardless of what the FDA says, politicians are not going to kill a "Cash Cow".
The "final story" will rest with politicians and their two needs. One to be reelected and the other to raise tax dollars to spend on unnecessary things that will get them reelected. If they play their cards right they can get millions if not billions from BT for their reelection efforts while reaping cigarette like taxes on e liquids or nic base.
I still have a lot of confidence in the American people to innovate. When tobacco taxes were increased many of us turned to RYO. Suppliers made a "cigarette cut" a "pipe cut". This does require us to be proactive. Stock up on enough Nic to get through the "shake down" period and innovation will follow.
The "final story" will rest with politicians and their two needs. One to be reelected and the other to raise tax dollars to spend on unnecessary things that will get them reelected. If they play their cards right they can get millions if not billions from BT for their reelection efforts while reaping cigarette like taxes on e liquids or nic base.
I still have a lot of confidence in the American people to innovate. When tobacco taxes were increased many of us turned to RYO. Suppliers made a "cigarette cut" a "pipe cut". This does require us to be proactive. Stock up on enough Nic to get through the "shake down" period and innovation will follow.
So they will ban glass cylinders, threaded rods, o-rings, coton string, resistance wire and batteries?
That will never work, and as long as kangertech doesn't sell nicotine there is nothing they can do.
They could even sell them as novelty items like sex shops do.
That will never work, and as long as kangertech doesn't sell nicotine there is nothing they can do.
They could even sell them as novelty items like sex shops do.
This all just makes me sick. I hate politics! I hate the way big corporate america throws their money around to get their way. And what's worse is the politicians will always follow the money and BT and BP know it. Sick!
I have been struggling to put how I feel into words. I'm at a loss, perhaps for the first time ever, with how to voice my feelings. Here goes, but it may not be coherent.
I feel like the deeming regs DO affect everyone, if they are passed as proposed. There are 40 million Americans smoking.There can't be too many people who don't know at least one smoker who could benefit from a PV if the truth about these products were being told. Even if someone claims they don't know anyone who smokes, they certainly are affected at one time or another by second hand smoke and cigarette butts littering their communities. PVs create much less waste and are a harm reduction alternative to combustible tobacco products. Pushing through the regulations as written removes the ability for these people and their loved ones to even consider a better option for themselves and those around them. That is not freedom.
I suppose what I'm trying to get at, is how can we present our case to the masses so they can see these devices in a positive light and back that up with accurate reporting of scientific studies while calling out the people who are just looking for a payday? Is it too late to win the court of public opinion? Is it too difficult to track down who greases who's hands in the FDA, "public health" and congress and call them out on it? Is it too late to create simple to understand, easy to distribute info graphics that illustrate the real truth about PVs to the public? Does this stuff exist already? I think we're relying on solid information, but it's being presented in a way that is too scholarly to expect the average American to take notice of. How about a video similar to the one posted above, but from a pro-vaping point of view? "You've heard plenty of media outlets reporting on the "dangers" of ecigs, but here's what they're not telling you about those scary chemicals they've found. THEY'RE FOUND IN HIGHER LEVELS IN THE AIR YOU AND I BREATHE EVERYDAY!!!"
I am also utterly sick of the "for the children" argument. Seriously, I'm one of those children ANTZ tried to protect from smoking and guess what, they failed. If a kid wants to do something badly enough, no law, regulation, fine, or age requirement is going to stop them. I KNOW this to be true because I was one of those children who smoked for the first time when I was 13 (in 1995, after all the education on the dangers of smoking). My parents would steal my cigs and destroy them and I still smoked. Friends would steal packs and give them to me in exchange for coffee, then I started walking to the corner store that never carded anyone. I smoked for 16 years before I saw the light and switched to a PV. Please, don't take this to mean that I want kids to have easy access to PVs and e liquids, I'm all for the regulation that prohibits sale to minors and holding those accountable who fail to abide by this reg.
My apologies for the long reply. I just need to put out there how I'm feeling about all of this and hope to find some resources to help the cause.
I feel like the deeming regs DO affect everyone, if they are passed as proposed. There are 40 million Americans smoking.There can't be too many people who don't know at least one smoker who could benefit from a PV if the truth about these products were being told. Even if someone claims they don't know anyone who smokes, they certainly are affected at one time or another by second hand smoke and cigarette butts littering their communities. PVs create much less waste and are a harm reduction alternative to combustible tobacco products. Pushing through the regulations as written removes the ability for these people and their loved ones to even consider a better option for themselves and those around them. That is not freedom.
I suppose what I'm trying to get at, is how can we present our case to the masses so they can see these devices in a positive light and back that up with accurate reporting of scientific studies while calling out the people who are just looking for a payday? Is it too late to win the court of public opinion? Is it too difficult to track down who greases who's hands in the FDA, "public health" and congress and call them out on it? Is it too late to create simple to understand, easy to distribute info graphics that illustrate the real truth about PVs to the public? Does this stuff exist already? I think we're relying on solid information, but it's being presented in a way that is too scholarly to expect the average American to take notice of. How about a video similar to the one posted above, but from a pro-vaping point of view? "You've heard plenty of media outlets reporting on the "dangers" of ecigs, but here's what they're not telling you about those scary chemicals they've found. THEY'RE FOUND IN HIGHER LEVELS IN THE AIR YOU AND I BREATHE EVERYDAY!!!"
I am also utterly sick of the "for the children" argument. Seriously, I'm one of those children ANTZ tried to protect from smoking and guess what, they failed. If a kid wants to do something badly enough, no law, regulation, fine, or age requirement is going to stop them. I KNOW this to be true because I was one of those children who smoked for the first time when I was 13 (in 1995, after all the education on the dangers of smoking). My parents would steal my cigs and destroy them and I still smoked. Friends would steal packs and give them to me in exchange for coffee, then I started walking to the corner store that never carded anyone. I smoked for 16 years before I saw the light and switched to a PV. Please, don't take this to mean that I want kids to have easy access to PVs and e liquids, I'm all for the regulation that prohibits sale to minors and holding those accountable who fail to abide by this reg.
My apologies for the long reply. I just need to put out there how I'm feeling about all of this and hope to find some resources to help the cause.
They made a pretty penny killed my family of 5
BT, BP, you are losing one war, now you come for us
I'm not an evil man, couldn't hurt a fly
I'll see you in hell ....ers, by and by.
This, our industry, is none of your business, NONE
On 9/11/11 did you sleep tight with Congress
As I held my 63yo brothers hand at 3am to comfort as he died
He was all I had left. I couldn't even cry.
Or my mother, Christmas '93 sucked the life out of me
If I had a rocket launcher some son of a ....... would die.
I'd never do it. You kill, not me.
No truth, no morals, still respected from the cash you wield
Want your cake and eat it too just because you can?
Graduate Harvard Law dozens to defend against
A hopeless smoker who died before his natural end.
This is not America, just like it never was.
When my cancer is postponed by our industries grace
Finally death knocks on my door of misery and death
My 11 pounds of ash and bone
will be scattered in the lobby of RJR's home
Where devils in Armani suits kill for fun
Yeah, devils in Armani suits kill for fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUliUWMrMZA
And us..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYjBQKIOb-w
And nothing
Will keep us together
We can beat them
For ever and ever
Yeah, we can be heroes
Just for one day.
BT, BP, you are losing one war, now you come for us
I'm not an evil man, couldn't hurt a fly
I'll see you in hell ....ers, by and by.
This, our industry, is none of your business, NONE
On 9/11/11 did you sleep tight with Congress
As I held my 63yo brothers hand at 3am to comfort as he died
He was all I had left. I couldn't even cry.
Or my mother, Christmas '93 sucked the life out of me
If I had a rocket launcher some son of a ....... would die.
I'd never do it. You kill, not me.
No truth, no morals, still respected from the cash you wield
Want your cake and eat it too just because you can?
Graduate Harvard Law dozens to defend against
A hopeless smoker who died before his natural end.
This is not America, just like it never was.
When my cancer is postponed by our industries grace
Finally death knocks on my door of misery and death
My 11 pounds of ash and bone
will be scattered in the lobby of RJR's home
Where devils in Armani suits kill for fun
Yeah, devils in Armani suits kill for fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUliUWMrMZA
And us..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYjBQKIOb-w
And nothing
Will keep us together
We can beat them
For ever and ever
Yeah, we can be heroes
Just for one day.
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The federal government learned well the "Protection Racket" from the Mafia.
We're going to protect you from any unknown hooligans, so this is what you owe us. Otherwise, no telling what will happen to your business, your family, yourself......IRS anyone? How about FDA or NSA or FBI? We've given the government enough tools to "shake" us down at will, and now to disregard the Constitution whenever convenient.
We're going to protect you from any unknown hooligans, so this is what you owe us. Otherwise, no telling what will happen to your business, your family, yourself......IRS anyone? How about FDA or NSA or FBI? We've given the government enough tools to "shake" us down at will, and now to disregard the Constitution whenever convenient.
MamaRymes..I enjoyed reading that post. Some are trying to get the word out even in today's misinformation age. Greg Gutfield,Dana Perino, & Kim Guilfoyle of The Five made some awesome comments regarding the politics behind bans.
I particularly enjoy Gutfield and kudos to him for putting this out!
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Chooch I couldn't agree more. It seems now a days the government can't even follow and often breaks it's own laws. The old Washington DC Two Step.The federal government learned well the "Protection Racket" from the Mafia.
We're going to protect you from any unknown hooligans, so this is what you owe us. Otherwise, no telling what will happen to your business, your family, yourself......IRS anyone? How about FDA or NSA or FBI? We've given the government enough tools to "shake" us down at will, and now to disregard the Constitution whenever convenient.
No... No they Will Not. Nobody Said they Would. And why would the FDA run around and try to do this Anyway?
If you want to Regulate e-Cigarette use in this country, wouldn't it be Easier to just Regulate the Sale Nicotine in Liquid form instead?
I love this clip and he articulates very well exactly what BT and BP and the ANTZ are doing and why. Its too bad many people here at ECF wont watch it because its on FOX
I am astounded that there is not more political uproar over this issue from our end. When you think of the biggest social issues in the country over the past 6 months and even before that, is gay marriage. I couldn't c care less either way, I just want it to be decided on and out of the way so more important issue come front and center and can be dealt with (unemployment, foreign policy, healthcare, debt, economy, you know the things that actually effect everyone in the US). The CDC and Census did a survey and found that less the 3% of the US population is gay...3%!!!!!! Yet it is a GIGANTIC issue that everyone talks about and decides elections and bull..... while smokers and vapers and people dying of smoking related diseases barely have a voice! and there are millions of us!! waaaaaaaay more than 3%
I just wanted to put it in perspective, that we should be doing more, and have a voice and be fairly represented. I dont know what further action to take but we need to do something more than writing letters and making phone calls and I am open to ideas
I just wanted to put it in perspective, that we should be doing more, and have a voice and be fairly represented. I dont know what further action to take but we need to do something more than writing letters and making phone calls and I am open to ideas
One thing to Not Be Confused on.
There is a Fundamental Difference a Consumer Group and a "Trade Organization".
Consumer Groups, like CASAA, act Primarily on behalf of Consumers. Whereas a Trade Organization acts on Behalf of it's Members such as OEM's, Wholesalers and Retailers.
I'm not saying that these Two Types of Groups can not share Common Ground. Most Times they Do. But if a Conflict ever Arises between what is Best for the Consumer and what Best for OEM's - Wholesalers - Retailer, the Consumer Group will side with the Consumer and the Trade Organization will Side with It's Members.
i want to get to a point that's been brought up in this thread concerning health and safety claims.
while it is true that e-cigs cant make such claims,neither can any other consumer product with out
going through the governments lengthy,ultra expensive,arduous and probably unattainable testing processes.
read any label for vitamins,joint braces,that guys inverted chair and,even food. you will find the words,may or could,
not can or will. phrases like,contributes to a healthy bodily function not,makes your bodily function healthier.
this is not for consumer protection. its to protect BP and the whole medical establishment et al the exclusive
rights to make that claim. the only reason vitamins are still on the market is because they have an ally
in big food. big food knows if BP gets its claw hooks into medicinal vitamins the hallway on the other side of that door
leads right to them.
its not just us its everyone.Big Business and government are in the process of literally controlling or trying
to control the air,water,food and anything else we consume as if everything where a tobacco product.
its also interesting to note they only need the slimmest asinine assertion something may be harmful to
go hog wild while, we need tons of proof its absolutely 100% safe.
regards
mike
while it is true that e-cigs cant make such claims,neither can any other consumer product with out
going through the governments lengthy,ultra expensive,arduous and probably unattainable testing processes.
read any label for vitamins,joint braces,that guys inverted chair and,even food. you will find the words,may or could,
not can or will. phrases like,contributes to a healthy bodily function not,makes your bodily function healthier.
this is not for consumer protection. its to protect BP and the whole medical establishment et al the exclusive
rights to make that claim. the only reason vitamins are still on the market is because they have an ally
in big food. big food knows if BP gets its claw hooks into medicinal vitamins the hallway on the other side of that door
leads right to them.
its not just us its everyone.Big Business and government are in the process of literally controlling or trying
to control the air,water,food and anything else we consume as if everything where a tobacco product.
its also interesting to note they only need the slimmest asinine assertion something may be harmful to
go hog wild while, we need tons of proof its absolutely 100% safe.
regards
mike
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