Big Tobacco's involvement in e-cigs; good or bad?

[Orobas]

It's sticky. On one hand, the newport folks own blu now, last i heard philip morris and swisher are getting in on it. If they have something to lose, you can bet your ... they'll use their bottomless purse and legion of lawyers to make them see things our way.

Conversely, we have RJ Reynolds proposing bills to ban online sales of vaping stuff in NC without expensive and likely worthless age verification software.

I'm just glad I'm well supplied either way to weather out any potential vaping doomsdays, though i will still send letters within my own meagre sphere of influence.

 

[Whosback]

RJR is responsible for writing bills, that we (CASAA) are fighting, all over the US. They ARE trying to get Internet sales banned which would mean death to a lot of small Mom & Pop businesses. Also, the ones that might survive, RJR (BT) is trying to get any places selling eliquid to HAVE to have a tobacco license to sell that liquid, since it is classified as a tobacco product and falls under the FDA jurisdiction.

I don't know where other BT companies stand, but RJR is certainly trying to get our kind of vaping out of their way. That would put them in a great position to corner a huge market with their Vuse type of ecig.

No, I don't think BT is on our side at all.

Right on sista!

Seriously though. I have said this before and I will say it again. BT is our enemy, they do not care if we vape or smoke so long as they get their money. They will do whatever it takes to dominate the market and if they destroy it and every single vender who you have relied on, who has provided you with the gear/ juice/ supplies you love, then they are happy to do it.

Why compete when you can get laws passed that eliminate the competition for you?

BT is not and never will be on the side of anyone but their profits. Stand with the people who are in this fight with us. The small venders, the mom and pops.

The CASAA has given us the power to actually stand a chance even against the big players like BT and BP. We stand together we can keep vaping in the hands of US and not in the hands of some board of people who have been happy to kill their customers and their children for decades.

Yeah I know there are not many windmills in this thread, and I sound like I should be standing on a soapbox, but how are we going to achieve anything if not together?

 

[Cool_Breeze]

What about the traditional tobacco industry aligned with or vs. China, Inc..?

 

[locustacl]

I live in the south surrounded by tobacco farms. The farms are owned by the farmer..when the crop is ready they hang the leafs to dry or cure until they turn bright yellow. Then they take it to tobacco warehouses for people to grade the tobacco then auction their crops off. The farmers say that they don't male much money off of it anymore

 

[CanIVap3InHere]

Awesome question! I have anticipated this since the day I learned about vaping. Big Tobacco is sure to become increasingly involved over the next decade, and it will come with both pro's and con's as others have stated. Here is how I think it will aid/hurt us as vapers:

Pro's

-E-juice and accessories will be readily accessible to any vaper, at convenience stores/ smoke shops.
-Vaping will become more acceptable and protected in legislation and lobbying
-More funding will come into play with the experimenting of new mods/ juices

Con's

-Price's will increase, at least with mainstream juices and hardware
-Less versatility (possibly), Big T will run the market
-Big T will run small companies out of business by sheer convenience and trust by providing skewed statistics
-There may be a prohibition of juices and/or accessories and mods not produced by Big T
-Big T will probably add a few "harmless" chemicals into their blends of juice.

It all depends on the stance Big T takes on this industry really, they are not known for being customer-friendly though. There may always be Mom and Pop sites and B&M's out there, but Big T will surely weaken them at the very least. Things will probably get expensive because with most business going to the big guys, small time shops will have to survive somehow. Legislation is not on our side, and I fear that e-juice will be regulated heavy and only certain distributors able to produce and sell them. We are in a new age.. one that is filled with many grey area's, and vaping is a sure sign of it. Although I would not like to see Big T's involvement with the vaping world, I feel it is inevitable. Maybe we will see Big T step away from it's hold on smokers partially, as more and more realize the harm of analog cigarette's. I doubt it, but I am curious to see how this all plays out.

 

[SharonMM]

ETA: NEVERMIND blonde moment! Carry on.

 

[jimbol]

I live in the south surrounded by tobacco farms. The farms are owned by the farmer..when the crop is ready they hang the leafs to dry or cure until they turn bright yellow. Then they take it to tobacco warehouses for people to grade the tobacco then auction their crops off. The farmers say that they don't male much money off of it anymore

It used to be THE cash crop. I raised it myself for a while but Maryland did a buyout and the local tobacco auction barn closed. People still raise it but nowhere near as many as before.

 

[tnt56]

Off topic/. Yea my girls and I are ok. Still searching for survivors in Moore ok. Schools took a direct hit and sill trying to find the little bodies. Brings tears to my eyes. I'd like to thank all the other states for coming to Oklahoma to help.

/off topic warning

I am so glad to see you posted and are ok. I have been watching the news of the devastation in your state. Glad to see you are ok.

 

[jaamzhow]

I know many feel empowered due to forums and 'likes' and the CASSA. But then I read at the top of this very page how NY pols want to tax and regulate; where the hell does this stuff originate. How does one feel so empowered to suggest such legislation. Thats what I'm talking about when I suggest that big T brings some political clout. If big Tobacco can keep a dangerous product on the market for a hundred years, simply because it is profitable, then surely they can advocate for ecigs; a much safer alternative. Dancing with the devil...

 

[BrooklynCharmer]

BT is engaging in this civil war in order to shape the playing field to maximize their own benefit. For example, RJ Reynolds going after online sales benefits their existing distribution networks around the country. They lack the power and infrastructure to compete with their existing products in the online market.

If these attempts to block out internet sales fail, they'll likely start acquiring the most promising electronic cigarette brands just like how companies like Coca Cola and Pepsi have dozens of different soft drink brands so that they can fill different niches or find the most profitable products to push.

Will the consumer win, in the end? It's hard to say. I do hope that we will be able to continue vaping without having insane taxes levied or restrictions on online purchasing, because that would all be insane.

 

[wv2win]

Awesome question! I have anticipated this since the day I learned about vaping. Big Tobacco is sure to become increasingly involved over the next decade, and it will come with both pro's and con's as others have stated. Here is how I think it will aid/hurt us as vapers:

Pro's

-E-juice and accessories will be readily accessible to any vaper, at convenience stores/ smoke shops.
-Vaping will become more acceptable and protected in legislation and lobbying
-More funding will come into play with the experimenting of new mods/ juices

Con's

-Price's will increase, at least with mainstream juices and hardware
-Less versatility (possibly), Big T will run the market
-Big T will run small companies out of business by sheer convenience and trust by providing skewed statistics
-There may be a prohibition of juices and/or accessories and mods not produced by Big T
-Big T will probably add a few "harmless" chemicals into their blends of juice.

It all depends on the stance Big T takes on this industry really, they are not known for being customer-friendly though. There may always be Mom and Pop sites and B&M's out there, but Big T will surely weaken them at the very least. Things will probably get expensive because with most business going to the big guys, small time shops will have to survive somehow. Legislation is not on our side, and I fear that e-juice will be regulated heavy and only certain distributors able to produce and sell them. We are in a new age.. one that is filled with many grey area's, and vaping is a sure sign of it. Although I would not like to see Big T's involvement with the vaping world, I feel it is inevitable. Maybe we will see Big T step away from it's hold on smokers partially, as more and more realize the harm of analog cigarette's. I doubt it, but I am curious to see how this all plays out.

NONE of your "Pros" applies to Big Tobacco being in the market, except in a possible minor way with your second pro. In fact your first pro will be the exact opposite. If BT gets their way, our only eliquid options will be sealed carts in maybe 2 - 3 flavors and low nic levels. And BT has no incentive to dump millions of dollars into new "mods" as models like Blu fit their financial model much better. Analogs are the ultimate in disposables requiring the user to keep coming back for a fresh fix. Models like Blu are the closes to that situation.

 

[jimbol]

This forum has virtually no influence outside of this forum. For almost everyone but us, this doesn’t exist. As to the proposed tax and where it comes from… 75% of Americans neither smoke nor vape nor use smokeless tobacco. The states, especially places like New York, like so-called sin taxes because the majority of people simply don’t care. They don’t have to pay the tax. So the state gets more money. CASSA, at least, gets people into the hearings. It does help. I suggest we worry less about BT and more about our legislators.

A few years back Massachusetts (Connecticut or somebody, I forget) declared a whole neighborhood condemned for Imminent Domain. This was for a commercial development that never actually happened. Anyway, it should have been unconstitutional (according to the text anyway) except the Supreme Court disagreed and they took the peoples land for an average of 90 cents on the dollar from what it was worth. And the fat cats they did it for never developed the site. So whatever city it was lost out tens of thousands of dollars defending it and the people were out their land and the money for fighting it. Plus the city lost whatever property tax they had been collecting on the old neighborhood.

Political Science 101. The government can do whatever it wants then we can sue for cause. If we win they have to stop, fix, or whatever. That’s the constitution. But… It’s also the government that decides if it’s OK. The odds are not in our favor.

 

[wv2win]

This forum has virtually no influence outside of this forum. For almost everyone but us, this doesn’t exist. As to the proposed tax and where it comes from… 75% of Americans neither smoke nor vape nor use smokeless tobacco. The states, especially places like New York, like so-called sin taxes because the majority of people simply don’t care. They don’t have to pay the tax. So the state gets more money. CASSA, at least, gets people into the hearings. It does help. I suggest we worry less about BT and more about our legislators.

A few years back Massachusetts (Connecticut or somebody, I forget) declared a whole neighborhood condemned for Imminent Domain. This was for a commercial development that never actually happened. Anyway, it should have been unconstitutional (according to the text anyway) except the Supreme Court disagreed and they took the peoples land for an average of 90 cents on the dollar from what it was worth. And the fat cats they did it for never developed the site. So whatever city it was lost out tens of thousands of dollars defending it and the people were out their land and the money for fighting it. Plus the city lost whatever property tax they had been collecting on the old neighborhood.

Political Science 101. The government can do whatever it wants then we can sue for cause. If we win they have to stop, fix, or whatever. That’s the constitution. But… It’s also the government that decides if it’s OK. The odds are not in our favor.

The government was beaten back in 2009 when they tried to ban vaping completely. And it was no coincidence that vaping came out on top because the judges hearing the six different arguements were all appointed by the previous administration. As the experts (not us) have stated many times, if we can keep the FDA at bay until there is a new administration, our situation could improve dramatically.

And all of us need to be supporting members of CASAA. I assume you are, right?

 

[jimbol]

The government was beaten back in 2009 when they tried to ban vaping completely. And it was no coincidence that vaping came out on top because the judges hearing the six different arguements were all appointed by the previous administration.

It was beaten back because NJoy sued and, thankfully, won. But we're still waiting for the other shoe to drop. They're trying to get rid of Menthol in cigarettes. To me that doesn't bode well for flavors for us. Heaven forbid we enjoy the flavor of a legal product.

You and others may be right that another administration might make a positive (for us) difference. Then again, it changes every 4 to 8 years so it could be a long struggle.

 

[SharonMM]

You know what? The more I hang out here, the more I think that even if God forbid, the ecig industry falls victim to these political evils, we're still going to be ok. Seems to me, just on this forum alone, at least 3 out of 10 of you seem to be the MacGyver types that could probably craft some sort of PV out of a dead cell phone and a twig, or whatever. They can tax the finished product but they can't tax the know how, or take it away. Plus, if you put it on the market as a PV and take nicotine out of the equation, what can they say? But hahaha savvy resourceful us's will know how to extract nicotine from tobacco on our stoves. The directions are right in the DIY section. It would be like prohibition all over again. If it came down to that, which hopefully it wont. There's always China too. Do you know how much regulated in America stuff I have found on Chinese websites? It's crazy. I have know idea why these things are allowed to fly, but they are. So my point, is that even IF the sale of ecigs is somehow sabotaged by our wonderful government, I believe we could still work our way around it. I never want to touch a cigarette again, but it might be tempting if I didn't have my crutch aka pv.

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2

 

[CanIVap3InHere]

NONE of your "Pros" applies to Big Tobacco being in the market, except in a possible minor way with your second pro. In fact your first pro will be the exact opposite. If BT gets their way, our only eliquid options will be sealed carts in maybe 2 - 3 flavors and low nic levels. And BT has no incentive to dump millions of dollars into new "mods" as models like Blu fit their financial model much better. Analogs are the ultimate in disposables requiring the user to keep coming back for a fresh fix. Models like Blu are the closes to that situation.

Pro #1- If Big T is in the market, you will be able to stumble into any gas station and get a vaping device. That makes them more readily available. I never said they would be high-end mods.. disposibles still allow you to vape.
Pro #2- If Big T is in the market, you bet your .... that vaping will become more mainstream and politically accepted.
Pro #3- If Big T is in the market, there will be more money pumped into juice studies, even if it's only "2-3 flavors at low nic strength"

I fail to see how my points are unrelated to Big T being in the market?

 

[wv2win]

It was beaten back because NJoy sued and, thankfully, won. But we're still waiting for the other shoe to drop. They're trying to get rid of Menthol in cigarettes. To me that doesn't bode well for flavors for us. Heaven forbid we enjoy the flavor of a legal product.

You and others may be right that another administration might make a positive (for us) difference. Then again, it changes every 4 to 8 years so it could be a long struggle.

They won because of those judges. These judges saw that the current administration was out of line.

 

[wv2win]

Pro #1- If Big T is in the market, you will be able to stumble into any gas station and get a vaping device. That makes them more readily available. I never said they would be high-end mods.. disposibles still allow you to vape.
Pro #2- If Big T is in the market, you bet your .... that vaping will become more mainstream and politically accepted.
Pro #3- If Big T is in the market, there will be more money pumped into juice studies, even if it's only "2-3 flavors at low nic strength"

I fail to see how my points are unrelated to Big T being in the market?

With the restrictions that BT wants applied to vaping, there is no so-called "pro" that is good for us. Vaping a 4mg nic POS disposible is not a "pro". And I don't see how anything BT does will ever been seen as "acceptable", politically or otherwies. Vaping being associated with BT is not the perception we want to present. And who will accept a study done by BT with their long history of deceit???

My point was/is, your "Pros" are all "cons" for vaping.

 

[wv2win]

You know what? The more I hang out here, the more I think that even if God forbid, the ecig industry falls victim to these political evils, we're still going to be ok. Seems to me, just on this forum alone, at least 3 out of 10 of you seem to be the MacGyver types that could probably craft some sort of PV out of a dead cell phone and a twig, or whatever. They can tax the finished product but they can't tax the know how, or take it away. Plus, if you put it on the market as a PV and take nicotine out of the equation, what can they say? But hahaha savvy resourceful us's will know how to extract nicotine from tobacco on our stoves. The directions are right in the DIY section. It would be like prohibition all over again. If it came down to that, which hopefully it wont. There's always China too. Do you know how much regulated in America stuff I have found on Chinese websites? It's crazy. I have know idea why these things are allowed to fly, but they are. So my point, is that even IF the sale of ecigs is somehow sabotaged by our wonderful government, I believe we could still work our way around it. I never want to touch a cigarette again, but it might be tempting if I didn't have my crutch aka pv.

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2

All they have to do is make it impossible to get nicotine and then everything else becomes a moot point. Unless you want to turn into a criminal as there will be a very costly blackmarket that could land you in trouble.

 

[SharonMM]

All they have to do is make it impossible to get nicotine and then everything else becomes a moot point. Unless you want to turn into a criminal as there will be a very costly blackmarket that could land you in trouble.

Are you offering??

Jk, I jest. I'm simply saying that if/when the time comes that extracted nicotine is unavailable and/or taxed to death, I am comforted knowning that the extraction process is something I can do myself. I dont think BT is looking to ban tobacco.

Hopefully, it will never be a crime to extract the nicotine out of perfectly legal tobacco... But you never know. This is America. Isn't opium/opiates/...... made from poppy seeds?