Chinese clones Rant / Discussion

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Jman8

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What makes China different? Well they aren't afraid of just making an exact copy without deceiving you. Branding products is the oldest ball and shell game out there. None of them actually worry about copyrights or patents any more. They all have teams of lawyers that can manipulate the way any law reads. JMHO

Mostly addressing the bolded part.

My primary thought on that question is that China is not different with what the discussion is about in essence. Apart from the essence, they are just the prime target that gets stereotyped into being collective counterfeiters in the world market. But IMO, there are possibly (I would think likely) legitimate designers in China who could just as well have their products counterfeited. And plausible that it could be a US company that is counterfeiting the original designer based in China. So, for me, the principle is more important than this being a China - US thing, as if China is always the bad guy and US is always the good guy.

Earlier, I thought of another way of addressing the main point, but wasn't sure if I'd be breaking some forum rule in the process. My thought was to copy another person's post in this thread, but not quote them. Pass it off as if I am saying the same thing, without changing anything. Perhaps, I could insert a comma somewhere in the post where the originator didn't, and later claim it wasn't an exact replica. But even this wouldn't probably be an effective way to make the point. If we all on ECF got paid for each original post, then it would be a very good way to make that point.

To me the philosophical, and therefore ethical, points that are in play are:
A - establishing a reputation based on branding, and having that associated with value of a product (or goods sold).
  • When that is mimicked with very similar logos, designs on the surface, plus with virtually the same product design, it is stealing that reputation. Personally, I believe everyone reading this cares about this in their own way, and has a stake in it that would get fairly emotional for each individual if their 'path' was seen as crossed without permission. IOW, if I was able to steal your reputation in whatever it is you produce, then sell it as if it were my own, and that I share at lower cost, with same value; then, I'm confident you would likely be emotionally distraught over it. Especially if buyers were like, 'we don't care, we just want it for less money.'
B - having wealth determined by money, which relates to
C - Accumulating wealth / earning a living

Take B and C out of the picture, and stick only to reputation, and I still see A as a huge issue for most people, but not all people. Add money back into the picture, and I would say it is an issue for all people. Because B and C exist for pretty much all people, then it is challenging to be too hard on the clone distributor as they are participating in the system as best as they can with what they feel is, to some degree legitimate.

I don't really see A as all that tricky, but have to reiterate what I said in post 103, "pretty sure I'd buy a clone and also sure I'd be cognizant about the hypocrisy involved, by me."

I just don't know if I could come onto a forum and pretend otherwise and still be honest with my self about the principle of the matter.
 

Nameless_1

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This whole discussion reminds me of the '70s. At the time, everything made in Japan was considered pure crape and bad for the economy. Then, in the '80s, they started making better and better products (think Sony Walkman). Nowadays, Japan produces some of the best high end electronics.

Until recently, everything made in China was considered utter crape and bad for the economy. And then, more and more I see some quality stuff being produced there.

And the wheels keep going round and round...

I keep telling my younglings: the only way to compete is for us to out-innovate them. You cannot keep the wheels from turning.
 

stumpfreeman

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You improve something and put your name on it you win. You make it cheaper or the same and use their name and/or logo, then you should be shut down. In my work if you do this you can be sued for damages as well as all the profits you made. Then you have to destroy the copies. that is the way it works here in the US

Yes, I understand that, but a copy is a copy, different branding shouldn't make a difference. Honestly, which do you buy? Advil or some generic ibuprofen? Both do the same thing, same milligrams......

I don't think generic ibuprofen is an improvement on Advil, but it still gets sold without any laws being broken. How does this happen in a country that works the way you say it does?
 

pt91

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Yes, I understand that, but a copy is a copy, different branding shouldn't make a difference. Honestly, which do you buy? Advil or some generic ibuprofen? Both do the same thing, same milligrams......

I don't think generic ibuprofen is an improvement on Advil, but it still gets sold without any laws being broken. How does this happen in a country that works the way you say it does?

Does your generic advil say advil on the packaging? Generics are one thing and there are time limits on medicine patents.
 

pt91

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This whole discussion reminds me of the '70s. At the time, everything made in Japan was considered pure crape and bad for the economy. Then, in the '80s, they started making better and better products (think Sony Walkman). Nowadays, Japan produces some of the best high end electronics.

Until recently, everything made in China was considered utter crape and bad for the economy. And then, more and more I see some quality stuff being produced there.

And the wheels keep going round and round...

I keep telling my younglings: the only way to compete is for us to out-innovate them. You cannot keep the wheels from turning.


Until recently, everything made in China was considered utter crape and bad for the economy. And then, more and more I see some quality stuff being produced there.
True. The global economy is not static. As the Chinese labor rates go up and we demand a faster product delivery/cycle, more manufacturing comes state side. It is a trend and it will continue. Vietnam is the new China but it is developing too. It just keeps moving based on labor rates.
 

Myrany

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Right but no amount of breeding can turn a wolf into a cat. And if there were slow evolutionary changes, where are the fossils of the in between creatures? What evolved into the cats? Where are the fossils between what they were before cats existed and the actual cats? They don't exit. We are expected to take it on "faith" that they did exist in order to explain evolution. Faith is faith regardless of what it is trying to explain.

As someone that has studied a great deal of geology and Paleontology I am going to jump in with a rough reason why we do not have fossils of all the links in evolution.

In a nutshell we do not have them because the odds of ANYTHING dying in a place with the exact correct characteristics to preserve the remains as a fossil are slim.

Then the odds that our dynamic planet over the course of time does not demolish that rare preserved critter are even slimmer. Wind, Water, pressure, temperature, Shifts in rocks and earthquakes ALL destroy fossils constantly.

We will never have a complete fossil record because it is impossible for one to exist.

The best we can do Is take a look at characteristics and bone structures and take an educated guess. Before Archaeopteryx was found there were Paleo people looking at the skulls and hip bones of certain dinosaurs and seeing the similarity to birds. Then the connecting fossil happened to be found, Archaeopteryx.
 

stumpfreeman

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Does your generic advil say advil on the packaging? Generics are one thing and there are time limits on medicine patents.

It was more of an example. The packaging is very similar, the only reason it is a little bit different is because the generic company doesn't want to get sued. Actually it is more likely that both are made at the same factory for 2 different companies. So are you saying that if an exact nemesis replica came in a different box than the original Nemesis, it would be OK?
 

pt91

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Mostly addressing the bolded part.

My primary thought on that question is that China is not different with what the discussion is about in essence. Apart from the essence, they are just the prime target that gets stereotyped into being collective counterfeiters in the world market. But IMO, there are possibly (I would think likely) legitimate designers in China who could just as well have their products counterfeited. And plausible that it could be a US company that is counterfeiting the original designer based in China. So, for me, the principle is more important than this being a China - US thing, as if China is always the bad guy and US is always the good guy.

As a product designer that has been in and out of China since 1990 I can say that their will be innovation out of China in the future but now it is not their culture. They do not have the opportunities that we have but most of all they are not raised in a world where they are the inventors. Korea, Twn, Singapore, etc. are not like China and look at their work. Population of China dwarfs the others but we have yet to see innovation from China in PVs. Why?
 

Coldrake

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I wonder how many people that hate products made in China realize that is where their iPhone was made. Besides Provari are there any other US made PV's? Are there any US made atomizers, clearomizers, or cartomizers?
There are several U.S. made APVs. The ZNA, Vapor Shark DNA, and the one I just bought, Futura. There are also U.S. made atomizers and cartomizers but I don't remember what they are. Clearomizers, none that I can think of.
 

pt91

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It was more of an example. The packaging is very similar, the only reason it is a little bit different is because the generic company doesn't want to get sued. Actually it is more likely that both are made at the same factory for 2 different companies. So are you saying that if an exact nemesis replica came in a different box than the original Nemesis, it would be OK?

I would agree that if the Nemi was produced in the same factory by the same owner and he/she decided to not put the logo/serial number on one but put it on the higher priced one and market them both....he/she would own both markets. Pretty smart. One step past that is to take revenue from the cheaper product (sell the rights without the consumer knowing it) and sell your own superior product. Pretty smart. To be a small company that makes a small profit and have 100x your output ripped off in another country with your logo....not good. but what is your recourse?
 
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ScottP

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There are several U.S. made APVs. The ZNA, Vapor Shark DNA, and the one I just bought, Futura. There are also U.S. made atomizers and cartomizers but I don't remember what they are. Clearomizers, none that I can think of.

Thanks. I had not heard of those. I will look into them. I would still be interested in learning the name of some US atomized as well if anyone else knows of any.
 

Nameless_1

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And as their rates goes up, they take more pride in their work and the quality goes up. And the wheels...

Didn't know about Vietnam. Going to do some research tonight. Thanks for the heads up!


Until recently, everything made in China was considered utter crape and bad for the economy. And then, more and more I see some quality stuff being produced there.
True. The global economy is not static. As the Chinese labor rates go up and we demand a faster product delivery/cycle, more manufacturing comes state side. It is a trend and it will continue. Vietnam is the new China but it is developing too. It just keeps moving based on labor rates.
 

stumpfreeman

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Thanks. I had not heard of those. I will look into them. I would still be interested in learning the name of some US atomized as well if anyone else knows of any.

Think ZEN! There is also the Patriot RDA, I think the Omega RDA is also American made.

There is also Super-T, and EA.
 
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pt91

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And as their rates goes up, they take more pride in their work and the quality goes up. And the wheels...

Didn't know about Vietnam. Going to do some research tonight. Thanks for the heads up!

what happens is the mid management from the developing country is sent to the third world country with cheap labor to "teach" the process. Doesn't come quickly usually but it does happen eventually.
 

ScottP

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As someone that has studied a great deal of geology and Paleontology I am going to jump in with a rough reason why we do not have fossils of all the links in evolution.

In a nutshell we do not have them because the odds of ANYTHING dying in a place with the exact cIorrect characteristics to preserve the remains as a fossil are slim.

Then the odds that our dynamic planet over the course of time does not demolish that rare preserved critter are even slimmer. Wind, Water, pressure, temperature, Shifts in rocks and earthquakes ALL destroy fossils constantly.

We will never have a complete fossil record because it is impossible for one to exist.

The best we can do Is take a look at characteristics and bone structures and take an educated guess. Before Archaeopteryx was found there were Paleo people looking at the skulls and hip bones of certain dinosaurs and seeing the similarity to birds. Then the connecting fossil happened to be found, Archaeopteryx.

Oh I totally understand why we will never have a complete fossil record. I do find it odd that we only find pre-evolutionary and post-evolutionary fossils and never any mid-evolutionary fossils. What I mean is we only find bird like dinosaurs and birds but never anything in between. We find dinosaurs that had cat like behaviors and we find cats but never anything in between. Of ask the species on the planet and with all the fossils we have found, don't you think we should have found at least some in between fossils?

Don't get me wrong I am not saying evolution is completely wrong. I am an odd one that believes evolution and the big bang theory are right but the missing pieces are explained by creationism. In other words both are correct. I believe that the reason we don't find in between fossils is because they in fact do not exist. Sudden leaps of evolution are the proof of divine intervention. So in a nutshell evolution is how things were created. Same with the big bang. Whatever went bang had to come from somewhere and something had to make it go bang. The act of creation was the big bang. I see both theories as confirmation of the other. They both have holes in them that are completely explained by the other..like two pieces of a puzzle.
 
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Myrany

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Oh I totally understand why we will never have a committee fossil record. I do find it odd that we only find pre-evolutionary and post-evolutionary fossils and never any mid-evolutionary fossils. What I mean is we only find bird like dinosaurs and birds but never anything in between. We find dinosaurs that had cat like behaviors and we find cats but never anything in between. Of ask the species on the planet and with all the fossils we have found, don't you think we should have found at least some in between fossils?

Don't get me wrong I am not saying evolution is completely wrong. I am an odd one that believes evolution and the big bang theory are right but the missing pieces are explained by creationism. In other words both are correct. I believe that the reason we don't find in between fossils is because they in fact do not exist. Sudden leaps of evolution are the proof of divine intervention. So in a nutshell evolution is how things were created. Same with the big bang. Whatever went bang had to come from somewhere and something had to make it go bang. The act of creation was the big bang. I see both theories as confirmation of the other. They both have holes in them that are completely explained by the other..like two pieces of a puzzle.
Last estimate I saw said we have a fossil record of less than 20% of all the species that ever lived. What are the odds that a transitory form that likely did not exist long (on the geologic scale) are in that 20%.
 
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