Clones... Why?
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I'm torn on clones. I'm an artist who does photo-realistic drawings in graphite. I don't ever use a reference photo that I didn't take myself or wasn't supplied by a client (giving me de facto permission to copy it). To draw from someone else's photo (or painting) and then sell it for profit is not only unethical, I could be sued for copyright infringement if I did.
On the other hand certain items are very hard to find originals of... seems like most of the mods I'd be interested in are sold out everywhere.
On the other hand certain items are very hard to find originals of... seems like most of the mods I'd be interested in are sold out everywhere.
I lack the words to even begin to express my contempt for the above statement. You personally use open source software all the time, most of the internet runs on it.
Sounds like a misunderstanding of what open source really is...
Nothing wrong with clones. A lot of them are very reliable and even if you get a clone that doesn't work, you can usually buy two more and it will still be cheaper than am authentic product. A lot of people choose them because they either can't afford them or they feel that authentic products are overpriced. I'm sure there are other reasons, but those are the biggest two.
Samuel Silva's ability to do photo-realistic with ballpoint pen has interested me quite a bit from the time I first saw how well the pictures were rendered. There is certainly a great level of technical proficiency involved in pulling off photo-realistic works, I respect that skill very much.
I reserve creating art for personal relaxation now, and like to work with watercolor and ink, though in the past I did like scratch board, prismacolor, and graphite. As a job art is not for me, I hope for you it is both enjoyable and profitable.
It is something of a challenge to find the mod that suits ones own image of beauty, especially when past mods seem to fit the bill. Still there are mod makers coming up with new stuff every day, I'm looking to buy a Mr. Frost F22 (Snow Flake) as soon as the first run becomes available. My fingers are crossed that I will be able to do so when the time comes, it is a bit like playing the lottery, and that is part of the thrill I suppose.
I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things, it's a quaint little phrase that works well enough in many circles, a cheap graphite stick or pencil may have hard spots or soft spots that mark differently than you expect them to and ruin what you were trying to produce, or when you started learning made it vastly more difficult to produce anything worth while. The same goes for watercolors and inks, pigments are not cheap, and cheap paint and ink are always scrimping on percentage of pigment and smoothness too. Mainly in an effort to reduce costs so the product can be sold at a lower price.
Unfortunately the distinction between a clone and a real (mod of your choice) is not going to be very drastic with regards to performance or even build quality when the clone is a 1:1 copy. In some cases, the copper Nemesis clone for example, the clone may well out perform the original by a wide margin. In this case it is a function of the material not the design.
My personal preference is to spend my money on an original mainly because of my own art background and interest in art as a whole. Most of my collection of art is original or limited edition prints signed by the artists, there are a few Dali prints which I am unsure of their authorized or not nature I presume they are authorized but am not able to prove such. If that makes me a hypocrite then so be it (it does not alter my opinion).
I can say very much that I am most able to enjoy the originals, there is nothing quite like an original bit of art to look upon. From a creek stone sculpture I purchased in Haiti to a graphite piece by an artist named Spector, each has it's own story and is special beyond the money paid for them.
I'm sure you will decide on what best suits your own needs,
Maurice
look up the Kayfun 3.1 original and then check out the HCigar3.1 from Luxor vapes... you will then see why we buy clones
You like China more than you like Russia???
You like fake stuff???
You actively support stagnation in the marketplace???
You like other people to pay for product development???
You reward theft over creativity???
You want the product now and a real one isn't available ... oh, never mind they are both available ... scratch that.
You aren't going to spend more than $36.50 USD on one???
129,95 € is too complicated to convert into your monetary system???
You have no problem converting 129,95 € to your monetary system, your just not spending that kind of money on anything right now???
As long as it looks and works the same you'll buy from the lowest cost supplier???
You'd by it for even less if you found it for sale used???
You don't really care why it costs what it does, it saves you money???
You have plenty of money you just get a kick out of bending originators over???
The originator (blanked) your dog, cat, kid, mate, car, gold fish, etc.??? (I'm totally A-OK with this reasoning by the way)
O-MY-GAWD do you know how long it takes to stand on the street corner and collect $179.69 USD??? (yep, about 90 minutes at $2.00 a light change)
Dude I'm a kid I can't afford that!!! (36 lawns cut at a $5 markup above the cost of gas, 30 minutes a lawn, 18 hours, 4 lawns in your neighborhood once a week, that's 9 weeks)
That kind of money isn't in my budget!!! (wait 5 saving periods for the fake and it can be done)
I want it now and it isn't in my budget!!! (drink water not; soda, beer, wine, milk, juice, that might help cut out an entire saving period) (combine driving trips, drive slower, take public transportation, buy generic brands, cut your own hair, cut coupons, donate plasma, hair more than 10" long? sell it, put junk up on ebay with a cool story and a very low reserve, collect cans, sell cans, cut other peoples hair, sell their hair, invite friends over, have a huge pillow fight on the couch, collect lost money, buy candy bars, go door to door selling them at a profit.)
I'm to proud to do all that!!! (I know ... it's hard work)
I already do all of that and I'm still broke!!! (again, wait 5 saving periods for the fake and it can be done, plus you'll have a valuable asset to sell if times get even worse)
What the heck is a savings period??? (how ever long it takes you to gather $36.50)
I so get it now
Maurice
There are very many things Maurice doesn't seem to understand. Perhaps that's because he's too busy living in his fantasy world where hypotheticals rules the day, and the market, the people spending money and buying things in free association and trade, has no place.
What he doesn't understand is that there is a very good chance that these small time modders who make these wonderful originals may not have a market to exist in if it weren't for clones. They certainly cannot support the entire e cig market by themselves. If they could, clones wouldn't exist, or would be a far smaller factor in this market space (there are likely 100 MOD clones bought for every one original MOD purchased).
Does he really think that the booming e cig market would exist as a thriving, worldwide community that's carving out a significant economic space which has helped over a million people quit smoking cigarettes (and perhaps many more) would exist it it weren't for cloners filling the rapidly growing demand for advanced vaping products? The statistics show that vapers progressively buy more and more advanced gear as they progress away from cigarettes. After a while digi-cigs aren't enough, so we move to an ego system. After a while we seek MODs that will help provide a quality vape at a price point we can justify. If we all had to rely on original modders making MODs on order to fill demand at a price point that we can afford, many of us would still be sucking down burnt leaves.
But only those lucky/financially well off enough to afford an original (even Youde originals are close to $60 which is out of the budget for many vapers spending their hard earned money on a device) would be afforded the opportunity to buy a vaping experience that keeps them off of cigarettes.
You know, because the "artist" and his "intellectual property" are more important than filling the the void in the market left by modders not producing nearly enough MODs in order to satisfy demand for over a million people to do whatever they can to keep from dying.
Stagnation in the market? How is buying a clone of a sold out mod going to cause stagnation? They've already sold everything they made
Im really disgusted with that comment too. This who support open source believe human knowledge belongs to the world to further advancement and creativity. It has nothing to do about getting things for free. Most cases they take donations, which many gladly give what the feel the product is worth. Not some arbitrary set price. Besides not all open source software is free. You pay for the software and get the source and right to modify and sell along with it.
Regardless, those who support it feel that not sharing IP is wrong, immoral, and unethical. There opinion and beliefs are different but no less valid than the opinion that copying is wrong.
As for laws being made. A law doesn't make something ethical or not. There are plenty of laws that go against what is commonly considered ethical and moral.
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Maurice, you need us to keep buying clones, otherwise you can't feel so proud of yourself for having an original. I think the only person you are truly trying to convince is yourself. I imagine you saying "good job Maurice, you made a real impact today when you paid 5 times the function price of a clone. It's ok that I decided to waste my money that really should have been spent bettering the community or feeding the homeless since I am such a morally outstanding person because I supported the IP of someone who probably could care less what I put my batteries in. It's fine that I throw dollars out the window because I can get on the internet tonight and broadcast how great I am and how worthless they are... good job Maurice. Good job" the you reach around and pat yourself on the back.
Seriously dude, you're either a troll or a ....., and I can't help but assume it's the latter...
Seriously dude, you're either a troll or a ....., and I can't help but assume it's the latter...
My fantasy world where hypothetical rules the day happens to do my family and me very well, I suppose that is proof enough that people still spend money based on my ideology.
You seem to forget that clones are by their very nature second to originals, thus there can be no market for them if originals do not exist. This is one of those things that is quite self evident and can't exactly be argued.
Mechanical mods make up a very small portion of the market, interestingly enough the cigalike has the largest market share, there is a graphic around here that shows where we as vapers are spending our money. It is rather enlightening to this exact portion of the topic.
Digital devices make up a far larger portion of the market, and have their own issues with cloning.
Still, mod makers have very little impact to the greater masses ability to vape or not to vape, this was illustrated earlier in the conversation. A mechanical mod however cheap costs more to get you vaping than any number of the digital devices available today. The budget minded vaper or potential vaper is not well served by purchasing a mechanical mod and supporting equipment.
I absolutely do believe the market would survive perfectly fine without clones, a clone of a mod or any other device is aesthetically and/or functionally similar for no good reason other than lazy development of a product. It has been said over and over that clones both look and function the same, great ... change the look enough to make it an original, add diversity to the market. Functionality is not that different between any of the mechanical mods, and electronic devices are fairly similar in their features that we end up right back at the aesthetics.
Originals from a factory able to work on a volume such as those who produce clones now can price things just as cheaply, without impacting the market of people looking to quit smoking.
The "artist" and his "intellectual property" are more important than clones existence, simply because there is no need for clones to exist in the first place.
A persons decision to quit smoking should not be fettered by their vanity, if a pretty enough mod does not exist do we blame the artist for that persons failure to quit smoking? Certainly we do not. That is nothing more than transference of blame from self to others, an all to common theme in this thread. It isn't anyone's fault if a smoker dies from complications secondary to smoking except their own. The choice to smoke is just that, a choice. When you choose to partake in a dangerous activity that can result in your death, that death becomes a risk you willingly accept.
We all need to own our stupid decisions and quit trying to place blame on others. I smoked from a crazy early age, it was stupid, I didn't even really like it. Who do I blame that on? The hot girl that smoked and I wanted to impress? Maybe I can blame my mom and step dad, except they never made me smoke. I, me, the dumb schmuck typing this wanted to impress a girl, that's why I started smoking. So I'll blame my every woe on Debbie ... No! I accept full responsibility for my own actions and decisions.
People are blaming everyone else but themselves, I'm fat because of Mc Donalds, no your fat because you eat way more calories than you use, I'm addicted to smoking because BT added so many chemicals to cigarettes, no your addicted because you started using an addictive substance, I can't afford an original because the designer priced them way too high, no you can't afford an original because you don't have enough money, I can't afford top shelf e-liquid because the blenders are price gouging, no you can't afford top shelf e-liquid because the world does not revolve around your desires.
People are confusing needs with desires, you don't need anything to quit smoking except a strong enough desire. Does the whole vaping thing help, I think so, but just because I think so does not make it a necessity. I've quit as long as 6 months with no help, because I wanted to quit. When my will to quit waned I started up again, see how that works, I'm taking ownership of my going back to smoking.
Maurice
Last time I visited the Dali museum in Florida, they sold very nice clones of Dali's masterpieces in the gift shop.
They don't devalue the work at all, in fact they allow the work to be seen by millions of people who would not know the original even extisted were it not for the clones....errr "prints".
I even have a clone of the constitution.
My camp knife costs more than most legit mods.
Money isn't the issue as much as how one spends it.
They don't devalue the work at all, in fact they allow the work to be seen by millions of people who would not know the original even extisted were it not for the clones....errr "prints".
I even have a clone of the constitution.
My camp knife costs more than most legit mods.
Money isn't the issue as much as how one spends it.
And those prints can be considered authorized (I assume) much in the same way any original mod produced past the first is.
Prints of an original painting differ somewhat from mod clones.
A Dali clone (for the sake of this conversation) might be more akin to an actual painting done by a very skilled counterfeiter. Though that would be easier to identify than a cloned mod.
Money spent on the prints directly supports the preservation of the originals in that museum if I understand it correctly.
Maurice
Prints of an original painting differ somewhat from mod clones.
A Dali clone (for the sake of this conversation) might be more akin to an actual painting done by a very skilled counterfeiter. Though that would be easier to identify than a cloned mod.
Money spent on the prints directly supports the preservation of the originals in that museum if I understand it correctly.
Maurice
Even with the most liberal definition of a clone the examples of a print of an original canvas painting or steam car to a Tesla are bogus. A clone is an exact replica of the original and meant for the owner to not be able to even tell the difference.
Mod clones for the most part are actually counterfeit's. Regardless of which side of the debate you are on for or against clones. They are really counterfeit's of the original mod.
Mod clones for the most part are actually counterfeit's. Regardless of which side of the debate you are on for or against clones. They are really counterfeit's of the original mod.
This whole holier than thou/clone-shaming approach isn't making any clone-buyers cease buying clones; most of us simply don't care. I'm sure most of us can afford authentics, we either just choose not to buy them or are selective with how to use our money. I'm cheap as hell regardless of my level of income, so unless I have some sort of emotional connection with a brand, I'm buying the best quality product at the lowest cost I can find it at.
Now if you excuse me, I'm gonna go download some music and get a Chipotle burrito bowl with a tortilla on the side so I can have two meals.
Now if you excuse me, I'm gonna go download some music and get a Chipotle burrito bowl with a tortilla on the side so I can have two meals.
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The only exception to what you said is that, I think the word counterfeit implies that you are trying to pass something off as the real deal (From Websters: Counterfeit: made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive). For the most part, sellers are usually upfront about their products being copies.
While I'm not crazy about the idea of clones, I did just order a copper/red Stingray clone. This will be my first mech and I wanted to stay in the $50 range. If there were more interesting options for non-clones in that price range I would have been interested, but besides Smoktech and a couple from Youde, there doesn't seem to be much. I do agree that the word "clone" is used because it sounds better than the other options.
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