Clones... Why?
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that term doesn't apply here. The clones are not being passed off as originals. So his terminology is correct.
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Actually, a clone would be an exact copy- same materials, markings and manufacturing processes. There would be absolutely no differences. Counterfeits have small dissimilarities...
You can have this conversation without the personal attacks and jabs or this thread will be closed.
Enough - be civil.
Enough - be civil.
They use the word clone because it sounds new and trendy. Replica would be a more accurate term.
I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things, that might not sound logical till you lean into a cheap wrench and it breaks. Or when your just a little sketchy threads lock up and strip out. Or when your mixed Nemesis clone gold/brass plating comes right off (personal experience).
It's a bit like buying fake gold jewelry, girls buy this crap up in droves, and it all ends up in some dump. Have you ever seen a girl toss real gold she purchased for herself? Heck no.
There have been arguments that you can buy many multiples of any mod by purchasing clones, and true enough you can. I only have two hands though and at most could only vape two at a time, so if that's what I'm going to do I'd rather do it with two that are real and yes to some extent worth something down the road.
Surely some clones are better than originals, I can't deny the logic in this very clear fact; however much like a mint Colt 1911 kinda sucks as a weapon besides a more modern 1911 I'd much rather have an original in mint condition for its actual value will hold if not continue to increase.
More so I just don't like clones, or more to the point cloners. Buy them all you want, and be clear that it isn't you some of us don't like, it is the folks that clone that tick people off.
Vape what you have, as long as you can. I'm off to see this CASSA thing.
Maurice
If you copy the logo and do not stamp the product with replica somewhere on it, its a counterfeit.
Just like if you buy a counterfeit dollar bill knowing its a counterfeit, it's still a counterfeit.
Knowledge does not obviate the action.
If it did you could say to someone I'm going to murder you.
Then when you murdered them it isn't murder because they knew you were doing it...right
As for market forces most of the original sell out just fine.
I had grown bored with this thread, but the mental antics of people trying to put a good face on what they are doing always amuses me.
If they didn't want to counterfeit just build a clone they would not copy the logo.
Just like the iPad copies that are called clones.
They don't copy the logo.
If they did it would be called a counterfeit and all hell would break loose.
And yeah Apple has copyright protection, mods don't.... but all that changes is the consequence of the action.
Not the action.
Simply put if the clone makers didn't want to counterfeit, they wouldn't copy the logo.
After all why I copy the logo?
Just like if you buy a counterfeit dollar bill knowing its a counterfeit, it's still a counterfeit.
Knowledge does not obviate the action.
If it did you could say to someone I'm going to murder you.
Then when you murdered them it isn't murder because they knew you were doing it...right
As for market forces most of the original sell out just fine.
I had grown bored with this thread, but the mental antics of people trying to put a good face on what they are doing always amuses me.
If they didn't want to counterfeit just build a clone they would not copy the logo.
Just like the iPad copies that are called clones.
They don't copy the logo.
If they did it would be called a counterfeit and all hell would break loose.
And yeah Apple has copyright protection, mods don't.... but all that changes is the consequence of the action.
Not the action.
Simply put if the clone makers didn't want to counterfeit, they wouldn't copy the logo.
After all why I copy the logo?
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Clones... Why?
"Because I don't mind stealing, and I like the value I get from money I had to spend."
Is really all that needs to be said.
I was in this camp prior to 4/24/14. I'm still mostly in this mindset. The same mindset, that when viewed through the scope of those who just luuuuuuv clones, appears to be arguing from position of "holier than thou."
I don't get the problem with admitting to clones as theft. I really don't. Speeding is against the law. But I speed. Sometimes I enjoy speeding. Most people I know speed. Sure it can be dangerous (and therefore immoral), but sometimes it is necessary to actually keep up with traffic. Even with that stipulation or others that I could make for "why speeding is okay?" I still realize it is against the law and not ashamed to admit, openly, that I break the law, by speeding.
I recall being in another thread like this with similar debate and doing the research to realize there are actually two types of counterfeit markets that exist in the world. The clone one and the other one where buyers are tricked unknowingly. Both are generally considered bad for overall economy, and yet both occur. Regardless of anything I may say against the cloning market, it is still going to happen, and still going to be a very vibrant market. I also realize that many of the same arguments in this thread that support buying clones could be used for why sell counterfeits. You may personally be against that sort of transaction, but guess what, they are still going to exist.
Which is why I've somewhat changed as of 4/24/14. Because with enough people willing to be in this market for clones, I feel a little bit more confident that in shared reality there is no way vaping products will be regulated out of existence. Perhaps, maybe, sort of, out of 'legal existence,' but who cares when the underground market for clones/counterfeits is vibrant? Seriously, why would there be a worry about devices in the future when we know full well that all someone has to do is come up with design, and there will be plenty of manufacturers who will gladly take that design, and sell things in way(s) that bypass perfectly legal channels?
"Because I don't mind stealing, and I like the value I get from money I had to spend."
Is really all that needs to be said.
I was in this camp prior to 4/24/14. I'm still mostly in this mindset. The same mindset, that when viewed through the scope of those who just luuuuuuv clones, appears to be arguing from position of "holier than thou."
I don't get the problem with admitting to clones as theft. I really don't. Speeding is against the law. But I speed. Sometimes I enjoy speeding. Most people I know speed. Sure it can be dangerous (and therefore immoral), but sometimes it is necessary to actually keep up with traffic. Even with that stipulation or others that I could make for "why speeding is okay?" I still realize it is against the law and not ashamed to admit, openly, that I break the law, by speeding.
I recall being in another thread like this with similar debate and doing the research to realize there are actually two types of counterfeit markets that exist in the world. The clone one and the other one where buyers are tricked unknowingly. Both are generally considered bad for overall economy, and yet both occur. Regardless of anything I may say against the cloning market, it is still going to happen, and still going to be a very vibrant market. I also realize that many of the same arguments in this thread that support buying clones could be used for why sell counterfeits. You may personally be against that sort of transaction, but guess what, they are still going to exist.
Which is why I've somewhat changed as of 4/24/14. Because with enough people willing to be in this market for clones, I feel a little bit more confident that in shared reality there is no way vaping products will be regulated out of existence. Perhaps, maybe, sort of, out of 'legal existence,' but who cares when the underground market for clones/counterfeits is vibrant? Seriously, why would there be a worry about devices in the future when we know full well that all someone has to do is come up with design, and there will be plenty of manufacturers who will gladly take that design, and sell things in way(s) that bypass perfectly legal channels?
Because buying clones isn't against the law, speeding is. I admit to speeding too, but I wouldn't buy clones if they were illegal. Things are not equal. There are some laws I'll bend the rules on, such as speeding, and take my chances. Other laws I would abide by even if they weren't laws. Fot example if murder was legal, I still wouldn't do it.
I don't find clones in any way harmful to the original designers, because they still sell every single one they intend to, for the price they want. Buying clones doesn't hurt them so I don't find it morally wrong. You are welcome to see it differently, as is everyone else. My point is that what you find morally wrong, others may not. Morals are not cut and dry. You have to do what you personally feel is right, regardless of what other people think.
Neither side is wrong. You are not a bad person for doing something you don't feel is morally wrong. There are numerous hot topic moral issues that people can't agree on. This one is no different.
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From http://www.inta.org/TrademarkBasics/FactSheets/Pages/Counterfeiting.aspx:
How are clones not counterfeiting? Just because someone TELLS you it's a counterfeit doesn't make it any less a counterfeit - and it's still illegal. Just because a law is not being enforced (yet) doesn't mean it's not illegal.
hmmmm, Jman8, no. all the other hot topic moral issues in this country like abortion, gay marriage, etc, have to do with rights on both sides.
Saying that clones are wrong doesn't impede someone's right to buy cheap mech mods.
It just says that you can't copy someone's logo and put it on your cheap mech mod, is all.
Saying that clones are wrong doesn't impede someone's right to buy cheap mech mods.
It just says that you can't copy someone's logo and put it on your cheap mech mod, is all.
Again you are welcome to your opinion. I don't expect to change your, or anyone else's view on the issue. I'm simply stating why I feel the way I do about it.
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As I posted some time back, it does make it not a counterfeit, by definition.
Counterfeit : made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive : forged <counterfeit money>
The last thing a legit Modder wants is a court to decide what designs are legally owned and what is being copied.
They will all b out of biz.
"They put my unauthorized logo on a clone of the mod design I stole and changed slightly!"
Lmao
Ya don't hold your breath for this to be rushed into a courtroom.
They will all b out of biz.
"They put my unauthorized logo on a clone of the mod design I stole and changed slightly!"
Lmao
Ya don't hold your breath for this to be rushed into a courtroom.
That argument makes no sense. If there is no intent to deceive, why are the logos copied (and often serial numbers)? Why does the Tree of Life mod have USA stamped next to Element's logo when it's made in China? Why is there a serial number engraved in the bottom cap, just like the original?
And yet there is no intent to deceive?
I'm going to have to say that selling clones is illegal.
I too wouldn't murder if it were legal, but having a law against it doesn't stop murders. Saying it is wrong, doesn't stop murders.
Agreed, which is why I brought up the murder example above. We both agree we wouldn't do that even if it were legal, but in this world, it is entirely up to the individual to determine if murder is right or not. There may be consequences for that individual, just as establishing a pervasive cloning market has consequences on the economy.
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