Darwin...Is it really different?

[boz]

I think it's a cool device alright but I also think it's a little over the top for the normal vapor. I got maybe $40.00 in mine and it works good enough for me. Tells me the volts and amps. I don't need to know any more than that.

Well, in all truth who needs to know anything a meter tells you? All personal quantification in vaping comes from what's going into your mouth and whether or not you are able to vary it to suit by whatever means. As I said earlier VV is good enough and all that is needed now is a cheap pulsing VV mod that can double your battery life. Battery life is the next big thing.

How about someone works on a screw on VV pulsing adaptor, Id buy that in a flash. It doesn't have to be thin, it can be as thick as the battery body so plenty of room to insert the electronics. Come on someone, I want one.

 

[muttSRT]

It's kind of funny. A guy comes on here, has both a vv device and the Darwin, tells you its different, and everyone still wants to say, its the same thing. The Darwin IS different. Period.

Now I don't have an electronics degree, like all of you out there seem to have, so I can't come on here and quote any electronic laws, but what I can tell you, This is not my first mod, I am not a new guy to the vaping world, and the Darwin IS different than ANYTHING I have used. Why is it different? I don't know. Even if i did know and posted a schematic, all of you would come on here and say that it wouldn't work because of this law or that law or blah, blah, blah.

I am going to try, one more time, in the simplest of simple language, to try and make you nonbelievers understand.

We are going to take 3 devices, a standard non adjustable device, a vv device and the Darwin. (everyone with me so far?)
Now we are going to get 2, just 2, different atty's. #1 will be a standard atty and #2 will be a high resistance atty. For those that know all the electrical formulas and are following along, lets say #1 is 3.0 ohm and #2 is 4.5 ohm, assuming its the ohms you read for resistance?

Now, lets say the non adjustable device is 6v, the vv device is dialed in to 4.8volts, and the Darwin is set at 10 watts. If we take each of those 2 atty's and screw them onto each device, whats going to happen?

the non adjustable device (6v) with the 3.0 ohm resistance atty is going to be different than when it has the 4.5 ohm atty. That's pretty obvious.

the vv device (4.8v) with the 3.0 ohm resistance atty is going to be different then when it has the 4.5 ohm atty. Again obvious.

go ahead, I know there's a couple guys with electronic degrees that want to do the math.....we will wait........







........ok, is everyone caught up now?...Good...

Now, take the Darwin put on the 3.0 ohm atty and put on the 4.5 ohm atty, what happens? The Darwin makes an internal adjustment ( i say internal because it happens on the inside of the device, i know there is probably a proper name that i am omitting, but please forgive me and lets just call it an internal adjustment) and the result is (drum roll please)....the same...it doesn't matter if the atty is 3.0 or 4.5 ohms...the device makes all needed adjustments to give the user a consistent vape.

Can the non-adjustable mod do this? no, because non-adjustable means, well it can't be adjusted.

Can the vv device do this? automatically, no it cant, BUT the user can adjust it to give the same result.

So, is the Darwin different? yes, cause it automatically gives the user the same end result, regardless of atty resistance.

Is the Darwin magic? NO....if you get more vapor from a 901 than you get from a 510, using the Darwin will NOT make the 510 produce vapor like a 901. What the Darwin will do, is supply the identical heat/or wattage to both atty's, regardless of each atty's resistance.

Does everyone need this device? probably not. Those that are happy manually adjusting every time they change their atty or cartos, this device that does it for you, is probably not for you.

People who are happy with the poor performance of their standard rechargeable batteries, you know, the peak in the beginning with fresh charged batteries, and the lag in battery performance as the batteries get weaker, this device is not for you.

The people who cant read the very first post and realize that the shape, size, color and graphics of the tester units are not what the finished product will look like, then please, even as simple as the Darwin is to use, it still might be a little to complicated for you, so please, go put on your helmet and dont forget your water wings, cause it looks like rain is coming...this device still might be a little too advanced for you.

Who would the Darwin be good for? Anyone who wants to finally have consistency with a device, regardless of atty resistance or battery life left, this device would be perfect for you.


*** Please keep in mind, the electronic aspect of how the Darwin works, I am totally lost on it. I have talked to the manufacturer and tried to re-state what he has told me. I think when I posted earlier that it controlled the amps/voltage independently, thats not exactly right. I think it has more to do with how it reads resistance and makes adjustments in voltage/amps together, by either raising or lowering to give a consistent vape might be more accurate. I dont have an electronics degree, obviously, so some of my terminology might be a little off.

This entire thread is supposed to be my review of the Darwin. I didnt design it, I didnt make it, I didnt even come up with the idea. I just was one of the people who got to test it. What I have stated so far, is my OPINION of the product. Right or wrong, you can agree or not agree, but it's still my opinion. I have tried to relay as correct of information as I can. Some of it might get lost in the translation from the manufacturer to me, but I think what I have stated so far, to be pretty much on target. The manufacturer can NOT post in the review thread but is allowed to post on the suppliers forum. If you have direct questions or theories that I am just not getting right, maybe asking them directly might be your best bet.

 

[AngusATAT]

Here is the difference between variable voltage and variable power.

On a VV device, set it to your favorite voltage. (For an example, we'll use 4.5v). This is the unloaded voltage. Add your atomizer of choice. As soon as you hit the button, you aren't going to be vaping at 4.5v because of the resistance of the atomizer. This is loaded voltage. As you use your atty, the resistance is going to change, and is going to be added to even by the juice you are using. Your device won't compensate for it. You'll be vaping closer to 4v. Technically, it's not really an issue, as you can always adjust your VV device to raise it back up closer to 4.5v.

On a VP device, set it to your favorite wattage. (For an example, we'll use 10w). Loaded voltage doesn't matter. Add the atty, and the wattage will still remain 10w. Keep vaping, and as the resistance changes, the device will compensate and maintain 10w to the atty. That means every vape is consistent and identical. It is noticeable, even if you are used to a VV device.

Is it a huge difference? Honestly... I don't think so. But there is a difference. It's not going to replace VV mods. I'm certainly not going to tell everyone that they need to discard all of their other mods and get the Darwin.

But would I recommend it to a new vaper who wants to step up their vaping to the next level, or just to someone looking for a really good adjustable mod? Absolutely. This mod is so smart, the user doesn't have to be. It's as user-friendly as it gets... adjust the dial until your vape is perfect. No need to buy extra batteries and chargers. The "kit" is the unit itself. It can work as a passthrough, and charge while vaping. The onboard batteries are large, quite a bit more powerful than the lithium ion batts we're all used to, and will last a very heavy vaper all day. There is no such thing as an inconsistent vape with it. Yes, the beta units are ugly, but that is changing.

Yes, it's not going to be a cheap mod. But seeing what I have seen, the quality of the mod, how well it works, and hearing about the warranty they are talking about using with it, I think it will be worth every penny.

(Just using the disclaimer again: This is just my personal opinion. It comes from Brian the vaper, and not Angus the ECF Forum Manager.)

 

[Switched]

Being an ex Control Technician I can understand the concept of a feed back loop from the controlled variable changing the output of the manipulated variable to reach/maintain the desired set point. No one needs an extended degree or a background in electricity to understand what is going on within Darwin. It is a moot point.

Now some have thrown in a different atomiser in the equation. No one here will argue that an 801 doesn't vape like a 510, and a 510 doesn't vape like an 901 and, that dialed in wattage (sweet spot) will need to be found for each differing class of attys. But, I believe that if we compare apples to apples and not try to compare apples and oranges, the results will always be the same, regardless of build or resistance. The only change that I can foresee is the draw (airy or not) and the latter would apply to all devices.

The darwin in the control industry is also known as a set point device with feedback loop, whilst the VV devices out there are set point devices period. Read, no feedback.

The feedback from the controlled variable (wattage) is constantly being read by the board and compared. Should the read result (dialed in wattage) deviate from set point at any time, an error signal is then generated + or -. This error signal is then applied to the manipulated variable (current) to correct the error and return the system once again to balance. The dialed in wattage. This type of control is know as PID <---- no need to get into that.

If Darwin works under these principles, then yes the design is brilliant. There are 2 negatives wrt this device. The price point which although unannounced will be substantial and the fact that it uses electronics. The longevity of the electronics and control system will determine if Darwin will be worth its price point.

Wrt different class of attys, well lets just say that for juice A 8.24 watts are required to bring out the fullest value of juice A. In theory, once that value is known, the satisfaction should be delivered every time regardless which atomiser is utilized.

In closing, this is a control system and Ohm's law only plays a small but important part of the overall equation.

 

[AngusATAT]

"If it were any smarter, it would write a book, a book that would make Ulysses look like it was written in crayon. And it would read it to you."

 

[anjilek]

Looks like the perfect PV IMHO. I didn't read the entire 11 pages, but I deal with Ohm's law daily in my work. Wattage is the key to consistent anything in electronics. Voltage and Amperage are nice indicators, but resistance can change with humidity, temperature, even some funny twists in the wiring. Wattage is directly proportional to the heat and making it consistent should make vapes more consistent. From day one vaping (not long ago ), I wondered why mods were obsessed with HV and LR and not wattage regulation. Don't get me wrong, the former work, and probably great for most people, but the techies around here are looking for total control and wattage is key IMO.

 

[AngusATAT]

Update! The RedneckDarwin has gone through a major upgrade!

For the ultimate in stealth vaping, I just cover the screen with another piece of camo duct tape.

 

[Shel]

On a VV device, set it to your favorite voltage. (For an example, we'll use 4.5v). This is the unloaded voltage. Add your atomizer of choice. As soon as you hit the button, you aren't going to be vaping at 4.5v because of the resistance of the atomizer. This is loaded voltage. As you use your atty, the resistance is going to change, and is going to be added to even by the juice you are using. Your device won't compensate for it. You'll be vaping closer to 4v.

Not trying to throw a cog in your wheels, and I really appreciate your in depth explaination. The Darwin sounds awesome!

The ProVari claims:
"The ProVari has a regulated output which keeps the voltage the same with each puff regardless of your remaining battery power. As the battery drains the device will keep the voltage consistent giving you the perfect vaper all day long"

While I realize this does NOT address the issue of changing attys (and frankly, I simply don't change my attys very often), it would seem that ProVape has addresse the issue of getting a different vap as the batteries begin to run down, no?

My only concern or minor issue of the Darwin is the lack of a replaceable battery.

If I go out of the house for the full day, say, I take my kids to Disneyland, leave in the early morning, and I'm out till midnight, then another hour driving home, there's no place to charge a device, and no way to carry a spare battery with me.

Granted, this doesn't happen most days, but it does happen about 3, 4 days a month, and seems like it would be a (minor) issue, unless the Darwin lasts a full day, meaning 15-16 hours.

It IS a slick device!

 

[Switched]

*SNIP

The ProVari claims:
"The ProVari has a regulated output which keeps the voltage the same with each puff regardless of your remaining battery power. As the battery drains the device will keep the voltage consistent giving you the perfect vaper all day long"

*SNIP

FWIW every regulated voltage and VV mod does this, until you have reached the depletion of the batteries is use.

Wrt the darwin batts, it will be interesting to see what it comes with. Should it be proprietary, then yes that also becomes a minus.

 

[AngusATAT]

While I realize this does NOT address the issue of changing attys (and frankly, I simply don't change my attys very often), it would seem that ProVape has addresse the issue of getting a different vap as the batteries begin to run down, no?

You'll still run into the issue of a drop in voltage when you connect an atomizer. If you really want to vape at 4.5v, you'll have to set the voltage even higher, taking into consideration the resistance of the atty. Also it doesn't address the increase in resistance as the atomizer gets heat applied to it. Please don't think I am knocking the Provari in any way, as from what I have seen, it looks like a great mod, and the guys over at Provape are known to produce quality stuff. I know they put a lot of thought and research into what they make. I'm just discussing what happens with any VV device. I have a Buzz, and I love it, but the theory remains the same.

My only concern or minor issue of the Darwin is the lack of a replaceable battery.

If I go out of the house for the full day, say, I take my kids to Disneyland, leave in the early morning, and I'm out till midnight, then another hour driving home, there's no place to charge a device, and no way to carry a spare battery with me.

Well, in total, I got just over 16 hours of vaping time yesterday on my Darwin, and that was vaping the bajeezus out of it all day long. I doubt I would be chain vaping like that while out and about at Disneyland. Also, it has a standard mini-USB port for charging, so you could charge in your car, or even use the device like a passthrough and charge while vaping.

 

[Rocketman]

Every time i think, well this is my last post in this thread,
I come back for more.

I heard people talk about "lasts 15 hours". Folks, an 18650 doesn't last some people 15 hours.
15 hours compared to WHAT?

And, I have never heard so much discussion on ohm's law in my life.
I find that somewhat humorous, so keep it up, sort of like a "Dr. Electro" comic book.

 

[AngusATAT]

I heard people talk about "lasts 15 hours". Folks, an 18650 doesn't last some people 15 hours.
15 hours compared to WHAT?

A 2400mAh 18650 in a mod will last me around 24 hours. What other kind of comparison are you looking for?

In the 16 hours, I went through 7ml of juice. I normally go through 5ml a day.

 

[NebulaBrot]

I have been patiently following this thread, and others. I am honestly amazed at the nay-sayers. Quite frankly, if this is not for you - why not move along? Why do you continue to come back here and try to convince those of us who ARE interested to not be? Is it really necessary to come in here, and continue to come back in here, attempting to discredit this device and approach to a consistent vape?

How would you feel if someone kept telling you to not buy that nicer car you were researching in the forums when you can get a lower price on a basic car that will still get you from point A to point B?

I just do not see any constructive contribution by negative posting about a new upcoming device - especially when there are many tech savvy and competent people in here who do like this idea and who ARE interested. Granted, I may not be one of those electronics experts but I can certainly see there as many, if not more, electronically tech savvy people in here who ARE interested than there are tech savvy nay-sayers.

So, to those of you who are not interested - please stop trying to rain on the parade for the rest of us.

And, in a side note to you Nuck - I am really surprised and disappointed. As a modder and former vendor you ought to be ashamed. You lead a lot of people on with your V4 and then just drop them all like hot potatoes. You certainly would not like another modder/vendor trying to invalidate something you were working on and introducing to the vaping community. You disappointed a lot of enthusiastic supporters (me included) and now you come in here trying to invalidate this device, this tech approach, and our enthusiasm for this? If you don't like and/or want one - build one you do like, buy something else, and by all means please feel free to move along and allow us to enjoy our enthusiasm.

I have no issues with discussing the pros and cons of this or any other device but some of you are not participating in productive and constructive discussion - you are simply attempting to discredit and dampen the rest of our spirits. Perhaps you need to find something more positive to do with your time and intellect(s). Or, perhaps you just need more fiber in your diets.

OK, EOR and back to CONSTRUCTIVE discussions about DARWIN!!

Happy

 

[Rocketman]

A 2400mAh 18650 in a mod will last me around 24 hours. What other kind of comparison are you looking for?

In the 16 hours, I went through 7ml of juice. I normally go through 5ml a day.

Exactly. Thanks Augus, sounds very reasonable. That gives us a perspective on charge life and a comparison that most big battery mod folks can relate too. And by cooking 7ml of juice you were not taking it easy on the thing
So, it seems the processor, maybe running only when vaping, doesn't use up much power. My guess is the 90 to 93% efficiency of a charge pump/flyback regulator mod is cut a few percent by running the processor.

And the recharge time is?

So for those ohm's law experts out there, I'm guessing:
If your 2400mah big battery mod lasts you 3 days , this might will last you 2 days.
If your single 14500, 900mah box mod lasts you 2 days, this will probably last you 4 days.
(charge life claims taken from actual modders posts in other threads)

and if you can suck down an 18650, 2400mah battery in 8 to 10 hours, this will last around 6 hours.

 

[AngusATAT]

And the recharge time is?

Not really sure, actually. I just plug the charger into it when I go to bed at night, and it's charged in the morning.

 

[Switched]

I guess it would depend on the charging capacity of the charger.

 

[Sorrid]

I think it is brilliant and I'm looking forward to see it develop into a finished product.

 

[boondongle]

It it sounds like people are arguing different points here.

The supporters are pointing out that the wattage is the same, no matter what atomizer you put on the device. So the argument is that you find your ideal wattage, then the device handles everything else, and you don't need to mess with it further.

The other side is saying that different atomizers have different ideal wattages, so you'll still need to make adjustments if you switch between, say, a 510 and an 801. So the argument is that you'll still need to make adjustments to the device, just like you currently do with variable voltage mods.

I don't believe anyone is arguing that this device doesn't provide consistent wattage, I think people just have different opinions as to exactly how useful that is. Heck, I don't think anyone is saying that this isn't an advancement in mod technology, it's just a question as to whether they view it as an incremental advance or the be-all-end-all of vaporizing.

Personally, I've found that different atomizers do have different ideal wattages, and using different juices further changes the ideal wattage. So if I buy a Darwin, I'll still need to adjust it when I switch atomizers in order to hit the perfect wattage for each atomizer/juice combination. Still, it definitely seems like a nice advancement to me, and I'll be picking one up if the price point is reasonable for what it incorporates.

 

[Rocketman]

Not me, I think it looks silly with that cheap camo tape on it

 

[AngusATAT]

Not me, I think it looks silly with that cheap camo tape on it

The camo tape makes it awesome. Plus, it wasn't cheap. It was a whole five dollars.