Darwin...Is it really different?

[jimho]

Let's just get a couple of things out of the way, shall we? I never said I didn't understand the electronics. I said I wasn't an expert. More than a subtle differentiation, I think. And while having your EE degree is respectable, I do the same job as every EE in my department, but got my knowledge through a couple of decades of experience rather than going to college for it. So I won't be kneeling before you saying "Sorry master, please don't beat me."

As I have stated before, there is a subtle difference. I've even said that to the average vaper, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference at all. But I would be lying if I said that I didn't notice a difference, and that's from actual use of the device, and not just theorizing about what it can and cannot do. I am very sure that for some folks, it just won't be worth it.

I don't have a "dog in this hunt". I'm not keeping the beta unit that I am testing. I don't have a stake in the company that produces them. I just don't have any reason to make it out to be something that it isn't. I'm also not going to get extremely technical with my reviews. To the majority of people, it would just be a ton of boring gibberish. I'll leave the arguing over technical aspects of the device to the supplier when he's ready to announce them. Until then, I will continue to review it based off of my hands-on experience with it.

I didn't come here to embarrass you or as a troll- I have better things to do with my time. I didn't ask you to kneel down before me although just because you do what other EEs do at your place of business designing power substations doesn't make you qualified as an EE to discuss micro circuit design any more than a nurse at a walk in clinic who dispenses antibiotics is qualified to discuss open heart surgery techniques.

I came here to understand more about this device that's being hyped in other discussions in an attempt to understand what the big deal was about- particularly compared to other newer- particularly PWM devices where it is coming up as an alternative design. I read through a series of comparisons to non regulated devices, and linear regulated devices with no mention or comparison to PWM devices that would be appropriate to it compare to. I stepped into the middle of a discussion about regulating power being superior to regulating voltage and added some clarification based on facts and tolerances that are accepted standards.

your response was rude and dismissive of an explanation I offered and you still haven't responded with any real data- you pulled a quote out of context and dismissed it as opinion and you offered no data to back it up.

This thing has been hyped since October and there are two of them out there as new, revolutionary and completely different... Well, we all expect it to deliver a better vaping experience than traditional non-regulated or linear regulated devices but you guys have done nothing to help anyone understand if it is really different or just another player in the next wave of devices.

Enjoy the rest of your trial, and thank you for sharing your non technical observations.

 

[AngusATAT]

In the interests of getting this thread back on topic, I will reluctantly bite my tongue here and let you feel like you've won. It serves no purpose to play "whip them out and see whose is bigger" on another person's thread (Sorry Mutt!), and it was wrong of me to enter into this debate with you to begin with.

Once the manufacturer allows me to release some of the technical info, you "smart fellers" can tear it apart to your heart's content.

 

[WillyB]

...Ditto- I'm holding a beta of the Provari (I'm allowed to say that now) - it does all of this and vapes consistently from start to finish. I haven't blown a single atty in almost two weeks, today I vaped 15 hrs and just shy of 5ml on a single 18490 IMR- it still is putting out 3.5V just like I set it on its digital display this morning, and I'll bet the IMR is pretty drained right now...

I really don't understand why they call for an IMR. The standard AW1500mAh Li-Ion has a 2C rating which means it should be able to handle 3A while remaining within spec, more than most users will ever need. Your posted posted voltages/ohms were all ≤ 2A. Seeing as the voltage range is listed as '3.3-6.0V' and they say "Amperage Limiting to 2.5 amps", the Li-Ion sounds like the best bet. Seeing as AW's mAh ratings are quite accurate the Li-Ion should provide an almost 40% increase (theoretically) in run times over the IMR. It's hard to believe that the AW Li-Ion "can't flow enough energy" unless the additional circuitry is quite power hungry, but their "ProVari is 95% efficient" claim would seem to allude differently.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

 

[jimho]

I really don't understand why they call for an IMR. The standard AW1500mAh Li-Ion has a 2C rating which means it should be able to handle 3A while remaining within spec, more than most users will ever need. Your posted posted voltages/ohms were all ≤ 2A. Seeing as the voltage range is listed as '3.3-6.0V' and they say "Amperage Limiting to 2.5 amps", the Li-Ion sounds like the best bet. Seeing as AW's mAh ratings are quite accurate the Li-Ion should provide an almost 40% increase (theoretically) in run times over the IMR. It's hard to believe that the AW Li-Ion "can't flow enough energy" unless the additional circuitry is quite power hungry, but their "ProVari is 95% efficient" claim would seem to allude differently.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Great question(s)- first all of my tests were done with nothing more than an ohm meter and a home brewed connector from a dead atty with 20 ga wire leads soldered to the centerpost and outer connector which were run to a breadboard with 10W resistors that I configured to various loads.

Touchy subject- they recommended IMRs- that's what was tested. Let's avoid the IMR vs Protected which is safer argument today- it's been beat to death....consider the the battery safety sticky (i think it's in the ECF Library).... Actually the amperage will go a bit higher than 2.5 - final specs on the cut off aren't out yet ... my guess is that they will approve some of the beefier 18650's (particularly the panasonics) as they certainly have the specifications necessary- assuming they fit....

Also there was some discussion at one point about the internal impedance of LiCo cells that Provape at one time implied might change the behavior of the circuitry- I don't know that it does, but its certainly concievable that it could and I think it's good to check....
I'm sure they'll be testing them after they ship and catch up on some sleep over there.... my guess is they want to recommend the larger protected cells if possible..
Remember- its not that they aren't saying it won't work with other 18650's, they are saying they recommend IMRs....


Not sure which list you were talking about- I had a few. I did test over 2.5A against the battery on a breadboard, although I don't have any vaping needs that push that high.....

Re Efficiency- that's pushed around quite a bit and I'm sure it will be used and abused quite a bit in the future- it's a maximum efficiency not constant- all regulators vary efficiency usually dropping with current and or voltage or both... chip manufacturers publish efficiency curves with chip data - look at a few switching regulators vs standard linear regulators. Switching regulators in general are significantly more efficient than linear regulators- I'm guessing that I see close to that 95% number at lower voltages (i.e. 3.5V) but it does go down as you increase the boost. Haven't worked the math on it. I'm satisfied with the life on the18490's and looking forward to 18650's...

Keep in mind, the provari is able to push 12W out the regulated side- to get 12W out of a 3.xV battery (let's say it could go down to 3.2V)- , it needs to pump as much as 3.75 Amps on the battery side. That would be with 100% efficiency... The power into the regulator has to be > the power out...

There's more to the discussion but I have to run- maybe more this evening- or post on the provari thread...

 

[5cardstud]

What part exactly is over the top? It doesn't require any thought to operate. You don't have to do any calculations. There is no need to plug it into your computer and program it. There is no repeated pressing of buttons to set it, nor do you have to sacrifice a chicken on a full moon to get it to work right. The ugly beta unit I have has worked better than any mod I've ever used... and I've used quite a few. I'll be buying two when it comes out.

I fail to see the big resistance to something that is new technology for mods. I wonder if the same people raised such a stink when the first variable voltage mod came out, or when the first basic mods came out.

I'm happy for you and hope you get yrs. of enjoyment from it.

 

[AngusATAT]

I'm happy for you and hope you get yrs. of enjoyment from it.

This reply from you tells me one thing...


... you're a bit wiser than I am. It's the kind of response I should have given a few times in this thread. That's what happens when I go out of "ECF Staff" mode and give my fingers too much leeway.

 

[uba egar320]

Yeah, but if you didn't let those fingers fly off and type some stuff it would be all built up. WE don't need you dragging a wall locker up to the top of any clock towers lol.

 

[AngusATAT]

Yeah, but if you didn't let those fingers fly off and type some stuff it would be all built up. WE don't need you dragging a wall locker up to the top of any clock towers lol.

I just need to go home and play with the pup. Didn't you notice how cute he is? How could anyone feel stress after looking at that face?

 

[Switched]

This reply from you tells me one thing...


... you're a bit wiser than I am. It's the kind of response I should have given a few times in this thread. That's what happens when I go out of "ECF Staff" mode and give my fingers too much leeway.

Nah! The developer should have been in here instead of letting you guys take all the flack and try to explain his baby.

 

[AngusATAT]

Nah! The developer should have been in here instead of letting you guys take all the flack and try to explain his baby.

He can't post in this forum.

He's trying to get his website finalized, and as soon as he does he'll be making a thread about it. It won't be too much longer.

 

[pasture]

how many digital readout variable volt devices are there??

some of these negative comments may be relevant 2 years from now but not today.

i look forward to seeing more reviews on Darwin.

 

[uba egar320]

I just need to go home and play with the pup. Didn't you notice how cute he is? How could anyone feel stress after looking at that face?

Yep. They're good looking doggies, that's for sure lol. My cousin's dog is named Tico. Perfect name for him. Does yours do his business on a little pc of paper as well? That's a pretty good trick. I wish 60 pound boxers came with that option lol. I mean, I guess they would go on it, but we are talking about some pretty large, pretty nasty stuff here.

 

[5cardstud]

Don't get me wrong, I think this is probably a wonderful device and I love advancement. I don't want anyone to think I was putting it down. My point was just I can obtain a great VV unit that works great for $50.00 or less. Will a device that costs me this much more give me this much more. I really like the device.
That's how I am with my dog. I try to yell at him when hes bad but as soon as I look at him I start laughing.

pasture, I have one but I really only use the amp readout for testing stuff.

 

[pasture]

Don't get me wrong, I think this is probably a wonderful device and I love advancement. I don't want anyone to think I was putting it down. My point was just I can obtain a great VV unit that works great for $50.00 or less. Will a device that costs me this much more give me this much more. I really like the device.
That's how I am with my dog. I try to yell at him when hes bad but as soon as I look at him I start laughing.

pasture, I have one but I really only use the amp readout for testing stuff.

i wasn't talking to you specifically. in general, the thread title/ topic getting lost by many comments was that seemed negative.

can you post links for these digital readout, variable volts that you speak of (under $50 would be nice!) im in the market for one with those features and only see the provari and Darwin.

The digital readout is not required but i think its a nice touch and i definately do not want to carry around a little screwdriver to adjust it. thanks.

 

[candre23]

The standard AW1500mAh Li-Ion has a 2C rating which means it should be able to handle 3A while remaining within spec, more than most users will ever need.

Using a 2.5ohm atty at 6V equates to 2.4A, which seems like it's within the battery spec.

But it isn't.

You never get something for nothing, and in the case of all PWM boost setups, you're getting higher voltage at the cost of higher current draw. The actual load on the battery for that setup @ 3.7V is 3.9 amps. As the battery drops in voltage - say to 3.2V - you're actually pulling 4.5 amps to maintain your 6V output into a 2.5ohm load. This is the main reason that I personally feel that PWM buck systems (like the darwin) are inherently superior to PWM boost systems for PVs.

This is off-topic for this thread, but suffice it to say, when provape recommends high-discharge batteries for their mod, they're not just making it up.

 

[AngusATAT]

This is the main reason that I personally feel that PWM buck systems (like the darwin) are inherently superior to PWM boost systems for PVs.

While I can't tell you what the Darwin uses... I can tell you that it isn't what you think.

Boy, I really can't wait to be able to tell you the specs. I think some folks are going to be pretty surprised.

 

[AngusATAT]

And yes... that was a "neener neener neener".

Just to be clear.

 

[5cardstud]

i wasn't talking to you specifically. in general, the thread title/ topic getting lost by many comments was that seemed negative.

can you post links for these digital readout, variable volts that you speak of (under $50 would be nice!) im in the market for one with those features and only see the provari and Darwin.

The digital readout is not required but i think its a nice touch and i definately do not want to carry around a little screwdriver to adjust it. thanks.

This is one I built and it's in the modders forum. I also have one in the same place that doesn't have readout. You can build one for the price of a box and batteries. Plus the electronics was only $25.00. It just keeps on ticking.

 

[jimho]

Someone pm'd me earlier questioning why I have it in for the Darwin. To be clear, I don't- I'm not looking to trash it at all. I am interested in the device- like many, I don't care for it's packaging, but conceptually i believe it is better than the current crop of non regulated devices as well as most of the linear regulated devices I've seen. I came here looking for information about it thinking I'd find some.

That said, some serious claims about this device being far superior to anything else being contemplated are being made here and elsewhere. I've been involved in at least three different discussions on other device threads where individuals have entered in suggesting that the device being discussed was inferior in some way because it didn't regulate power like the Darwin (sometimes they are at least courteous enough to not use the name). They are getting this information from two places- one is the old thread and the other is here. Most of them are misinformed.

IcaBoD put the concepts out there on the previous discussion: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ent-mod-coming-soon-darwin-5.html#post2202592

Specifically:

*consistency from the time you hit the button till you let off. No heat fluctuations or sag like in a variable voltage mod. - Sounded good on the surface- but
......good VV devices don't sag- maybe there are some not so good ones out there that do, but they shouldn't
......heat fluctuations? Well, we covered the electrical issues above no need to revisit - other fluctuations exist that are mechanically induced can not be controlled by current.

*Tons of vapor and TH. A variable voltage only regulates voltage, amps are left to fluctuate wildly causing good hits and bad ones and as the batteries weaken the vapor is reduced.- you can't change ohms law- I=V/R - if resistance fluctuates by .2-.4% (nichrome wire) then current follows the voltage fluctuating only by the fluctuation in resistance- acknowledged that its there but that's not wildly. Again properly regulated voltage does not fade when the batteries weaken, the regulator continues to supply voltage as set and current as needed till the batteries can no longer supply the necessary power. Then it should shut off.

*atomizer independent: Darwin detects the resistance of the atomizer and makes adjustments up to 1000 times per second, ensuring that it supplies the wattage you chose. That means no matter what atomizer you put on it, the hit will be the same. You can switch between 801, 901, 510, HV, LR, it will give you the same draw every single time. - We discussed this above- different atomizer designs behave differently - constant power does not take into account those differences. no need to revisit. The nextgen pwm devices all actively monitor the output...

Now we're reminded that neither IcaBod nor anyone else who has a beta unit ever said that PWM was involved here... but we're going to be surprised when we see the specs and hear all the new features.....

I have no doubt that keeping power constant over the course of a days use with the same atty and juice will provide a very consistent vaping experience - seems like the beta testers confirmed that. My argument and concern is only that the claims put put out by IcaBod (one of the 5 posts he's graced us with) are misleading if not incorrect and there is no quantitative data or design information telling us what makes it different let alone better. This thread so far fails to provide any quantitative or even analytical comparison against the other devices it claims to be better than- I think the only relevant comparison was to the Buzz which while it has its fans suffers as one of the linear regulated devices that could be improved- ...so to be fair, other than the initial posts from the reviewers its kind of been off topic all along.

I will not be surprised by the circuit because I have no idea what it is- never said I did- although i did venture a guess that PWM was involved - Fact is-- if he's doing what he says he's doing, either there's some gain based on the load, or there's some comparator (digital or analog) computing a change and either injecting current, adjusting voltage or changing the duty cycle of some PWM generator/processor. I'm certainly interested in understanding what it does and how.

All that said its an interesting concept but discussing its merits or flaws or how it does things compared to other designs (the "is it really different?" part)without more information is pretty much pointless.

 

[Rocketman]

Are you saying that out of 180 posts (179 if someone deletes this one) we haven't seen any data yet? Yet we keep coming back and posting more info about how it isn't working (uninfo?).

I still like my idea about the atty that automatically adjusts it resistance so you can use it with any mod, any voltage.
oh, and the mood button.