David: Did you make this claim?

[ab357]

Go ahead make jokes...but I must ask...What is a bbs ?

Haha, actually it's not a strange question. Once upon a time (the 90's) a man named Al Gore says he invented the internet. But he didn't start out doing a good job. This was also about the time that Bill Gates was saying 64k of ram was all the memory anyone would ever need on their computer.

When he invented the Internet, they came out with what was called modems, but they weren't anything like modems of today. I remember how excited we were when one came out with a speed of 400 kps, then 800, and we really went wild when they came out with one that was a blazing 2400 kps. It only took about 45 mins to download a really small picture.

So that people could communicate online, someone created BBSs (Bulletin Board Systems). You could actually go into chat rooms and have instant communication. G rated communication! As I recall, AOL led to their demise. The rest is history.

I'm almost sure she would have to charge triple the going rate.....I mean it takes her away from running the place where OUR juices are made.

AB---there really are a lot of self-help books available. That might be a better way to go. I mean you are having so much trouble with only one stalking ya---think of the hoards you will anger by takin up FSUSA's time? hint--hint

wv

Books! You apparently don't know there are homes just for the Drs. I drove into retirement. But you are right. And I get your threat. Besides even Pamela couldn't help me.

However maybe The Wise One, aka TexasT has some suggestions.

 

[TexasT]

I think in all fairness I tell you that I distrust everybody and everything under the sun, so its not as FS personal as it seems. Apparenty I dont get enough lovin in this cruel world.

Well heck lady, you're in the right place for lovin. This is one of the lovin-est bunches of people I've ever run into and its why I hang out here. I'm really quite serious. And there's enough even to share with you.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Haha, actually it's not a strange question. Once upon a time (the 90's) a man named Al Gore says he invented the internet.

I certainly hope no one believes that.







Books! You apparently don't know there are homes just for the Drs. I drove into retirement. But you are right. And I get your threat. Besides even Pamela couldn't help me.

Why, I wasn't making a threat AB, I was just trying to save you from yourself---you do realize you bring all this on yourself---dontcha? I'm pretty well stocked up in ejuices so while i am here vaping happily, some of those other junkies who are new and have only just begun to stock-up might not be so understanding. But hey, its your choice.....
The only one that can help you is you.

However maybe The Wise One, aka TexasT has some suggestions.

I am so happy for ya---hookin up with Mrs. T's momma. I mean you just admire TT so much...and now your entering his family. You must be so excited......

Gots to go to the po. I believe one of my packages has arrived....yay.

wv

 

[vaporgalinfla]

Tell Pam I'll be making an appointment soon!

Good idea ab. With all the orders you keep placing for more and more and more and more juice, you need some help for your compulsive shopping problem.

 

[LordDavon]

Go ahead make jokes...but I must ask...What is a bbs ?

Ouch. That makes me feel old!

 

[mauisun]

since Pamela's forte is "child" psychology she would fit in quite well helping alot of these folks lmao

 

[Automaton]

Zelphie,

Well, let's put it this way. And I'm putting it this way so that you can analyze it yourself logically.

If we were trying to hide something, why would we be testing the flavorings everyone knows we use, in addition to all other flavorings, which we have considered as a possible solution (until we found out it wasn't without further testing, as noted previously)?

The act of testing these things is in and of itself a admission that there may be a better possibility for vaping. David personally wouldn't bet on it, but he is a logically minded guy. Which is to say, he'll have his opinion and then figure out the truth if he has the means to do so.

I think part of the reason our subforum looks the way it does is that David makes an effort to still be a real person. He'll tell you exactly where his bet would fall. But that doesn't mean he won't try to find out what the reality is.

I think David's initial reaction wasn't so much not caring - it wasn't dissimilar to mine, actually. The first thing I ever said was "we need more research." But I wasn't exceptionally concerned that we were going to start having vapers getting sick in droves. The numbers are not especially scary to me. But that's based on my guesses based on some basic math I crunched. That's only goes so far as to vaguely outline my personal opinion - it certain isn't good enough for an industry to answer its own safety questions on. I never thought it was. I always thought we needed more research. It's just that the dramatic tone that some posters quickly adopted scared me away from trying to logically discuss what that would look like with those people. I can't have a productive conversation with someone who's acting like that.

I think there are a LOT of people who feel that way. And yes, there are also people who just don't care and don't want to know. Great. Then they don't have to read the study if they'd rather not. But I think most people, David included, do actually want to know the truth. Many of them are just more moderated and methodical about it, and there's been no place for them in the discussion.

Speaking of, yes the results and methodology will be published, and we will use an independent lab with no interest in the world of vaping, or us particularly. There is precious little research into vaping, most of what little there is in this country was conducted by the FDA, and as such it would be pretty difficult for us to find a bias lab to test our stuff anyway.

We're still in the early planning stages though, so more specifics will be announced as we go along. We've got a bunch of stuff on the board but I (not being down there yet) am not sure if decisions are final yet, so I will refrain from saying things which may be incorrect.

 

[iJax]

I've been doing QA for more then 20 years now. This is a huge undertaking. You can not go 1/2 way with this. If you stop before its conclusion, your research will damage you.

Is the end result going to be a list of ingredients? Are you also going to research safe levels of each as it pertains to inhalation? Are you going to research the molecular changes that take place on every ingredient heated into a vapor?

While this is noble, have you thought about the legal ramifications behind it?

 

[upStomp]

I'm making a lot of leaping assumptions here, but I think you'll get my point...



If 20% of the liquid is flavoring (that's the high end of flavor concentration in the industry)...

Then a 10ml bottle of liquid contains 2ml of flavoring.

If 10% of the flavoring is pure Diacetyl (seems awfully high to me, but I'm thinking worst case)...

Then a 10ml bottle contains .2ml of Diacetyl.

It is commonly known that vaping results in much less of the vaped substance being ingested due to the property of PG/VG holding on to water-soluble substances when compared to smoking. Let's assume that 20% of the substances in the liquid are ingested directly through the lungs (again, worst case)...

Then a 10ml bottle contains .04ml of lung-ingestable Diacytil. That's less than .006ml a day, assuming a weekly intake of 10ml of liquid.

Is that a lot? Is it very little? I have no idea. Neither does anyone else. I've yet to read a study that attempts to identify the level of toxicity of Diacetyl when inhaled. There have been very few, localized cases of it causing health problems. There are no statistics available that could possibly bring to light the rate at which vapers (or anyone else outside of popcorn factory workers) can expect to have health problems with regular exposure. The "popcorn lung" cases involved too small of a sample to accurately identify the risks of exposure to the vaping population - even when ignoring the other differences in the variables.

"How much Diacetyl was getting ingested at the popcorn factories on a daily basis?"

"How does that compare to the amount that gets ingested by a moderate vaper?"

"How long has the vaping of liquids with Diacetyl been going on?"

"What percentage of vapers vape liquids with Diacetyl?"

"Knowing the properties of PG/VG, can moderate/heavy vaping be considered "regular exposure" compared to factory workers being exposed constantly to Diacetyl fumes during an 8-hour shift?"

"Have there been any cases of vapers getting popcorn lung?"

"What is the percentage of vapers getting popcorn lung out of all those who vape Diacetyl? Compared to those who vape Diacetyl-free liquids? Compared to those who don't vape?"

These are some of the questions that need to be answered if we're concerned about Diacetyl, though I suspect that most of them won't be answerable any time soon.

My understanding of FSUSA's initiative is that it will attempt to identify the existence and the concentrations of Diacetyl and other substances in the liquids, or at least the flavorings. It's a good start, and can help provide a foundation for answering the other questions.

 

[Nixsdaddy]

Haha, actually it's not a strange question. Once upon a time (the 90's) a man named Al Gore says he invented the internet. But he didn't start out doing a good job. This was also about the time that Bill Gates was saying 64k of ram was all the memory anyone would ever need on their computer.

When he invented the Internet, they came out with what was called modems, but they weren't anything like modems of today. I remember how excited we were when one came out with a speed of 400 kps, then 800, and we really went wild when they came out with one that was a blazing 2400 kps. It only took about 45 mins to download a really small picture.

So that people could communicate online, someone created BBSs (Bulletin Board Systems). You could actually go into chat rooms and have instant communication. G rated communication! As I recall, AOL led to their demise. The rest is history.

Sorry to interrupt this nice thought about the BBS's, but as being a former SysOp of several BBS's I would like to add some information.

The earliest form of the BBS was after the creation of the modem for consumer use put out by Hayes in 1979 (300 baud modem). The BBS was created by hobbyists as a way to communicate through messages (like an early mail/forum server) and then in the early to mid 80's BBS programs also offered chat, online games, polls, etc. Most BBS's in the 80's were not multi-line or even multi-user. As computer parts came down in price, the multi-user BBS was more prominent in the late 80's. These allowed for more than just one person at a time communications.

Neither AOL nor the Internet killed the BBS, it just shaped the BBS into a different medium. Granted the internet dropped the numbers of active BBS's in the world from about 100,000 (late 80's - early 90's) to about < 1000 worldwide today. The medium changed from dial-up to a telnet based connection. To be quite honest, I stopped running my multi-line BBS three years ago.

 

[Automaton]

The application of vaping is also a bit different from fume inhalation, for the reasons you mention - the carrying agent, mainly, and also the degree of exposure.

There haven't been any known cases of popcorn lung caused from these low of concentrations, but, well, there's only so much that proves.

From a medical standpoint, it's impossible to do any real studies at this point. Even at much higher concentration, popcorn lung took years to develop, and in many cases over a decade. The use of flavorings that could contain diacetyl or one of its substitutes in the vaping industry has only been going on for a couple years. There aren't any known cases of any serious vaping-related illnesses, and many long-term vapers report increases in lung function, but "long-term" in the vaping world is 1-2 years. That's not a big enough time frame.

But, in a way, this is good. The fact that it hasn't been long enough for anyone to develop a diacetyl/substitute illness even if it is possible gives us a good window to look into it.

 

[rogerdugans]

I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to this topic until now- I knew there were some potential dangers to vaping and that the prevailing opinion is that there is far more danger to smoking.
And there has been a LOT of research into the dangers of smoking.

But after seeing that MistressNomad was joining FSUSA and why, I read up on the subject a bit.

I have been buying my juices from whichever hardware vendor I am getting something from.

From here on out, I buy juice from FSUSA.
I have not tried any of them yet.
I have little idea of which to try- and with my pv I need 10ml bottles to really try a flavor.
But I am about to do some research into popular choices and eventually place an order- sometime today.

Why?
Well, FSUSA may be annoying a lot of people with the direction they are going in but it is the FIRST time I have seen a realistic approach to the health issues and the reality that the US government WILL end up involved with this industry eventually.

This is the first time I have seen a company willing to put some of its profit into at least trying to determine how to produce liquid that is as safe and healthy as possible, rather than just having a knee-jerk reaction to whatever the current buzzwords are.

FSUSA- you just got yourselves a customer.

 

[tgcrna]

I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to this topic until now- I knew there were some potential dangers to vaping and that the prevailing opinion is that there is far more danger to smoking.
And there has been a LOT of research into the dangers of smoking.

But after seeing that MistressNomad was joining FSUSA and why, I read up on the subject a bit.

I have been buying my juices from whichever hardware vendor I am getting something from.

From here on out, I buy juice from FSUSA.
I have not tried any of them yet.
I have little idea of which to try- and with my pv I need 10ml bottles to really try a flavor.
But I am about to do some research into popular choices and eventually place an order- sometime today.

Why?
Well, FSUSA may be annoying a lot of people with the direction they are going in but it is the FIRST time I have seen a realistic approach to the health issues and the reality that the US government WILL end up involved with this industry eventually.

This is the first time I have seen a company willing to put some of its profit into at least trying to determine how to produce liquid that is as safe and healthy as possible, rather than just having a knee-jerk reaction to whatever the current buzzwords are.

FSUSA- you just got yourselves a customer.

Welcome to fsusa! I love their juices and the people on this forum are fun to hang out with.
If you like coffee flavors, fsusa's are great - CoffeeX, Cocoa Chaos, Cappuccino Smooth . . .
HopScotch is also a favorite of many on here. There are so many to choose from - have fun!

 

[vaporgalinfla]

I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to this topic until now- I knew there were some potential dangers to vaping and that the prevailing opinion is that there is far more danger to smoking.
And there has been a LOT of research into the dangers of smoking.

But after seeing that MistressNomad was joining FSUSA and why, I read up on the subject a bit.

I have been buying my juices from whichever hardware vendor I am getting something from.

From here on out, I buy juice from FSUSA.
I have not tried any of them yet.
I have little idea of which to try- and with my pv I need 10ml bottles to really try a flavor.
But I am about to do some research into popular choices and eventually place an order- sometime today.

Why?
Well, FSUSA may be annoying a lot of people with the direction they are going in but it is the FIRST time I have seen a realistic approach to the health issues and the reality that the US government WILL end up involved with this industry eventually.

This is the first time I have seen a company willing to put some of its profit into at least trying to determine how to produce liquid that is as safe and healthy as possible, rather than just having a knee-jerk reaction to whatever the current buzzwords are.

FSUSA- you just got yourselves a customer.

Welcome to our 'junkies' group! You're going to love FSUSA liquids!

 

[Numanoid]

I look at it this way... I could be putting 4000 chemicals into my system, such as arsenic (i.e. rat poison), carbon monoxide, tar, etc... Even if there are chemicals that aren't healthy for us with these juices, I fail to see how they could be even remotely as harmful as analogs in any way. Sure, there's no concrete proof, but I know this... I am breathing easier and I smoke at most one analog a day right now. Would I be better off without vaping these flavors as well? Perhaps; most likely. Would I be better off had I not discovered this wonderful world of ECF and vaping? I think not.

Give me the miniature fog machine or give me death! Actually, that might ring very true for some of us.

I agree with you completely regarding the ecig vs the analog. Most do. My only issue with MN's response is that it is flying in the face of the logic that most of us here agree with.

We have a known chemical that has caused a serious lung condition in certain amounts. The alternative is unknown at this time and may be just as bad.

The same applies to analogs vs ecigs. How many people here think it's better to take the route of "unknown but maybe as bad" ecigs compared to a known killer with analogs?

That said, I wish FSUSA the best with this. If done correctly it will be good for the whole vaping community.

 

[757girl]

Heck for me, even if liquids in general come back with say 20 things in them..thats still thousands less than analogs. And maybe I am slow or crazy but analogs have diacetyl in them also right?? So what is more harmful...rat poisoning, tar, and whatever else is in analogs or diacetyl? I KNOW for a fact that vaping is healthier for me because my body tells me so. All in all even if the testing shows good or bad it WILL NOT change my view of vaping or FSUSA or any company in the vaping community (except that nasty dekang juice) lol Because when I was smoking analogs I read everything bad in them but I still didn't put them down and those things were killing me. NOTHING is 100% safe but it darn sure is better than what I was doing before.

 

[mauisun]

good point. I never understood the whole hysteria group who screams and cries about whatever they can. I mean really folks. You get more radon gas ppm in your own home on a daily basis then particulates of other ingredients from vaping. That is pure science folks and not something that can be scoffed at

 

[rogerdugans]

We have a known chemical that has caused a serious lung condition in certain amounts. The alternative is unknown at this time and may be just as bad.

I pulled out one section of a post above to explain a point:
Instead of "may[/] be just as bad" I think it should say "may[/] be just as bad or even worse."

We do know that one chemical and its substitutes have issues- as far as I can determine, there is no certain set amount that can be stated that we receive from juice or whether what we inhale is far below the point of being an issue- or, admittedly, if it is far above. I have seen nothing, NOTHING which makes a definitive statement regarding this.
And I have seen nothing stating that the alternatives are any better at all- in fact, all I have seen is reports that the alternatives are every bit as bad.

And with the amount of research that has been done so far- there may well be something far more urgent that we do not yet know about.

And that is why I am not overly concerned about any one thing currently in my eliquids from a reputable manufacturer.
If I was, I wouldn't vape.

 

[mauisun]

ahhh yes finally a voice of reason. And what I have been trying to point out for a long time. no one has done anything other then scream about levels, but we are talking about levels so low that even our government, as scary as that is, says it is so low to be below a level that can be scientifically decided as bad.
I am a person of science. Give me pure hard written fact that a certain level is deadly and I will perk up. Give me papers that a rat somewhere was given huge doses and it looks like the rat has issues, we all know about those experiments...

 

[shanagan]

ahhh yes finally a voice of reason. And what I have been trying to point out for a long time. no one has done anything other then scream about levels, but we are talking about levels so low that even our government, as scary as that is, says it is so low to be below a level that can be scientifically decided as bad.
I am a person of science. Give me pure hard written fact that a certain level is deadly and I will perk up. Give me papers that a rat somewhere was given huge doses and it looks like the rat has issues, we all know about those experiments...

I'm sorry, what? There is no known PEL for diacetyl, David. None. That means "our government" says there is no known safe exposure limit.

It's a good thing Max from FlavourArt decided to start removing it from the flavors you use, at any rate.