Doctor attempts to implicate e-cigarettes in UK death

[Wench]

My thoughts on this...
Too many details have been left out to really know what went on and it smells of sensationalistic reporting and the Dr. trying to garner attention.

What eliquid did he use? 1 kind only? Several? How much ? VG or PG or a mix?
They showed Ecopure but it kind of hit me as just some stock footage they had and used it ( Ecopure is made over there so it might have been readily available to use)

It was mentioned he had been treated for lung problems... how long prior to this? What specific problems?

Big black hole on info and facts that are missing from the Dr. and that BBC report.

 

[pigelty]

I use njoy NPRO. There is no ingriedients containing any oilsin their product.

But I heard that some ppl that buy ejuice from certain uncommon distributors may contain oil.

My advice to most ppl is choose an ecig, juice or cartiridges from a reputable manufactorer such as SE, NJOY, GreenSmoke, etc. They have a tendancy to be more saftey minded IMO.

 

[IanK1968]

I was reading this and it kind of scared me. Does the oils burn away before hitting the lungs? can e-juice cause Exogenous lipoid pneumonia? I would like to know more from research.

Lipoid Pneumonia : Lipoid Pneumonia Causes

 

[pigelty]

My thoughts on this...
Too many details have been left out to really know what went on and it smells of sensationalistic reporting and the Dr. trying to garner attention.

What eliquid did he use? 1 kind only? Several? How much ? VG or PG or a mix?
They showed Ecopure but it kind of hit me as just some stock footage they had and used it ( Ecopure is made over there so it might have been readily available to use)

It was mentioned he had been treated for lung problems... how long prior to this? What specific problems?

Big black hole on info and facts that are missing from the Dr. and that BBC report.

AGREED with Wench.
This man was a smoker for several years. It's HIGHLY likely his longterm use of inhaling tobacco smoke (which also contain oils amongst many other poisionous chemicals) have contributed. Also, perhaps he vaped in excess and used juice from vendor that was not legit.

More studies need to be done. Unfortunetly, the truth is no one knows what longterm effects of vapor sticks are---and there's what type of vapor stick from what vendor,etc,etc, until we are all old. What is would be more telling is studying several hundred individuals who only vaped throughout their life. Let's say these people begin vaping ONLY in early adulthood and studies can only be concluded after they are seniors (or earlier depending). We probably wont completley know until for another 30 years or so...

 

[IanK1968]

AGREED with Wench.
This man was a smoker for several years. It's HIGHLY likely his longterm use of inhaling tobacco smoke (which also contain oils amongst many other poisionous chemicals) have contributed. Also, perhaps he vaped in excess and used juice from vendor that was not legit.

More studies need to be done. Unfortunetly, the truth is no one knows what longterm effects of vapor sticks are---and there's what type of vapor stick from what vendor,etc,etc, until we are all old. What is would be more telling is studying several hundred individuals who only vaped throughout their life. Let's say these people begin vaping ONLY in early adulthood and studies can only be concluded after they are seniors (or earlier depending). We probably wont completley know until for another 30 years or so...

I was just researching at there are atleast 70 different kinds of oils used in various cigarettes. I was floored when I saw this. The doctor has the nerve to say it was e-juice? OMG

 

[IanK1968]

Here is a very short list of oils found in cigarettes, and then tell me where that "oil" came from Dr hate

Butter Oil
Cananga Oil
Caraway Oil
Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder
Carrot Oil
Cascarilla Oil
Cassia Bark Oil
Cassie Absolute and Oil
Cedar Leaf Oil
Cedarwood Oil
Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin
Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract
Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract
Citronella Oil
Clary Oil
Coconut Oil
Copaiba Oil

Thats just 40% of the oil found in tobacco cigarettes as you can see im only on the letter C so before you go spouting your mouth off doctor scare monger do you research.

 

[skye]

Here is a very short list of oils found in cigarettes, and then tell me where that "oil" came from Dr hate

Butter Oil
Cananga Oil
Caraway Oil
Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder
Carrot Oil
Cascarilla Oil
Cassia Bark Oil
Cassie Absolute and Oil
Cedar Leaf Oil
Cedarwood Oil
Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin
Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract
Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract
Citronella Oil
Clary Oil
Coconut Oil
Copaiba Oil

Thats just 40% of the oil found in tobacco cigarettes as you can see im only on the letter C so before you go spouting your mouth off doctor scare monger do you research.

Touche'!!!!!!

 

[rothenbj]

Besides, we've been told that cigarettes contain road tar and that's a petroleum product so it must have been the cigarettes. I'm going to stick with my Quaker State 40-10 formula. Keeps my cars running smooth.

Let's look at this with a bit of practicality. Millions have been vaping worldwide for years. This poor fellow vaped a matter of months and was already exhibiting health issues prior to quitting smoking. You'd think there would be more than one case exposed by this time, plus certainly more than one case advertised by an avid tobacco prohibitionist. I'm not buying any of it without a lot more details. Maybe they'll send the results to a California researcher to build a study from a conclusion.

 

[IanK1968]

There wont be any conclusion, the guys is buried and im sure the doctor will refuse to any further testing. If someone has a vendetta against us, he will make it impossible to us prove otherwise. forget this quack, move your campaign against the BBC for actually reporting this garbage without investigating and hearing the other side first. Making a big stink against the BBC might force them to do a further investigation and report on e-cigs.

 

[rolygate]

[rothenbj] Maybe they'll send the results to a California researcher to build a study from a conclusion.

Excellent!

 

[hifistud]

There wont be any conclusion, the guys is buried and im sure the doctor will refuse to any further testing.

He's even not taking phone calls - and Lord knows I've tried enough times. Same with the Look North editor - not taking any calls on the subject - at least, he's not taking mine. However, I'm in at the Beeb next week to do a show, so I'll tap him on the shoulder then and see what he has to say.

If someone has a vendetta against us, he will make it impossible to us prove otherwise. forget this quack, move your campaign against the BBC for actually reporting this garbage without investigating and hearing the other side first. Making a big stink against the BBC might force them to do a further investigation and report on e-cigs.

This was a non-story from the start, and the first thing I want to find out is who fed them it - I have my suspicions - in order to piece together the chain. If it's come in from the widow, it's one thing, but I suspect it's been fed in by Allcock for his own purposes.

That said, it was also a poor piece of journalism - had they so wished, it could have been held for the next day and the due diligence research gone through. As it happens, I think they were forewarned of the Coroner's verdict and wanted to scoop the local press with it - certainly, what I know of the timeline suggests that was partly the case. That being the case, they took the word of Allcock at face value and, as they have to, sought a counter-view from Ecita. The whole story looks to have been thrown together over a period of four hours - too short for a properly researched one (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone else, given that we covered it on VTTV in under an hour from my finding out about it).

 

[Placebo Effect]

hifistud, you've been trying Dr. Allcock at his 0191 445 2434 office number?

 

[IanK1968]

PLease let us know what this quack has to say if he will talk to you.

 

[Al Capwn]

Let's not foget e-smokers that GENIUNE research into our new habbit should be welcomed by us and that we shouldn't just say it's safe because we want it to be.

I am and will always be open to genune, unbiased research into e-cigs, this 'report' and Dr Allcock's (appropriate name btw) views however do not help. Most people don't have time to think every subject through and it is very easy to psychologically link cigarettes (which we now all think "evil" immediataly) with e-cigs under the 'is it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck' mentality.

The reporter should have researched e-liquids for their 'oil' content and looked into the possibility of his decades of tobacco smoking being the cause. These questions should then have been pressed to Dr Allcock.

 

[leaford]

This is another example of the willingness of the antis to distort, exaggerate and lie in furtherance of their cause, and the media's willingness to enable them. I used to work at a newspaper, and I had a conversation once with a reporter about the credulity with which advocates of causes the paper supported -- anti-racism, environmentalism, anti-smoking -- were treated. Don't you think someone devoted to a righteous cause might need to be subjected to the same skepticism as a politician or a corporate spokesman? Is it possible that a crusader might think the ends justify the means, and a few white lies are necessary? Do you ever consider what it is that advocates, by definition, do? She just looked at me.

Agreed. I certainly think the anti-e-cig lobby qualifies as a denialist movement, just as much as holocaust denialism or aids denialism, if not quite so vile.

"It has been proposed that the various forms of denialism have the common feature of the rejection of overwhelming evidence and the generation of a controversy through attempts to deny that a consensus exists" Wikipedia

It's also been summed up as the art of creating the illusion of a debate where there is none.

Opposition to e-cigs seems to qualify to me. We need a LOT more testing and proof of safety no doubt, but the evidence we do have of vaping's safety, compared to the LACK of evidence of any harm, is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence.

 

[CatVTTV]

Yes placebo, that is the number called. Both Hifi and myself tried. I did manage to talk to a young lady in that department, who told me that neither Mr Allcock, nor his secretary were available, but she would pass on the details of our request for an interview, and felt sure Mr Allcock would be happy to talk to us direct.

We shall keep on trying..

 

[hifistud]

The Chronicle has taken it up, too - this may yet spread:

Wardley man's death linked to using e-cigarettes - Today's News - News - JournalLive

 

[Vocalek]

Left this comment on the Chronicle story:

The official cause of death reported by the coroner was interstitial lung disease. As a pulmonologist, Dr. Allcock, should know that most cases are caused by smoking. Dr. Allcock should also know that endogenous lipoid pneumonia, also called cholesterol pneumonitis, is generally observed in persons with chronic bronchial obstruction, as often occurs in smokers.

So why did Dr. Allcock mislead the poor widow? Why did he fail to mention that the most likely cause of Mr. Miller’s demise was accumulated lung damage from his decades of smoking?

There no oils in electronic cigarette liquid, because the atomizers do not work with oils.

Read More Wardley man's death linked to using e-cigarettes - Today's News - News - JournalLive

 

[Vocalek]

Yes placebo, that is the number called. Both Hifi and myself tried. I did manage to talk to a young lady in that department, who told me that neither Mr Allcock, nor his secretary were available, but she would pass on the details of our request for an interview, and felt sure Mr Allcock would be happy to talk to us direct.

We shall keep on trying..

The doctor is claiming that the oil slick is "exogenous" (caused externally--by inhaling something oily). However, the "endogenous" type of lipoid pneumonia can be confirmed during autopsy.

If either of you manage to talk to Dr. Allcock himself, ask him about this article: http://medind.nic.in/iae/t06/i2/iaet06i2p143.pdf

Endogenous lipoid pneumonia, also known as cholesterol or golden pneumonia occurs when the normal lipids of the lung like cholesterol and its esters escape from destroyed alveolar cell walls distal to an obstructing lesion or from lung disease damaged by suppurative process and lead to chronic inflammatory reaction as in exogenous. However unlike in exogenous lipoid pneumonia, lipid is found in cytoplasm of macrophages aggregated in airspaces in the form of droplets in cytoplasm less than 1 micron in size.¹⁰

The footnote leads to this reference.
^10. Kuhn C, Askin BF. Lungs and mediastinum. In : Kissane JM, Editor. Anderson’s Pathology. 9th ed. St. Louis: CV Mosby Company; 1990. pp 984-5.

So the question to put to the doctor would be:

Did the coroner rule out endogenous lipoid pneumonia by looking at the size of the lipid droplets found in the cytoplasm of macrophages in the airspaces?

If not, can the Doctor be absolutely sure that Mr. Miller's decades of smoking did not cause the damage seen on Mr. Miller's lung?​

Did the doctor collect a sample of the liquid from the e-cigarette being used by Mr. Miller and send it to a lab for analysis?

If so, was any type of oil found?​

If yes, was this oil then compared to a sample from the commercial brand of e-cigarette liquid being used by Mr. Miller to rule out the possibility that Mr. Miller himself added the oil?​

If not, why wasn’t the commercial brand tested for the presence of oil?​

If not, why wasn’t a sample sent for analysis to confirm or refute the presence of oil in Mr. Miller's e-cigarette liquid?​

 

[rolygate]

As more on this emerges, it appears that the doctor's role in this is central to the end result: a news broadcast that was nothing more than unfounded scaremongering, and causing additional distress to the family of a person who died from the effects of long-term smoking. Apparently he seems to have called for an inquest (which is a rare event) and then has obstructed the truthful findings of the inquest by not assisting the carrying out of any of the basic investigations that would be needed to arrive at any form of meaningful result (as detailed by V. above).

When it seems that we have enough of the details organised correctly, I will lodge a complaint with the General Medical Council, the doctors' oversight body.
GMC | Home
GMC | A patient's guide to making a complaint about a doctor

This would appear to come under their Fraud or Dishonesty classification of complaints.