No, I'm suggesting he should do exactly what Mike did to measure the amount of vacuum he's producing in his atty, but that he doesn't need a fancy electronic gizmo that's calibrated to NIST standards; a simple water-tube manometer will do.
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Because I've used the same atomizer in TC mode with a 25mm ID coil, and seen the results with restriction, as well as the lack there of without.
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The trick is to tee it into you mouthpiece. That way you are seeing exactly the same pressure that the atty chamber is seeing. The airflow setting, even at low settings, makes it difficult to achieve much of a vacuum. Naturally, various atty chambers will differ slightly, but not enough to make a noticeable difference, IN AN ECIG APPLICATION.
The whole "carb cap" methodology is for a totally different process (and hardware type) than what we are addressing on this forum, and (presumably) different from what the OP was asking about. How many of us run a 25mm ID coil? It may well change system pressure in those elaborate glass rigs, but I doubt it would do anything for the standard ejuice mod.
In a typical ecig:
- Increased airflow will cool the vape.
- Lower boiling point ejuice will allow lower temperatures to achieve a similar amount of vapor.
- The amount of vacuum we see in typical ecig use has minimal effect on the vaporization point of the juice.
Depending on the flavor being vaporized, and the amount of negative preasure, yes. That is exactly what I am saying.Are you say'n that there is a Boiling Point Drop of 50 ~ 200 Degrees Fahrenheit due to a Drop in Atmospheric Pressure inside your Atomizer?
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The pressures developed in that rig are LESS than those in a MTL. Application. THAT is the point I am trying to make. You can believe what ever you want. To the original posters point though, I doubt low wattage alone can prevent a dry hit, so no... TC is better.
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Okay, out of all the things discussed here, this is what I understand the least. How does it not produce any vapor?
Using eScribe, I found that my style of vaping didn't approach the 440F level, so I quit using TC. But IMO, one of the biggest variables is being ignored in this thread - duration of the hit. Keep adding time to the say, 10W hit, and temp keeps rising.
Maybe I'm missing something (hey, I'm no scientist), but it seems the theory could be tested easily enough - take a hit of a specified duration on an atty wide open on DNA, then shut it almost down and do the same. Of course you'd still have the question of how much more or less you'd want to hit it in real life open or closed. But at least you'd see real results from a real atty, at real temps, instead of discussing theory. You could go to the lengths of the @mikepetro test, but this would be a start.
And BTW, that discredited 2015 study has been revisited, but it's every bit as bad as the last one. They used ancient 10 yr. old CE4 clearos, and hit them 50 times in succession with only 30 second intervals. And still didn't even mention temps. It was discussed in this thread.[URL="https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/anyone-really-suprised-that-vaping-is-getting-heavily-regulated-in-many-places.912685/page-3#post-21886381"]Anyone really suprised that vaping is getting heavily regulated in many places?[/URL]
Using eScribe, I found that my style of vaping didn't approach the 440F level, so I quit using TC. But IMO, one of the biggest variables is being ignored in this thread - duration of the hit. Keep adding time to the say, 10W hit, and temp keeps rising.
Maybe I'm missing something (hey, I'm no scientist), but it seems the theory could be tested easily enough - take a hit of a specified duration on an atty wide open on DNA, then shut it almost down and do the same. Of course you'd still have the question of how much more or less you'd want to hit it in real life open or closed. But at least you'd see real results from a real atty, at real temps, instead of discussing theory. You could go to the lengths of the @mikepetro test, but this would be a start.
And BTW, that discredited 2015 study has been revisited, but it's every bit as bad as the last one. They used ancient 10 yr. old CE4 clearos, and hit them 50 times in succession with only 30 second intervals. And still didn't even mention temps. It was discussed in this thread.[URL="https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/anyone-really-suprised-that-vaping-is-getting-heavily-regulated-in-many-places.912685/page-3#post-21886381"]Anyone really suprised that vaping is getting heavily regulated in many places?[/URL]
It just Doesn't seem possible that a Human could achieve that type of Negative Pressure that would cause such a drop in Temperature.
Even an Olympic Athlete vaping on the Summit of K2.
Realistically, it it was shown that there was 5F drop due to "negative pressure" inside an Atomizer, I would be Surprised.
Very Surprised.
On a surface area of one square inch, no. That preasure would be difficult without collapsing. But on a PInhole air intake, totally achievable.
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Because at 0.07psi, I'm not getting any flow. I have to nearly collapse my mouth to be able to draw any air through it.
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Help me out here... Isn't "Pressure" a Uniform Force?
So if I can somehow achieve a Pressure (or the context of this thread - a "Negative Pressure" because the Pressure is Less than Atmospheric Pressure at the given Altitude/Temperature) isn't that Pressure Equally distributed to ALL Points inside your Atomizer?
And if the "Negative Pressure" only occurs at the Inlet Holes, that why would such Negative Pressure have any affect on e-Liquid in a piece of Cotton laying at the Center of an Atomizer?
The amount of preasure over an area is how preasure is measured. The surface area of the intake is the limiting restriction, so that is where the preasure inside the chamber would be generated. As the chamber is sealed off everywhere else.
The atty isn't flexible, say, like a mouth or balloon, so the preasure at the intake isn't decreased through the chamber.
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You may well be correct for those exotic tar like substances and nail dabbing techniques.
I only tested PG/VG/Nic in a wicking atomizer.
I recommend not confusing the ecig layperson, that might be reading this, with discussion that isnt relevant to ecigs.
That would Kinda explain the "SI" in PSI.
All I'm say'n is that the Pressure (or "Negative Pressure") inside your Atomizer is the Same where ever you Measure it.
And I Don't believe that a Human can achieve a large Enough Drop in Pressure to cause anywhere near a 50 ~ 200F drop in the Boiling Point of an e-Liquid.
But there is a Simple way for You to Test this.
And that is just take an Empty Glass Coke Bottle and fill it about half-way with Hot Tap Water. Then do a Huge Exhale and Suck as Hard as you can on it. I mean, Really go for Broke.
If you can see Tiny Bubbles coming out of the Water, then you are Correct.
If you Can't see any Bubbles, well... , lets just cross that Bridge if we get to it.
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I'm talking relative boiling point, so expecting the same drop in boiling point at room temp is absurd. I also didn't realize exotic tar like substances were being discussed. I'm talking about substances that are routinely sold retail in ce4 format. I'd think the physics translates nicely.
I have No Clue what "exotic tar like substances" you are talking about? Did you quote the Wrong Post?
Anyway, if you think you are getting these Humongous Drops in the Boiling Point of e-Liquids because you are creating some Massive Negative Pressure inside atomizer, go for it.
Who knows? Maybe you have stumbled onto some New Branch of Physics?
I was curious, because you occasionally hear that MTL causes higher temps. Here's what a DNA monitor showed. Wide open, closed to smallest hole, then closed to barely open.
I set to 10W, and did my best to get as close to 5 sec. as possible, and came in around 4.5 sec. each. Waited 10 min. between each hit to allow the atty to cool to room temp. Started with wide open.
Odd, but power consumption increased the tighter it got. But it was also cooler the tighter I set the draw. Not pure science, I know. And leaves undefined variables. I know, the True isn't a DTL atty. But brand and style shouldn't matter - increasing airflow, if it's going to reduce temps, should do it in all atties.
But this simple little test showed me that by only significantly increasing airflow, which should've cooled the temp, it actually was hotter.
No offense to anyone - but for myself, I don't believe MTL vaping causes higher temps, regardless of plausible theories. Not that I really care, I'm not changing my style. This discussion just made me curious enough to open eScribe for the first time in ages, though.
I set to 10W, and did my best to get as close to 5 sec. as possible, and came in around 4.5 sec. each. Waited 10 min. between each hit to allow the atty to cool to room temp. Started with wide open.
Odd, but power consumption increased the tighter it got. But it was also cooler the tighter I set the draw. Not pure science, I know. And leaves undefined variables. I know, the True isn't a DTL atty. But brand and style shouldn't matter - increasing airflow, if it's going to reduce temps, should do it in all atties.
But this simple little test showed me that by only significantly increasing airflow, which should've cooled the temp, it actually was hotter.
No offense to anyone - but for myself, I don't believe MTL vaping causes higher temps, regardless of plausible theories. Not that I really care, I'm not changing my style. This discussion just made me curious enough to open eScribe for the first time in ages, though.
The measurements Mike did were on a Nautilus coil in power mode.
As to what you saw in eScribe, are you describing the behavior of the delivered wattage and measured temp curve with a SS coil in the True?
I just took my current True MTL tank and put it on the SBody Macro. Set at 10.5W power mode - 316L SS 28ga, 2.5mm ID, 0.52ohm per SBody. Then plugged it in and ran some hits on Device Monitor, and snipped the results from the statistics panel for Last Puff.
I know almost nothing about eScribe, and am not any kind of TC wonk. I never messed with it much after seeing my temps, and finding I liked the hit on my Nugget more, so I don't really know much more about it. Well, except how to create & upload cool logos for a mod I rarely use.
Not sure why it shows error on temp peak, but I'm assuming it's showing mean temp through the puff. I wouldn't know how to record the temp curves, to be honest. I just remembered that it recorded my temps, and wanted to do a quick & dirty comparison.
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Not big on experience, however if temp and saftey is a concern then you should maybe consider using a DNA or similar mod. I have noticed that occasionally I get dry hits with my VV, Topside, Smok...never with my LS Paranormal in TC or Replay modes. The DNA will just refuse to fire when the wick is dry.
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