Does vaping at a low wattage offer the same benefit as temp control?

[ShamrockPat]

I truly think I need TC in the car only which is when I use it. I never hit temp protest at home without trying. I see no point wasting my batteries on monitoring my coil.

Just a quick comment. Here's a snippet of information from a Dicodes document regarding TC.
"Battery life
Once the coil is hot, the energy needed to keep it hot is much smaller than the energy needed to heat it up. Depending on the individual coil built, the user can expect a 1.5 times longer battery life."

 

[DaveP]

You are correct in that, all else being equal, a MTL hit is hotter than a DL hit. I verified this with NIST traceable instrumentation. However it not because of pressure, its because of the cooling effect of increased airflow in DL hit.

Do try to actually measure a vacuum some time. A .5 PSI vacuum would totally collapse an empty soda can. Most vacuum applications are measured in inches of h2O as even 1" of vacuum is a lot of force. A vacuum of 7" of h2O is enough to lift 5+ pounds. I know this because that is what we calibrate our "Lift Assist" devices to at work. There are used to lift parts with a 1 inch diameter suction cup. I doubt you can even lift 1 lb with the suction created by the average mouth.

I agree about airflow and temps. I've vaped MTL, mostly on Kayfun Lites since shortly after I put my eGo and Joye 510 in a storage box many years ago. juice viscosity plays a big part in determining air flow requirements. Since moving back down from 70pg juices to 50pg/50vg I've had to close down the air flow ports a bit to prevent dry hits on my KF Lites. When I vaped 70pg juice I could keep them wide open and feed juice just fine. Now, I have to close the AF port screws about 2, sometimes almost 3 turns to prevent dry hits.

The ports are totally clear of debris. I chase them once in a while with a small drill bit and wash them out under the sink tap while recoiling.

 

[Rossum]

For me, at least, my cheeks are stuck against my teeth. As I figure it, that's at least half a pound of negative preasure on more than one square inch.

I do not think your cheeks are particularly well calibrated. Do us a favor and get or make a vacuum gauge. A simple vacuum gauge can be made from nothing more than a bucket of water, a yard stick, and some clear tubing. One psi equals 27.7" of water.

Then, once you actually know how much vacuum you're pulling, you can look at some vapor pressure charts for PG and VG and estimate how much of a change in boiling point that vacuum produces.

 

[mcclintock]

As atomization of e-juice is primarily the result of boiling atmospheric water that becomes attached to the liquid, changes in the boiling point of VG are irrelevant, and increased airflow increases vaporization.

All vape devices will work poorly if the power is incorrect for the setup. Lower power devices do have an advantage of responding quicker as the coils are low mass, so they do work better without needing to be pushed hard to get reasonable ramp-up. However this doesn't make your lungs smaller so there will be a tendency to strain any insufficient, unsatisfying device and so they will be pushed hard anyway. Low power also means a higher % of bad stuff will be unnoticable and can be higher and still produce less bad stuff in total.

TC is a tool to monitor the situation and as an additional level of protection, but is neither necessary or sufficient in itself. Really great for drippers though!

 

[mikepetro]

only one of many variables. did you read the blog by mike petro?

See VV & VW Mod Temperature Variables | E-Cigarette Forum for a more detailed explanation.

 

[mikepetro]

In the 2015 NEJM study that you are indirectly alluding to, they took a vape, ran it well beyond the recommended voltage, and detected great amounts of formaldehyde in the output: as much as an entire pack of cigarettes! What they didn't mention is had anyone actually tasted the output it would have been the mother of dry hits—completely unbearable because the cotton was scorching. At the recommended voltage the output was clean.

You own a highly sensitive instrument that can protect you from things that can harm you: it's called your tongue. Trust it.

Also bear in mind the ancient maxim of toxicology:
All things are poison, and nothing is without poison, the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison. —Paracelsus

I agree, that 2015 NEJM study was flawed on several levels. It was a garbage study.

However I disagree that you taste it before the nasties start increasing rapidly.

See Formaldehyde Levels in a real atty under real conditions. | E-Cigarette Forum for actual test conditions.

My testing was done under actual and realistic vaping conditions, and I personally vaped it under those conditions. I didnt taste anything burnt until about 505F, however above 450F the adlehyde levels start climbing fast, and at 500F they are in the lower range of actual cigarette smoke.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I do not think your cheeks are particularly well calibrated. Do us a favor and get or make a vacuum gauge. A simple vacuum gauge can be made from nothing more than a bucket of water, a yard stick, and some clear tubing. One psi equals 27.7" of water.

Then, once you actually know how much vacuum you're pulling, you can look at some vapor pressure charts for PG and VG and estimate how much of a change in boiling point that vacuum produces.

That much negative pressure in the chest cavity generated by the intercostals and the diaphragm might have an interesting effect upon the bronchioles and alveoli. I await the science.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I do not think your cheeks are particularly well calibrated. Do us a favor and get or make a vacuum gauge. A simple vacuum gauge can be made from nothing more than a bucket of water, a yard stick, and some clear tubing. One psi equals 27.7" of water.

Then, once you actually know how much vacuum you're pulling, you can look at some vapor pressure charts for PG and VG and estimate how much of a change in boiling point that vacuum produces.

Valid test but only demonstrates the PSI one is able to achieve with that method. What would be the PSI through an atomizer of unknown pressure? I think @mikepetro test by using his Acme Suckometer (Digital Manometer) is valid.

@HigherStateD – a clear quartz atomizer that changes colour with temperature sounds pretty impressive. Assuming said clear quartz atomizer is being used to vape e-liquid and not some other form of vaping which does include other variables, can you say with 100% certainty that this novelty device is enough to draw a conclusion that you are in fact lowering the boiling point of your e-juice? If so, then we should have figures even if they are guestimates. I’d like to see this clear quartz atty – link or picture?

 

[zoiDman]

...

Also, chemical reactions, as well as vaporization temps decrease relative to pressure, so as you create a vacuum in the atty, the needed temps for achieving the same effects drop.

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Here is something I posted in Mike's Big Thread when concept of Negative Pressure/Boiling Points was 1st Kicked around.

Say I have a Household Vacuum Cleaner that can create about -20kPa of pressure.

Vacuum cleaner - Wikipedia

Now say I hooked up my Atomizer to my Vacuum Cleaner. I wonder how much the Drop in Pressure would effect the Boiling point of say Water if I went from around 100kPa normal atmospheric pressure to around 80kPa?

By this chart, that would be about 12F Degrees.

12F isn't all that much. But it was a Drop in the Boiling Point.

Now, how Realistic is the Vacuum Cleaner's suction to the suction I create when I draw on My Atomizer?

Post #2906 in New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

BTW - Here is a Easier to Read chart regarding kPa and Boiling Points.

Determine Boiling Point from Vapor Pressure

So if people want to Kick Around the idea of Lowered Boiling Points due to Drop in Atmospheric Pressure, perhaps a good thing to Quantify from the Start would be How Much Vacuum does a Vaper create when they take a Hit on their Atomizer?

As much as a Household Vacuum Cleaner?

Perhaps a Tad Less?

LOL

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Lower power devices do have an advantage of responding quicker as the coils are low mass, so they do work better without needing to be pushed hard to get reasonable ramp-up.

I understand the point your are trying to get across but feel the advantages, as stated, are debatable. Being pushed hard is difficult to define unless the same device is being used. There are way too many variables involved.

 

[HigherStateD]

Valid test but only demonstrates the PSI one is able to achieve with that method. What would be the PSI through an atomizer of unknown pressure? I think @mikepetro test by using his Acme Suckometer (Digital Manometer) is valid.

@HigherStateD – a clear quartz atomizer that changes colour with temperature sounds pretty impressive. Assuming said clear quartz atomizer is being used to vape e-liquid and not some other form of vaping which does include other variables, can you say with 100% certainty that this novelty device is enough to draw a conclusion that you are in fact lowering the boiling point of your e-juice? If so, then we should have figures even if they are guestimates. I’d like to see this clear quartz atty – link or picture?

I'd like YOU to provide a link to a source showing how e-liquid violates the laws of physics, relative to EVERY other substance.

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[Punk In Drublic]

I'd like YOU to provide a link to a source showing how e-liquid violates the laws of physics, relative to EVERY other substance.

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I am not debating that e-liquid violates the laws of physics. I am inquiring if the pressure change in your atomizer is enough to make a significant difference. And by significant I mean large enough to be measured beyond a margin of error.

 

[HigherStateD]

I am not debating that e-liquid violates the laws of physics. I am inquiring if the pressure change in your atomizer is enough to make a significant difference. And by significant I mean large enough to be measured beyond a margin of error.

You mean like, suffice t suction to cause a medical condition known as dry socket? Or displace, say, a volume of water in a clear glass tube?

 

[Eskie]

I agree, that 2015 NEJM study was flawed on several levels. It was a garbage study.

However I disagree that you taste it before the nasties start increasing rapidly.

See Formaldehyde Levels in a real atty under real conditions. | E-Cigarette Forum for actual test conditions.

My testing was done under actual and realistic vaping conditions, and I personally vaped it under those conditions. I didnt taste anything burnt until about 505F, however above 450F the adlehyde levels start climbing fast, and at 500F they are in the lower range of actual cigarette smoke.

A minor point (well not that minor), but to clarify, that NEJM report was a letter of correspondence to the editors, not a full, peer reviewed article. Much has been made of that letter by the ANTZ crowd as carrying significant weight because of where it appeared, but to be clear it was never a full study peer reviewed for validity and accuracy.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

You mean like, suffice t suction to cause a medical condition known as dry socket? Or displace, say, a volume of water in a clear glass tube?

No, I mean by you stating that you have lowered your boiling point by using an MTL atomizer. How much have you lowered it by? 1°, 10°, 100°? If a 100° then I would say that is beyond a margin of error and significant enough to which I would like to ask how you came to that conclusion. By sharing your facts, as in conclusive evidence within the environment to which the subject is being used, you are educating and benefiting others. I do not vape glass tubes with water or what ever a dry socket is, therefore this correlation does not apply. I get your theory, but you are not providing evidence that it is working within a vaping environment.

 

[HigherStateD]

I understand the point your are trying to get across but feel the advantages, as stated, are debatable. Being pushed hard is difficult to define unless the same device is being used. There are way too many variables involved.

I'd agree with you that the advantages are overstated. That's sort of the point I'm trying to make, in that temperature alone isn't the only factor, and resistance of the wire only allows for, at BEST,. An average temperature across the entire coil, if TC is setup properly. There are just way to many variables, that being said, I'd take a lap seat belt over none at all.

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[GOMuniEsq]

Thank you very much @mikepetro for taking the time to conduct that informative study showing that there is a zone of increasing concern between 440ºF and 500ºF (225ºC and 260ºC) where the base VG and PG will decompose into aldehydes, yet not be perceivable as a dry hit.

Looks like the most dramatic reduction in boiling point comes from adding DW. I figure 30PG/70 juice with 3% DW ought to be alright.

Until I read your blog I had dismissed TC as a crutch for bad builders, but now I see the technology has some real value as a safety.

 

[HigherStateD]

No, I mean by you stating that you have lowered your boiling point by using an MTL atomizer. How much have you lowered it by? 1°, 10°, 100°? If a 100° then I would say that is beyond a margin of error and significant enough to which I would like to ask how you came to that conclusion. By sharing your facts, as in conclusive evidence within the environment to which the subject is being used, you are educating and benefiting others. I do not vape glass tubes with water or what ever a dry socket is, therefore this correlation does not apply. I get your theory, but you are not providing evidence that it is working within a vaping environment.

Between 50-200 degrees Fahrenheit, depending on the type of flavors.


A dry socket is a medical condition caused by suction in the mouth, most notably from smoking.

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[zoiDman]

Between 50-200 degrees Fahrenheit, depending on the type of flavors.

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Are you say'n that there is a Boiling Point Drop of 50 ~ 200 Degrees Fahrenheit due to a Drop in Atmospheric Pressure inside your Atomizer?

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Between 50-200 degrees Fahrenheit, depending on the type of flavors.


A dry socket is a medical condition caused by suction in the mouth, most notably from smoking.

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And how do you conclude you have decreased the boiling point by 200°F?