From CNN.com Today/Eissenberg study with feedback

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Mister

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And turned him off.
If we've done that, I have mixed feelings about whether it would be a good thing.

For my direct selfish desires I would very much like to see Dr. Eissenberg do further studies of e-cigs. I can and will read the details and can form my own conclusions. If e-cigs are worse for me than smoking I want to know and I'll be among the first to go back to cigarettes. I only switched to vaping because 1) everything known about them so far indicates that they're less harmful (hugely less harmful) and 2) they work (other less harmful methods have not worked for me.)

But as Kristen points out:
Think of how many smokers will read that and die from cancer or other lung diseases because your "study" made them think ecigs wouldn't cut it for them.
If a study is done, its methods and data are good, but it is misrepresented to the media, that can do a lot of harm. I don't have confidence that Dr. Eissenberg won't do that.

And BTW, yes I mean the word "misrepresented." Some of Dr. Eissenberg's quotes leave debatable wiggle room for saying things about being out of context and having qualifications in the report. And he's done a good bit of wiggling here. But two examples stand out to me as being entirely unsubstantiated by anything in the study:
"What we have here is a product which seems to contain nicotine but in fact is unable to deliver it to the people who are using it"

"These data scream out for the need for regulation of these devices“​
Given those statements being made in the context of this study, I'm not sure I want to see more studies from Dr. Eissenberg regardless of how much I'd appreciate the data.
 

Lithium1330

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But as Kristen points out:

If a study is done, its methods and data are good, but it is misrepresented to the media, that can do a lot of harm. I don't have confidence that Dr. Eissenberg won't do that.

And BTW, yes I mean the word "misrepresented." Some of Dr. Eissenberg's quotes leave debatable wiggle room for saying things about being out of context and having qualifications in the report. And he's done a good bit of wiggling here. But two examples stand out to me as being entirely unsubstantiated by anything in the study:
"What we have here is a product which seems to contain nicotine but in fact is unable to deliver it to the people who are using it"

"These data scream out for the need for regulation of these devices“
Given those statements being made in the context of this study, I'm not sure I want to see more studies from Dr. Eissenberg regardless of how much I'd appreciate the data.

Exactly, to me Dr. E. used a very limited study to spread propaganda to the media, the same propaganda we have seen from the FDA, ASH and the like, I'm not surprised at the study's results, what that study shows is that 10 short puffs from an e-cigarette at 16mg do not deliver the same nicotine as 10 short puffs from a cigarette, nothing else, what I think is very wrong is to use that very limited study to talk to the media in the way he did.

If you are looking for a friend, turn your head to people like Mr. Bill Godshall, not to the FDA, ASH and the like.
 

hifistud

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Well, effectively, Dr. Tom's study has been reviewed - perhaps not exactly peer-reviewed, but reviewed it most certainly has been. And that review has found shortcomings in the methodology that point to a pressing need for further study with a modified methodology in order to achieve less biased results. Insofar as it goes, it provides unsurprising data - indeed, there will be many on here who would have said "I could have told you that" (and, indeed, have!).

What I hope comes out of it is that Dr. Tom presses on, but, next time, takes onboard some of the compelling advice he has received here. I'd also hope that he couches his conclusions and soundbites in a language less likely to leave itself open to misinterpretation, and refrain from generalisations that the study itself cannot conclusively prove.

In truth, it would be very easy to conclude that, due to the nature of the language used in his conclusions, he has been in the pocket of the tobacco companies. That he is not, by his own claim, I accept - but it is not difficult to draw that conclusion from the words he has used.

In the long term, I suspect this study will end up doing more good than harm. In the short term, though, it will do more harm than good. And that is a shame.
 

kristin

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This study proved NOTHING it set out to determine regarding nicotine.

Give 16 automatic transmission-only drivers a manual transmission car, WITHOUT instructions, give them 20 minutes to figure out how to drive it, see them unable to move the car forward more than 10 feet, conclude that manual transmission cars won't be able to get people from point A to point B, then publish a press release saying that automatic transmission cars get people from point A to point B better than manual transmission cars.

That is essentially what was done with ecigs in this "study." Unfortunately, unlike the above scenario, where continuing to drive automatics, because you believe manuals won't work, continuing to only use an automatic transmission won't kill you like smoking tobacco will.

The only thing this study was good for proving is that ecigs need better instructions included in the box.
 

Katmar

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    This study proved NOTHING it set out to determine regarding nicotine.

    Give 16 automatic transmission-only drivers a manual transmission car, WITHOUT instructions, give them 20 minutes to figure out how to drive it, see them unable to move the car forward more than 10 feet, conclude that manual transmission cars won't be able to get people from point A to point B, then publish a press release saying that automatic transmission cars get people from point A to point B better than manual transmission cars.

    That is essentially what was done with ecigs in this "study." Unfortunately, unlike the above scenario, where continuing to drive automatics, because you believe manuals won't work, continuing to only use an automatic transmission won't kill you like smoking tobacco will.

    The only thing this study was good for proving is that ecigs need better instructions included in the box.

    I have read all of the threads regarding this "study", and I have to say I totally agree with Kristin. Too many soundbites and not enough neutrality. As someone else said, corrections could have been made, either in press releases, OR comment section by Dr. E. Neither was done...

    If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck.......
     

    TropicalBob

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    Nope. Read the study. It proves its conclusions. If you want different conclusions, conduct a different study. But to say this one proves nothing is just incorrect.

    Here's what I think Dr. Eissenberg should do, similar to what was done for the Malaysian study:

    Select participants based on no prior knowledge of e-smoking; buy each a new electronic cigarette and let each take it home, asking each to use it as they see fit and to record their usage; after one week, bring them into a clinical setting and test a 10-puff use (which is fair and comparable to using a tobacco cigarette). See what you get.

    This would also allow recording a drop-out rate of those who think these things just suck.
     

    kristin

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    The study proves what it set out to prove, based on their methodology. Insisting on only 10 puffs and not learning how to use the device biased the study.

    If it was truly to study the nicotine delivery efficacy, they wouldn't have set it up they way they did. They had a choice on how to set up the testing criteria and their methods were naive at best. To assume that the typical ecig novice wouldn't seek advice or instruction was a bias and not reflective of anecdotal evidence of real-life use. I'm not talking about modders and 36mg drippers - I'm talking about the average user who seek advice and instruction.

    Like I said in my car analogy - the user criteria they insisted on set up the product to meet the results they were seeking, not what would happen in real life. If you buy an Ikea cabinet and don't read the instructions to assemble it and it falls apart, who's fault is it - Ikea's or your's?

    His results were based on user error, not fact.

    The doctor's video stated he was attempting to reproduce how a new ecig user would behave. A new user would not spend $100, take 10 puffs and give up. They would seek guidance and learn to use it properly - whether on the internet or going back to the kiosk and asking the salesperson.
     

    kristin

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    Select participants based on no prior knowledge of e-smoking; buy each a new electronic cigarette and let each take it home, asking each to use it as they see fit and to record their usage; after one week, bring them into a clinical setting and test a 10-puff use (which is fair and comparable to using a tobacco cigarette). See what you get.
    I agree 100%. Except get a researcher without so much bias against ecigs.
     

    ChipCurtis

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    The study certainly does prove its conclusions.

    Although, that is far from the nature of the complaint mostly being voiced here.

    It's not about whether or not he proved what he wanted to prove; it's about the constricted framework (completely arbitrary in my opinion) from which he set forth in his quest. Any intelligent, unbiased individual, knowing what they know about e-cigs from all the information in this forum, can clearly see that.

    Either he was completely ignorant (innocently) about e-cigs , or he (non-innocently) set about to restrict the methodology of the study in order to achieve a fore-ordained result. Either possibility is still a fundamental negative for vapers. I'm not even trying to determine which it is, it really doesn't matter. The result is the same: bad press for vapers.
     

    TropicalBob

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    We're on the same train, Kristin, riding in the same car, in fact. I agree .. but be very careful about slamming a researcher for entering a project with a preconceived bias. This man has done lots of previous testing. He knows what he's doing. He tested in a set of circumstances you find objectionable. He got what he got. And I'm not surprised, given how he tested.

    Personally, I'd suggest we all drop the "bias" charges and let him proceed with further testing. He showed courage and honesty to come here and respond here. He did not back down -- and I admire him greatly for that. Some think that's a fatal flaw; I think that's a badge of courage and honor. When bullies badger, how does a person of integrity respond?

    I look forward to future tests, and hope that our better suggestions are incorporated, and our ignorant utterances are forgotten.
     

    curiousJan

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    We're on the same train, Kristin, riding in the same car, in fact. I agree .. but be very careful about slamming a researcher for entering a project with a preconceived bias. This man has done lots of previous testing. He knows what he's doing.

    Frankly that's exactly what I'm afraid of ... not what you meant, I know, but my honest opinion nonetheless.

    He tested in a set of circumstances you find objectionable. He got what he got. And I'm not surprised, given how he tested.

    Personally, I'd suggest we all drop the "bias" charges and let him proceed with further testing. He showed courage and honesty to come here and respond here.

    Courage, yes. Honesty has yet to be determined. And whether you agree or not, there are many here, myself included, that have serious doubts about his honesty based on valid, substantiated, and unaddressed points of concern.

    He did not back down -- and I admire him greatly for that. Some think that's a fatal flaw; I think that's a badge of courage and honor. When bullies badger, how does a person of integrity respond?

    Correct, he did not sway from his original position. Does that show integrity? Maybe, it could also be a very clear indication of a closed minded position. The fact that many simple to verify and clarify aspects were flawed in the completed study only supports that possibility.

    I look forward to future tests, and hope that our better suggestions are incorporated, and our ignorant utterances are forgotten.

    Disagreement is not ignorance. :mad:
     

    Belletrist

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    In truth, it would be very easy to conclude that, due to the nature of the language used in his conclusions, he has been in the pocket of the tobacco companies. That he is not, by his own claim, I accept - but it is not difficult to draw that conclusion from the words he has used.

    In the long term, I suspect this study will end up doing more good than harm. In the short term, though, it will do more harm than good. And that is a shame.

    agree wholeheartedly.
     

    Vocalek

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    My analogy went like this: Everyone knows that a bottle of beer and a shot of whiskey contain approximately the same amount of alcohol. We will structure our experiment to test bottles of two brands of beer against vodka and water (placebo condition). We will provide the members of each group with a one-ounce container of their (randomly) assigned liquid, which they will be instructed to drink in 10 sips. We will then measure their blood alcohol level at various time intervals. We will find the blood alcohol levels of the two groups of beer drinkers relatively unchanged compared with the BAL of the vodka drinkers. We will then announce to the world that beer delivers no more alcohol than water and call for stricter regulation on beer.
     
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    curiousJan

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    My analogy went like this: Everyone knows that a bottle of beer and a shot of whiskey contain approximately the same amount of alcohol. We will structure our experiment to test bottles of two brands of beer against vodka and water (placebo condition). We will provide the members of each group with a one-ounce container of their (randomly) assigned liquid, which they will be instructed to drink in 10 sips. We will then measure their blood alcohol level at various time intervals. We will find the blood alcohol levels of the two groups of beer drinkers relatively unchanged compared with the BAL of the vodka drinkers. We will then announce to the world that beer delivers no more alcohol than water and call for stricter regulation on beer.

    Very nice (and dead-on) analogy!!
     

    kristin

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    We're on the same train, Kristin, riding in the same car, in fact. I agree .. but be very careful about slamming a researcher for entering a project with a preconceived bias. This man has done lots of previous testing. He knows what he's doing. He tested in a set of circumstances you find objectionable. He got what he got. And I'm not surprised, given how he tested.

    Personally, I'd suggest we all drop the "bias" charges and let him proceed with further testing. He showed courage and honesty to come here and respond here. He did not back down -- and I admire him greatly for that. Some think that's a fatal flaw; I think that's a badge of courage and honor. When bullies badger, how does a person of integrity respond?

    I look forward to future tests, and hope that our better suggestions are incorporated, and our ignorant utterances are forgotten.

    Bob, I agree that it took courage for him to post here. Given that, he must have expected some heated discussion. Any scientist who publishes a study faces that prospect - consider peer reviews.

    However, I feel that pointing out to him his bias is proactive. If he's going to do more tests and affect the future health of millions of smokers, he needs to be able to see things from various viewpoints.

    The biggest objection I have is not necessarily his conslusion but how he is presenting those conclusions to the public.

    This study proved that if you give no instruction to the user, improperly use the device and give only limited exposure, the devices do not effectively deliver nicotine.

    However, that very narrow conlcusion is being broadly interpreted & portrayed, by both the media and Virginia Commonwealth University, as a indication that electronic cigarettes aren't delivering nicotine at all, under any circumstances.

    The following quotes are from the Virginia Commonwealth website:

    Electronic cigarettes should be evaluated, regulated, labeled and packaged in a manner consistent with cartridge content and product effect – even if that effect is a total failure to deliver nicotine as demonstrated in a study supported by the National Cancer Institute and led by a Virginia Commonwealth University researcher.

    This quote does not concede that the testing was very narrow and under unrealistic conditions. It strongly suggests that ecigs, in general, not just under the conditions testing was done, have a total failure to deliver nicotine. Period. Who says they aren't affective if the user is properly instructed and given time to adjust to a new device?

    Further, “electronic cigarettes” currently are unregulated in the U.S., unlike other products intended to deliver nicotine to smokers such as lozenges, gum and patches.

    Taken from the same press release. Note that the study wasn't comparing them to NRTs, yet the press release adds this nice little comment to make ecigs sound dangerous. Why is this even in there other than a scare tactic?

    It’s not just that they delivered less nicotine than a cigarette. Rather, they delivered no measurable nicotine at all. In terms of nicotine delivery, these products were as effective as puffing from an unlit cigarette,” said principal investigator Thomas Eissenberg, Ph.D., professor in the VCU Department of Psychology.

    Note, he does not qualify his comments that they were tested under specific conditions that may have affected the outcome. I may as well stick 16 people in a room with a Virginia Commonwealth physics textook, test them on their knowledge 40 minutes later and declare that the University doesn't deliver on it's promise to educate students. If I don't tell people the conditions the test subjects were given, people assume I put them in a classroom with a professor and the test subjects failed.

    It doesn't matter that people can go read the study and find out for themselves. 99% of people will just read what they are told in the headlines.

    In Eissenberg’s study, 16 participants engaged in four different sessions – each separated by 48 hours – which included smoking their preferred brand of cigarettes, puffing an unlit cigarette, or using one of two different brands of “electronic cigarettes” loaded with “high” strength, which is 16 mg, nicotine cartridges.

    They went this far to describe the testing, yet didn't find it noteworthy that the subjects were not instructed in the proper use of the devices? I think most people would find that extremely relevant.

    They observed that when participants used the two brands of “electronic cigarettes,” there was no significant increase in nicotine levels or heart rate, and little reduction in craving. However, when participants smoked their own brand of cigarettes, substantial and significant increases in plasma nicotine and heart rate, and decreases in craving were observed.

    This is just a shocking and disgusting statement. What does this really say to consumers looking into electronic cigarettes?? It says, "Don't waste your money on ecigs - smoking will satisfy your cravings better."

    No comments about the fact that, in spite of this, hundreds of thousands of ecig users still claim that they find them satisfying.

    Don't tell me there is no bias.
     
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    Bill Godshall

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    It should be noted that Eissenberg designed his study in June 2009, and it was posted at Evaluating the Acute Effects of Electronic Nicotine Delivery Devices Marketed to Smokers. - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

    Eissenberg is presenting his study next week at the Society for Research on Nicotine and Tobacco next week in Baltimore Society for Research on Nicotine and Tobacco

    It would be helpful if some e-cigarette users attend, and asked Eissenberg (at his presentation) some of the many questions he refused to answer and his many contradictory statements that he refused to address on this forum.

    But its expensive to attend, and most participants are funded by drug companies and/or NIH. Murray Laugesen The Ruyan® (nicotine) E-Cigarette
    from New Zealand (who conducted Ruyan's studies) is attending.
     

    rothenbj

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    The study certainly does prove its conclusions.

    Although, that is far from the nature of the complaint mostly being voiced here.

    It's not about whether or not he proved what he wanted to prove; it's about the constricted framework (completely arbitrary in my opinion) from which he set forth in his quest. Any intelligent, unbiased individual, knowing what they know about e-cigs from all the information in this forum, can clearly see that.

    Either he was completely ignorant (innocently) about e-cigs , or he (non-innocently) set about to restrict the methodology of the study in order to achieve a fore-ordained result. Either possibility is still a fundamental negative for vapers. I'm not even trying to determine which it is, it really doesn't matter. The result is the same: bad press for vapers.

    Even more so, bad press for smokers, just like there Fda dog and pony show. I know so many people that look at e cigs as being more dangerous than analogs because of their theatrics.

    Now you add these sound bits that they Don't work. It's discouraging.

    *edit* Got interrupted by a potential convert who saw me vaping. Now I have to go through a whole dialogue on politics, I hate it.

    He was thinking about the mall, now waiting for my email. His father is 64 and just got diagnosed with the big E. Got him and his wife thinking.
     
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