Yes. Peer reviewed studies with data to back up the findings would be the norm.
Greetings and toxicology
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Yes. Peer reviewed studies with data to back up the findings would be the norm.
If you know what thjose chemicals are you can infer how harmful they may be. Several studies have found harmful chemicals in vape, but, at such low concentrations as to be deemed not harmful. Certain chemicals can be dangerous in the lungs even in trace amounts. Those are the ones to be concerned about. The study I linked in the OP brought up something new that wasn't shown in previous studies I had read, formaldehyde. This is one to be more concerned of as its one of the more dangerous additives in tobacco. You can google it right now and find several studies showing that it can be harmful in concentrations far below the current permissible exposure regulations.
This is something I know about. You cannot simply infer that if you know what a chemical is it must therefore be harmful. I'm sorry but that is just poor science. Formaldehyde is a digestion product. You produce it after every meal. More to the point, there is no peer-reviewed study showing harmful levels of anything in vaping. There is too much fear-mongering about things that no-one has proved.
It wasn't my intent to "fear monger." But I have to disagree it is poor science. If a product contains a chemical that is known to be dangerous to inhale over certain levels. Than lacking other evidence it is better to assume that if that product has those levels or higher it is also dangerous. When put into perspective against smoke, something I did whilst being fully aware of the danger, vaping appears quite safe. I agree we need more study and peer-review though. Until such its good to work with what we do have.
Oh, and while several older studies state to the contrary there are newer studies that indicate formaldehyde causes leukimia when inhaled.
Oxygen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Toxicity
Oxygen gas (O2) can be toxic at elevated partial pressures, leading to convulsions and other health problems.[87][107][108] Oxygen toxicity usually begins to occur at partial pressures more than 50 kilopascals (kPa), or 2.5 times the normal sea-level O2 partial pressure of about 21 kPa (equal to about 50% oxygen composition at standard pressure). This is not a problem except for patients on mechanical ventilators, since gas supplied through oxygen masks in medical applications is typically composed of only 30%–50% O2 by volume (about 30 kPa at standard pressure).[26] (although this figure also is subject to wide variation, depending on type of mask).
At one time, premature babies were placed in incubators containing O2-rich air, but this practice was discontinued after some babies were blinded by it.[26][109]
Breathing pure O2 in space applications, such as in some modern space suits, or in early spacecraft such as Apollo, causes no damage due to the low total pressures used.[85][110] In the case of spacesuits, the O2 partial pressure in the breathing gas is, in general, about 30 kPa (1.4 times normal), and the resulting O2 partial pressure in the astronaut's arterial blood is only marginally more than normal sea-level O2 partial pressure (for more information on this, see space suit and arterial blood gas).
Oxygen toxicity to the lungs and central nervous system can also occur in deep scuba diving and surface supplied diving.[26][87] Prolonged breathing of an air mixture with an O2 partial pressure more than 60 kPa can eventually lead to permanent pulmonary fibrosis.[111] Exposure to a O2 partial pressures greater than 160 kPa (about 1.6 atm) may lead to convulsions (normally fatal for divers). Acute oxygen toxicity (causing seizures, its most feared effect for divers) can occur by breathing an air mixture with 21% O2 at 66 m or more of depth; the same thing can occur by breathing 100% O2 at only 6 m.[111][112][113][114]
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If you take it all literally then Oxygen should be avoided at ALL costs, you should NEVER expose yourself to it. Science can be taken far too literally, Reality is a bit more complex than exact chemical reactions. Life is a bit more robust than trace amounts of toxins, and everybody is different. What kills one person makes a different person stronger. We have never lived in a pristine environment, we have had pollution, natural and artificial, for our entire span of existence - and we are still here. We are not as susceptible to trace contaminants as literal science would have us believe. Science, as with Religion, has to be taken in moderation. Sole belief in either is unbalanced and will skew our opinions in a non-real direction. Just my opinion.
Toxicity
Oxygen gas (O2) can be toxic at elevated partial pressures, leading to convulsions and other health problems.[87][107][108] Oxygen toxicity usually begins to occur at partial pressures more than 50 kilopascals (kPa), or 2.5 times the normal sea-level O2 partial pressure of about 21 kPa (equal to about 50% oxygen composition at standard pressure). This is not a problem except for patients on mechanical ventilators, since gas supplied through oxygen masks in medical applications is typically composed of only 30%–50% O2 by volume (about 30 kPa at standard pressure).[26] (although this figure also is subject to wide variation, depending on type of mask).
At one time, premature babies were placed in incubators containing O2-rich air, but this practice was discontinued after some babies were blinded by it.[26][109]
Breathing pure O2 in space applications, such as in some modern space suits, or in early spacecraft such as Apollo, causes no damage due to the low total pressures used.[85][110] In the case of spacesuits, the O2 partial pressure in the breathing gas is, in general, about 30 kPa (1.4 times normal), and the resulting O2 partial pressure in the astronaut's arterial blood is only marginally more than normal sea-level O2 partial pressure (for more information on this, see space suit and arterial blood gas).
Oxygen toxicity to the lungs and central nervous system can also occur in deep scuba diving and surface supplied diving.[26][87] Prolonged breathing of an air mixture with an O2 partial pressure more than 60 kPa can eventually lead to permanent pulmonary fibrosis.[111] Exposure to a O2 partial pressures greater than 160 kPa (about 1.6 atm) may lead to convulsions (normally fatal for divers). Acute oxygen toxicity (causing seizures, its most feared effect for divers) can occur by breathing an air mixture with 21% O2 at 66 m or more of depth; the same thing can occur by breathing 100% O2 at only 6 m.[111][112][113][114]
===
If you take it all literally then Oxygen should be avoided at ALL costs, you should NEVER expose yourself to it. Science can be taken far too literally, Reality is a bit more complex than exact chemical reactions. Life is a bit more robust than trace amounts of toxins, and everybody is different. What kills one person makes a different person stronger. We have never lived in a pristine environment, we have had pollution, natural and artificial, for our entire span of existence - and we are still here. We are not as susceptible to trace contaminants as literal science would have us believe. Science, as with Religion, has to be taken in moderation. Sole belief in either is unbalanced and will skew our opinions in a non-real direction. Just my opinion.
I would point out a few things...
1. Propylene Glycol is a standard ingredient used in high volume in the majority of medical inhalers available. It is also antibacterial and antiviral. As such, it helps reduce product contamination and extends shelf-life. Vegetable Glycerine, while largely inert, has no such properties innately. My greatest concerns related to PG and VG though, are not whether they are going to kill us all agonizingly or make our babies have two heads and six eyeballs, but rather will their fate be determined good basic science, or politics and influence-peddling.
2. Learning about what flavoring ingredients may be detrimental to one's health is just a matter of learning about what flavoring ingredients may be detrimental to one's health and choosing to either continue to take the associated risk or stop using them. If you didn't know cinnamon, vanilla, peppers and fruit/veggy acids could potentially cause you some health issues, now you do...so it's decision-making time. There are others, so let us endeavor to learn about them. In these matters, Knowledge + Intelligent Action = Solution.
3. There are plastics, and then there are plastics. Some plastics may not be inert, may become unstable, or absorb and leach liquids, but others don't appear to be that way or do so at all over the general life of the products. We know this, not from eCigs, but from decades other reusable product uses that have life spans much longer than the typical carto or tank. So, the issue is not about plastics per say, but rather, which plastics are safe and unsafe for a particular type of product use.
4. Even though it seems to be more the norm than the exception in our societies these days, freaking out does not further science. I like the idea of solid research and controlled studies of all aspects of ecig usage. I like the idea of not using potentially problematic ingredients in my inhalers. I like the idea of glass over plastic, but then again, as with plastics, not all glasses are the same. Most of all, I like the idea of us all taking our time to sort all of these concerns out rather than addressing them out of thinking based on fear with just about enough knowledge to fuel our concerns.
My recommendation would be to take it easy and give it all a little time. My guess would be that, not only has no one become gravely ill or died today as a result of vaping a cinnamon-flavored solution encased in plastic while reading this thread, I doubt anyone has ever died from such vaping. Do you feel that, "No I didn't die from it, but someday I might, and it might be HORRIBLE!!", or are concerned that vaping might cause your future baby to have two heads and six eyeballs—or maybe that you'll someday kill a bunch of other people due to them having breathed your second-hand vapes?
Then I guess the decision for you would be, "Do I get to work with others sorting through these issues, go back to smoking my Big Tobacco death sticks, or go Cold Turkey and get away from all this stuff?" The choice of which paths we take are up to each of us and no one else, but neither are we isolated islands left all alone to ourselves. The good news is, the help and support, the caution and encouragement, the learning and growth, and the friendship and enlightenment we all need is what this place is all about. So wut u gon du?
1. Propylene Glycol is a standard ingredient used in high volume in the majority of medical inhalers available. It is also antibacterial and antiviral. As such, it helps reduce product contamination and extends shelf-life. Vegetable Glycerine, while largely inert, has no such properties innately. My greatest concerns related to PG and VG though, are not whether they are going to kill us all agonizingly or make our babies have two heads and six eyeballs, but rather will their fate be determined good basic science, or politics and influence-peddling.
2. Learning about what flavoring ingredients may be detrimental to one's health is just a matter of learning about what flavoring ingredients may be detrimental to one's health and choosing to either continue to take the associated risk or stop using them. If you didn't know cinnamon, vanilla, peppers and fruit/veggy acids could potentially cause you some health issues, now you do...so it's decision-making time. There are others, so let us endeavor to learn about them. In these matters, Knowledge + Intelligent Action = Solution.
3. There are plastics, and then there are plastics. Some plastics may not be inert, may become unstable, or absorb and leach liquids, but others don't appear to be that way or do so at all over the general life of the products. We know this, not from eCigs, but from decades other reusable product uses that have life spans much longer than the typical carto or tank. So, the issue is not about plastics per say, but rather, which plastics are safe and unsafe for a particular type of product use.
4. Even though it seems to be more the norm than the exception in our societies these days, freaking out does not further science. I like the idea of solid research and controlled studies of all aspects of ecig usage. I like the idea of not using potentially problematic ingredients in my inhalers. I like the idea of glass over plastic, but then again, as with plastics, not all glasses are the same. Most of all, I like the idea of us all taking our time to sort all of these concerns out rather than addressing them out of thinking based on fear with just about enough knowledge to fuel our concerns.
My recommendation would be to take it easy and give it all a little time. My guess would be that, not only has no one become gravely ill or died today as a result of vaping a cinnamon-flavored solution encased in plastic while reading this thread, I doubt anyone has ever died from such vaping. Do you feel that, "No I didn't die from it, but someday I might, and it might be HORRIBLE!!", or are concerned that vaping might cause your future baby to have two heads and six eyeballs—or maybe that you'll someday kill a bunch of other people due to them having breathed your second-hand vapes?
Then I guess the decision for you would be, "Do I get to work with others sorting through these issues, go back to smoking my Big Tobacco death sticks, or go Cold Turkey and get away from all this stuff?" The choice of which paths we take are up to each of us and no one else, but neither are we isolated islands left all alone to ourselves. The good news is, the help and support, the caution and encouragement, the learning and growth, and the friendship and enlightenment we all need is what this place is all about. So wut u gon du?
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There is no evidence that vapers are inhaling any chemical over a dangerous level. What you're saying isn't making scientific sense. When you have peer-reviewed studies pointing to dangerous levels of chemicals then there is cause for concern. Trace amounts of naturally occurring products do not equal that. It is not enough to point to the name of a chemical and assume. If that were true we'd starve to death, because some of the chemicals you're concerned about are in our food. Diacetyl and acetonin are in butter, and are routinely added to margarine. Sodium salicylate can act as a natural anti-inflammatory agent, and has been found to have anti-cancer properties.
Just knowing something is present doesn't mean we can assume its harmful.
If there are genuine biomedical concerns then in vivo testing and peer review is the path. However, so far every doctor I have encountered as had no concerns about vaping.
I like useing that argument myself at times. Vitamin C being my favorite target. It is important to understand how concentration levels are measured. It is also good to know the volume of your lungs. When vaping with an average setup with your average liquid you will get about 1 mg of the liquid per second that you vape. The average lung capacity of a male is about 0.006m3. With these assumptions as to what may be average we can begin to compare concentration levels of whats in the liquid.
Edit: I somehow managed to post this before I was done, but, I think I'v accidentally ODed on my caffiene and need a break. Be back later.
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Science isn't done with assumptions. And no, you can't compare concentration levels because you haven't the data showing what concentration has been administered. To do what you propose you would need to know the concentration in the vapor (not the juice), and then the lung capacity of the vaper - keeping in mind that most vapers were smokers and will not all have maximum lung capacity. You would need a statistical sample based on several tests. And then at best all you would be saying is that a certain amount of something made up a certain amount of the inhaled volume.
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ClearStream by FlavourArt | ClearStream by FlavourArt
There are studies going on in Europe I recommend following the Clear Stream project.
There are studies going on in Europe I recommend following the Clear Stream project.
While this does sound alarming it is important to remember what we do know about analogs and BIG TOBACCO. More than 150 cancer causing agents not to mention the aditives that are supposed to increase the addictive properities. However at the end over the day Knowledge IS power. Thank you for starting this thread.
"Both projects, funded by FlavourArt", index , is my only concern, it hardly seems dispassionate when the study is funded by the industry itself. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of multiple studies, and I realize that non-interested parties are less likely to fund studies, I just think that with so many people becoming interested in Vaping for their own reasons, that every study should be scrutinized for it's accuracy and dispassionate viewpoint. This study seems to be on-the-level, so perhaps carries more weight.
Yes, I read that study just the other day here at ECF, in another forum. The formaldehyde they found was 5-10 times less than what is found in analogs. Which is within 'standards' for human consumption. That being said, I think I'll continue using my 70%PG / 30% VG, or maybe up my VG alittle more. Haven't decided yet. But something I recommend to everyone is to use GLASS! I will no longer recommend plastic tanks such as the plastic Vivi Nova's, clearomizers, or CE2 or plastic tubing cartomizer tanks to anyone. There are glass and stainless steel tanks 'out there'...I think there is a SS version of the Vivi Novas, and I know there are glass and stainless steel tanks for cartomizer tanks. Also, keep your juice in GLASS bottles! All my stuff is in glass anymore.
Great post BTW!
Yeah, I purchased the metal tank option with my vivi nova for that reason (if it broke/reacted). I think it was a couple/three bucks.
As to the rest, my take (replying to an early post and not having read everything in this thread yet...still reading):
Many/most of the vendors have eliminated diacetyl due to concerns about it (justified or not, above/below "tolerable levels" or not) but it's always good to check if you are concerned. As to acrolein, if I even remember properly, it's a function of how much heat is present and comes most easily from the VG, not the PG, but can come from either.
All this stuff seems pretty dependent on the heat at the coil. There are studies, but the point about "e-juice can contain anything" is a valid one. We just haven't had tests on every flavor and PG/VG ratio on the market. I do think the vendors try to stick with what they believe are safe flavorings. We won't even know the full effects of this vaping thing for another 20 years...
I try to keep my DIY e-juices simple with regard to flavorings. If I was particularly worried, I'd probably vape unflavored e-juice. But the flavorings help keep me off cigs...I can't stand unflavored juice. Ack!. Too much VG is too "heavy" on my lungs. That counts too. IDK how people vape 100% VG juices, but I'm glad if it works for them. Doesn't for me.
So vape the cleanest stuff you can manage if you are worried about it. If you are really worried, vape unflavored and DIY it from the cleanest nic you can find.
Bottom line is that although there are positive studies they just haven't studied every combination of everything out there. I sincerely hope it ALL turns out OK and they we worried for nothing. Some studies indicate some harmful stuff at very low levels. This is harm reduction; nobody in their right mind has claimed it's 100% safe in all devices for all juices at all voltages that I know of.
Best to inhale air only. Unless of course you are in a major city with smog... then go look at those studies.
What can ya do?Best guesses.
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I am new to vaping and have also done quite extensive research into the mechanics of vaping. The one thing I have noted so far is the company I purchase my e-juice from does not list all the ingredients (including the flavour and its breakdown) on the bottle. I am hoping in the future this will change.
I do have food allergies and do react sometimes to certain dyes, colouring used in foods. Hopefully through experimenting I will find what works and does not work. It would be so much easier if all companies producing e-juice would have a detailed list of ingredients.
Thank you for sharing your findings! This forum has helped me so much!
Happy Vaping!
I do have food allergies and do react sometimes to certain dyes, colouring used in foods. Hopefully through experimenting I will find what works and does not work. It would be so much easier if all companies producing e-juice would have a detailed list of ingredients.
Thank you for sharing your findings! This forum has helped me so much!
Happy Vaping!
I agree with this. Time will tell where are the hearts of those who choose to engage themselves in this relatively small, but burgeoning industry.
Well I've read up a lot about propylene glycol.
It's used in breathing treatments, fog machines, non-toxic antifreeze, and more. It's an antibacterial and antiviral. They use it in disinfectants. The did a test with monkeys being exposed to propylene glycol for VERY long periods of time with no side effects. Occasionally people have allergic reactions, but it's rare. The most is usually ever does is irritate the eyes. Toxicity in humans is very very low and would be almost impossible to reach.
What is in your flavors you should be concerned about. I've heard about cinnamon flavors literally destroying the plastic on the tank. What is extracted with the nicotine should also be a concern.
I would just look through some vendors and order juice with natural flavorings and such.
Either way, I know that it's a vast improvement from cigarettes.
It's used in breathing treatments, fog machines, non-toxic antifreeze, and more. It's an antibacterial and antiviral. They use it in disinfectants. The did a test with monkeys being exposed to propylene glycol for VERY long periods of time with no side effects. Occasionally people have allergic reactions, but it's rare. The most is usually ever does is irritate the eyes. Toxicity in humans is very very low and would be almost impossible to reach.
What is in your flavors you should be concerned about. I've heard about cinnamon flavors literally destroying the plastic on the tank. What is extracted with the nicotine should also be a concern.
I would just look through some vendors and order juice with natural flavorings and such.
Either way, I know that it's a vast improvement from cigarettes.
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There's a good thread going in the General E-Liquid forum about things like this. It would be good to know a bit more on the label for people who have allergies. It doesn't make vaping itself harmful, but for folks who have an allergy it would be good to know. Although I don't think many vendors would be using dyes.
There's an interesting article here, from World Vaping Day, with a bunch of references at the end. This part caught my eye:
So yes, some people have allergies or low tolerance already, and may find it harder to get an e-juice that's suitable for them.
The dyes are in the flavorings and some companies, like Lorann, list which dye (if any) is used. These flavorings were produced for use in food and so the color was included. There is a big difference between eating a dye or flavoring and inhaling it into our lungs. Less harm than smoking but probably not harmless.
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@jespeak... that's why I DIY. I may not know every chemical that makes up a particular flavoring... but if it bothers me I can omit it thereafter, and use the other flavorings (and VG) that doesn't bother me.
FYI - All VGs are not created equal either....even as raw DIY ingredient USPS approved. I had one that bothered me, but from another vendor it's fine.
FYI - All VGs are not created equal either....even as raw DIY ingredient USPS approved. I had one that bothered me, but from another vendor it's fine.
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