Greetings and toxicology

[someone3x7]

I would point out a few things...

1. Propylene Glycol is a standard ingredient used in high volume in the majority of medical inhalers available. It is also antibacterial and antiviral. As such, it helps reduce product contamination and extends shelf-life. Vegetable Glycerine, while largely inert, has no such properties innately. My greatest concerns related to PG and VG though, are not whether they are going to kill us all agonizingly or make our babies have two heads and six eyeballs, but rather will their fate be determined good basic science, or politics and influence-peddling.

2. Learning about what flavoring ingredients may be detrimental to one's health is just a matter of learning about what flavoring ingredients may be detrimental to one's health and choosing to either continue to take the associated risk or stop using them. If you didn't know cinnamon, vanilla, peppers and fruit/veggy acids could potentially cause you some health issues, now you do...so it's decision-making time. There are others, so let us endeavor to learn about them. In these matters, Knowledge + Intelligent Action = Solution.

3. There are plastics, and then there are plastics. Some plastics may not be inert, may become unstable, or absorb and leach liquids, but others don't appear to be that way or do so at all over the general life of the products. We know this, not from eCigs, but from decades other reusable product uses that have life spans much longer than the typical carto or tank. So, the issue is not about plastics per say, but rather, which plastics are safe and unsafe for a particular type of product use.

4. Even though it seems to be more the norm than the exception in our societies these days, freaking out does not further science. I like the idea of solid research and controlled studies of all aspects of ecig usage. I like the idea of not using potentially problematic ingredients in my inhalers. I like the idea of glass over plastic, but then again, as with plastics, not all glasses are the same. Most of all, I like the idea of us all taking our time to sort all of these concerns out rather than addressing them out of thinking based on fear with just about enough knowledge to fuel our concerns.

My recommendation would be to take it easy and give it all a little time. My guess would be that, not only has no one become gravely ill or died today as a result of vaping a cinnamon-flavored solution encased in plastic while reading this thread, I doubt anyone has ever died from such vaping. Do you feel that, "No I didn't die from it, but someday I might, and it might be HORRIBLE!!", or are concerned that vaping might cause your future baby to have two heads and six eyeballs—or maybe that you'll someday kill a bunch of other people due to them having breathed your second-hand vapes?

Then I guess the decision for you would be, "Do I get to work with others sorting through these issues, go back to smoking my Big Tobacco death sticks, or go Cold Turkey and get away from all this stuff?" The choice of which paths we take are up to each of us and no one else, but neither are we isolated islands left all alone to ourselves. The good news is, the help and support, the caution and encouragement, the learning and growth, and the friendship and enlightenment we all need is what this place is all about. So wut u gon du?

Now this is the kind of informative response I was hoping for. Although, I have a couple arguments with it. Concerning Propylene Glycol it is true it has been used in medicine for near 50 years. But those medical inhalers and other products are not using heat to create the vapor. So we unfortunately cannot use them for comparison. We will likely see more study on this topic within the next year though.

Concerning plastics I know there is a big difference between Propylene and Polyethylene, the two most common I've seen in tanks, based plastics and even a wider range of differences in how these are prepared during manufacture. But better plastics are merely more resistant. This does not mean they don't break down if facing a powerful enough plasticizers or acid. Not knowing the exact strength of these ingredients found in some flavorings it would be better for your health to just avoid them altogether if you using a plastic tank.

Concerning point 4, I'm not freaking out. I due come off a little strong sometimes. I could apologize, but, I can promise you I will do it again. `Tis just me. My intention is to identify the potentially harmful ingredients so that I am aware of what I am vaping and may avoid certain things if I care not to risk it. As is I still use a Propylene Glycol based liquid even though I am aware it may release some amount of formaldehyde.

There is no evidence that vapers are inhaling any chemical over a dangerous level. What you're saying isn't making scientific sense. When you have peer-reviewed studies pointing to dangerous levels of chemicals then there is cause for concern. Trace amounts of naturally occurring products do not equal that. It is not enough to point to the name of a chemical and assume. If that were true we'd starve to death, because some of the chemicals you're concerned about are in our food. Diacetyl and acetonin are in butter, and are routinely added to margarine. Sodium salicylate can act as a natural anti-inflammatory agent, and has been found to have anti-cancer properties.

Just knowing something is present doesn't mean we can assume its harmful.

If there are genuine biomedical concerns then in vivo testing and peer review is the path. However, so far every doctor I have encountered as had no concerns about vaping.

Actually, I was hoping to get more info about Sodium Silicate. So far all I have found are loose statements stating, that while safe to ingest, it is harmful to inhale. I would like to find out why some have this opinion. It would be a mistake to assume food-safe is vape-safe. As for studies of inhalation there are plenty of studies for many chemicals done by the manufacturers of these chemicals. They may not be as in depth as a medical study, but, it is very good information. I'm not one to ignore facts presented. Yes, making assumptions and calling them the solution is bad science. What I proposed was making assumptions for the purpose of coming to a solution. What is referred to as a theory. When assumptions are made based on available facts it is not bad science. But I will agree it is not proof either.

Science isn't done with assumptions. And no, you can't compare concentration levels because you haven't the data showing what concentration has been administered. To do what you propose you would need to know the concentration in the vapor (not the juice), and then the lung capacity of the vaper - keeping in mind that most vapers were smokers and will not all have maximum lung capacity. You would need a statistical sample based on several tests. And then at best all you would be saying is that a certain amount of something made up a certain amount of the inhaled volume.

You should thumb through some of the links in this thread. There are a couple studies now showing such concentrations in the vapor itself. Vaporizers burn fairly clean. By which I mean very little material is lost. If its in the liquid it will be in your lungs. Plus there might be more since heating causes additional chemical reactions.

Should we be scared? No. We should be aware though. I seek to increase my awareness.

ClearStream by FlavourArt | ClearStream by FlavourArt

There are studies going on in Europe I recommend following the Clear Stream project.

Many thanks!

Edit: I should ammend my statements about plastics. It isnt good to generalize acids and plastics that much as each has different resistance to different acids.

 

[Cindi]

Great now I am second guessing my decisions on this. All my juices come in plastic. And I just got the plastic ViVi tank... Wow and I do the 50/50 mix is it safe???? And I don't do the cinnamon flavors or methols but have a buttery one... Is it safe... Oh my something else to be scared about... But thanks for the info, just not sure what to do now...,

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

Yes when I first began Vaping I also squired about certain chems and found that many vendors were not completely honest about the ingredients. It was at that point I decided to DIY 1 month after I began Vaping.

From what I've gathered the buttery stuff at TPA is safe. A couple other flavor companies, which I will leave unnamed since this may sound worse than it may be, advertise they are diacytyl free. However, after some conversation with them asking about products when I brought up and asked about acetoin all conversation stopped. It seems they won't reply to anything from me now. Maybe they are just busy double checking their recipes before getting back to me. That could take a week...

 

[antfuzz]

"Both projects, funded by FlavourArt", index , is my only concern, it hardly seems dispassionate when the study is funded by the industry itself. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of multiple studies, and I realize that non-interested parties are less likely to fund studies, I just think that with so many people becoming interested in Vaping for their own reasons, that every study should be scrutinized for it's accuracy and dispassionate viewpoint. This study seems to be on-the-level, so perhaps carries more weight.

They are aware of the downfalls of doing a study of this nature by themselves. New studies from independent labs are in the works.

To mention one thing that I heard about that the study did was they had 2 containers that had living cells in the bottom. In one they blew in cigarette smoke which killed all the living cells. The second one they used vapor from electronic cigarette and the living cells thrived.

There's a lot more studies and interest in doing studies going on in Europe than there is in the US.

 

[AttyPops]

Great now I am second guessing my decisions on this. All my juices come in plastic. And I just got the plastic ViVi tank... Wow and I do the 50/50 mix is it safe???? And I don't do the cinnamon flavors or methols but have a buttery one... Is it safe... Oh my something else to be scared about... But thanks for the info, just not sure what to do now...,

Well, I order juice in plastic bottles when I order it. There's all kinds of plastic too. So if you're worried, transfer it to glass for now... I wouldn't throw it out or anything if it were me.

I also wouldn't freak about 50/50 mix. I've vaped it. I usually vape about 75/25. Who knows. Plenty of people are vaping VG with PG (rationalization on my part?) but hey, better than smoking.

Heck, I'd vape it and continue my research if I was worried about LONG TERM issues.

 

[mr6614]

Very interesting post. Thank you and all who have posted their input and articles. I am also new to vaping and would like to get as much knowledge as I can to see what to look out for and what to stay the hell away from!!! Now I have a decent jump on what to look forward to. Thanks all!

 

[Ilias]

Hi I am new here too , Great post!.
I am 9 days tobacco free after I bought a blu e-cig kit, and even though I have a lot of troubles with the batteries and consistency of the carts (burnt taste) , it is helping me to stay tobacco free. I have concerns over the e-liquid in the carts too , since it seems to contain citric-acid is this the same as citrus acid that you mention in the post?

Thanks

 

[someone3x7]

Great now I am second guessing my decisions on this. All my juices come in plastic. And I just got the plastic ViVi tank... Wow and I do the 50/50 mix is it safe???? And I don't do the cinnamon flavors or methols but have a buttery one... Is it safe... Oh my something else to be scared about... But thanks for the info, just not sure what to do now...,

This thread took on a darker element than I originally intended. Partly `cause I was drunk when I started it. If you were a previous smoker you have already been introduced to nearly every chemical mentioned here in significantly higher concentrations. My ensuing madness seems to have served as a reminder that vaping isn't as fuzzy-bunny safe as some advertise. Yet, it is very likely to be much safer than smoking. I seek information for helping to choose our juices for the least potential impact on our health in full knowledge that nothing is ever truly safe. We started dying before we were born.

Hi I am new here too , Great post!.
I am 9 days tobacco free after I bought a blu e-cig kit, and even though I have a lot of troubles with the batteries and consistency of the carts (burnt taste) , it is helping me to stay tobacco free. I have concerns over the e-liquid in the carts too , since it seems to contain citric-acid is this the same as citrus acid that you mention in the post?

Thanks

I typo a lot. Yes. Polypropylene Plastics should hold up well to citrus, however, Polyethylene does not. The bottles your juices come in should be low-density polypropylene. If your interested citrus flavors the challenge is to find a supplier that advertises what type of plastic they use. Or go with a glass or stainless steel tank.

 

[dayworks]

This thread took on a darker element than I originally intended. Partly `cause I was drunk when I started it.

3x7, you wouldn't happen to have your drinking schedule handy, would you? If not, but if possible, would you consider putting one together? If not possible, would you consider prefacing your post titles with something like, "Okay, I'm drunk again and I want to talk about __________!"

 

[someone3x7]

3x7, you wouldn't happen to have your drinking schedule handy, would you? If not, but if possible, would you consider putting one together? If not possible, would you consider prefacing your post titles with something like, "Okay, I'm drunk again and I want to talk about __________!"

Lol, honestly I don't drink often and usually not much. At the start I didn't realise I was drunk, when I did I didn't think I was that drunk. When I woke up lucid yet still a bit drunk and saw some of what I said... yeah. I won't be doing that again anytime soon.

 

[kiwivap]

Concerning Propylene Glycol it is true it has been used in medicine for near 50 years. But those medical inhalers and other products are not using heat to create the vapor. So we unfortunately cannot use them for comparison.

Well yes we can actually. The formaldehyde was at trace levels . You can read what Michael Siegel (quoted in the OP article) said here on his blog. He is saying it is an hypothesis that heating PG means trace amounts of formaldehyde result. He calls it "one hypothesis". He also says:

However, these results should help to reassure ex-smokers who have quit using electronic cigarettes that they have done themselves a great favor and reduced their health risks substantially, despite the advice from many anti-smoking organizations and researchers that they should return to cigarette smoking rather than use an "illegitimate" tool for smoking cessation.

From you:

Actually, I was hoping to get more info about Sodium Silicate. So far all I have found are loose statements stating, that while safe to ingest, it is harmful to inhale. I would like to find out why some have this opinion. It would be a mistake to assume food-safe is vape-safe.

The mistake is to jump to an assumption that they aren't safe without any real data.

What I proposed was making assumptions for the purpose of coming to a solution. What is referred to as a theory. When assumptions are made based on available facts it is not bad science. But I will agree it is not proof either.

It is not scientific to make assumptions. That's not how the scientific method works. You set about disproving the null hypothesis with data giving direct evidence. A theory is not coming to a solution based on assumptions. What you are doing is putting forward an untested hypothesis, at best.

You should thumb through some of the links in this thread. There are a couple studies now showing such concentrations in the vapor itself. Vaporizers burn fairly clean. By which I mean very little material is lost. If its in the liquid it will be in your lungs.

Vaporizers are quite wasteful actually, and that's been tested. Much of what is in the liquid stays in the carto or other device (e.g.atty wicks). That's why we have to clean them or change them. The amount of nicotine inhaled is much less than in the juice itself.

Plus there might be more since heating causes additional chemical reactions.

This is pure speculation. What chemical reactions? The compounds present in vapor were identified in the study you linked. I could say there might be lots of dangerous chemicals in ice-cream because of the freezing. Doesn't mean there are.

 

[dayworks]

Lol, honestly I don't drink often and usually not much. At the start I didn't realise I was drunk, when I did I didn't think I was that drunk. When I woke up lucid yet still a bit drunk and saw some of what I said... yeah. I won't be doing that again anytime soon.

Well, I would venture to guess most all of us has been there at one time or another and there's just no telling when such things might pop out. For my own part, I've shown my hindquarters so many times that anytime someone asks me to pose for a picture my first reflex is to turn around and pull my pants down. Probably the distance from here with me to there with you lies somewhere betwixt, "Damn, I can't believe I did that!" and, "Damn, I can't believe I did that again!"

 

[kiwivap]

The dyes are in the flavorings and some companies, like Lorann, list which dye (if any) is used. These flavorings were produced for use in food and so the color was included. There is a big difference between eating a dye or flavoring and inhaling it into our lungs. Less harm than smoking but probably not harmless.

Thanks for that. There's no evidence that they are harmful to vapers, except possibly to some-one who already has an allergy - in which case they are harmful for that person in anything. The German researchers used gas chromatography and mass spectrometry to identify compounds in vapor. No-one has identified any problem with food flavorings.

Here where I am the govt. took a hard line on certain synthetic substances that were not illegal, and which were becoming quite popular for people night clubbing. However... the govt. stated that they would test these substances as they needed scientific proof before they made a law change. Research and testing was carried out, and consequently some substances were re-classified as illegal. I've watched that with interest because they have not moved to make e-cigs illegal. They have a very hard line on smoking, but as there is a lack of data, not against ecigs. They don't like the idea of minors vaping, which is why we have to import our nic juice. There is research going on here too - the medical community are very interested in the fact the people can quit using ecigs.

 

[someone3x7]

Well yes we can actually. The formaldehyde was at trace levels . You can read what Michael Siegel (quoted in the OP article) said here on his blog. He is saying it is an hypothesis that heating PG means trace amounts of formaldehyde result. He calls it "one hypothesis".

Accepted.

The mistake is to jump to an assumption that they aren't safe without any real data.

Innocent until proven guilty is a bad way to approach health.

It is not scientific to make assumptions. That's not how the scientific method works. You set about disproving the null hypothesis with data giving direct evidence. A theory is not coming to a solution based on assumptions. What you are doing is putting forward an untested hypothesis, at best.

That wouldn't be the first time I've typed one when I meant the other.

Vaporizers are quite wasteful actually, and that's been tested. Much of what is in the liquid stays in the carto or other device (e.g.atty wicks). That's why we have to clean them or change them. The amount of nicotine inhaled is much less than in the juice itself.

I stand corrected. Found some additional info on this earlier today.

This is pure speculation. What chemical reactions? The compounds present in vapor were identified in the study you linked. I could say there might be lots of dangerous chemicals in ice-cream because of the freezing. Doesn't mean there are.

The studies I linked at the time I read them covered at most 1 juice each. So not all possible ingredients were tested. Ingredients can react with each other when you cook them. Like the way baking soda reacts with cream of tartar under heat creating co2 to raise your cake. Some of the chemicals in these flavorings I had no previous experience with. Which is why I asked for more knowledge or correction.
This part next is a general rant and not directed at you specifically.

This philosophy that everything is peachy keen till a study says otherwise is just ludicrous. Yes, we know for the most part vaping is safer. But not all is known yet and 'm not going to start huffing something as dangerous as diacetyl, which I might mention was not covered in those studies, assuming that trace amounts of it are safe. Will I stop vaping? No. Overall the studies done look good to me. They just aren't extensive enough for me to start mixing blindly.

 

[someone3x7]

Yeah, I purchased the metal tank option with my vivi nova for that reason (if it broke/reacted). I think it was a couple/three bucks.

As to the rest, my take (replying to an early post and not having read everything in this thread yet...still reading):

Many/most of the vendors have eliminated diacetyl due to concerns about it (justified or not, above/below "tolerable levels" or not) but it's always good to check if you are concerned. As to acrolein, if I even remember properly, it's a function of how much heat is present and comes most easily from the VG, not the PG, but can come from either.

All this stuff seems pretty dependent on the heat at the coil. There are studies, but the point about "e-juice can contain anything" is a valid one. We just haven't had tests on every flavor and PG/VG ratio on the market. I do think the vendors try to stick with what they believe are safe flavorings. We won't even know the full effects of this vaping thing for another 20 years...

I try to keep my DIY e-juices simple with regard to flavorings. If I was particularly worried, I'd probably vape unflavored e-juice. But the flavorings help keep me off cigs...I can't stand unflavored juice. Ack!. Too much VG is too "heavy" on my lungs. That counts too. IDK how people vape 100% VG juices, but I'm glad if it works for them. Doesn't for me.

So vape the cleanest stuff you can manage if you are worried about it. If you are really worried, vape unflavored and DIY it from the cleanest nic you can find.

Bottom line is that although there are positive studies they just haven't studied every combination of everything out there. I sincerely hope it ALL turns out OK and they we worried for nothing. Some studies indicate some harmful stuff at very low levels. This is harm reduction; nobody in their right mind has claimed it's 100% safe in all devices for all juices at all voltages that I know of.

Best to inhale air only. Unless of course you are in a major city with smog... then go look at those studies. What can ya do?

Best guesses.

Somehow I missed this post before I wrote my last. /agree

 

[Alguana]

Enjoyed this discussion. Thanks to all that participated and look forward to reading more.

 

[kiwivap]

Innocent until proven guilty is a bad way to approach health.

That's not what I said tho. You have been purporting to be scientific, but scientific is not just making assumptions and running off lists of chemicals. That's closer to paranoia. And we don't have to go around considering everything we ingest is "guilty" when there isn't proof it is. That's not a good way to approach health.

That wouldn't be the first time I've typed one when I meant the other.

Well you typed a prevailing pop notion of what a scientific theory is - which it isn't.

This part next is a general rant and not directed at you specifically.

This philosophy that everything is peachy keen till a study says otherwise is just ludicrous. Yes, we know for the most part vaping is safer.

Oh I'd say that's a direct response to what I've said. And actually, yes, we do need evidence before we start saying something is harmful. The philosophy that we can make any assumption we want with no direct evidence, and then call it scientific is the problem. By your logic here I can pronounce guilt on any substance, with no evidence.

But not all is known yet and 'm not going to start huffing something as dangerous as diacetyl, which I might mention was not covered in those studies, assuming that trace amounts of it are safe. Will I stop vaping? No. Overall the studies done look good to me. They just aren't extensive enough for me to start mixing blindly.

If you haven't already, you had better stop eating butter, margarine, popcorn, butter milk and butterscotch. You'll also need to not drink beer and some chardonnays. They all contain diacetyl. The problem with diacetyl has been industrial exposure. I can appreciate there's some concern with it - I don't use those kind of vape flavors - because they don't appeal to me. However, I would like to see a study comparing industrial concentration levels with everyday user consumption levels. Industrial exposure to any chemical is usually higher than the general public.

Two things:
1. Speculation and assumption are not the scientific method.
2. Yes, we do need evidence rather than starting a witch hunt over substances.

 

[someone3x7]

That's not what I said tho. You have been purporting to be scientific, but scientific is not just making assumptions and running off lists of chemicals. That's closer to paranoia. And we don't have to go around considering everything we ingest is "guilty" when there isn't proof it is. That's not a good way to approach health.

Everything I listed has been stated to cause some sort of health issue. Most of which I have read some study for. The assumptions I was making were about a method for trying to compare concentrations not about the ingredients themselves.

Oh I'd say that's a direct response to what I've said.

No, I have been getting that from a lot of people. Not just you.

And actually, yes, we do need evidence before we start saying something is harmful. The philosophy that we can make an assumption we want with no direct evidence, and then call it scientific is the problem. By your logic here I can pronounce guilt on any substance, with no evidence.

Goes back to my first response. I'm not assuming substances to be harmful without any evidence. There may be question as to how harmful. Also, there is still a lot of question as to how much were actually introducing ourselves to.

If you haven't already, you had better stop eating butter, margarine, popcorn, butter milk and butterscotch. You'll also need to not drink beer and some chardonnays. They all contain diacetyl. The problem with diacetyl has been industrial exposure. I can appreciate there's some concern with it - I don't use those kind of vape flavors - because they don't appeal to me. However, I would like to see a study comparing industrial concentration levels with everyday user consumption levels. Industrial exposure to any chemical is usually higher than the general public.

What I read about diacetyl was specifically about vapors and inhalation. Goes back to whats safe to ingest is not necessarily safe to inhale. Your lungs and your stomach do not operate the same. They have not yet identified the exact concentrations that will cause bronchiolitis obliterans. But they suspect that trace amounts are still dangerous to inhale.

 

[kiwivap]

Everything I listed has been stated to cause some sort of health issue. Most of which I have read some study for. The assumptions I was making were about a method for trying to compare concentrations not about the ingredients themselves.

Lots of things can cause health issues. With everyday use they are fine. You didn't say anything about concentration levels in the OP except a small quote from the article. I think your back peddling a bit now.

No, I have been getting that from a lot of people. Not just you.

Perhaps, like me, they want some proper evidence, and not just naming chemicals without data.

What I read about diacetyl was specifically about vapors and inhalation. Goes back to whats safe to ingest is not necessarily safe to inhale. Your lungs and your stomach do not operate the same. They have not yet identified the exact concentrations that will cause bronchiolitis obliterans. But they expect that trace amounts are still dangerous to inhale.

Whoever they are. Simple answer, don't vape those sort of flavors if you feel concerned. And don't eat butter. I'm quite aware our stomach and lungs are two different organs. I'm also aware products are released into the bloodstream by both - well The GI tract and the lungs to be more precise.

This could go on and on, but your not really saying anything new now.

I used to smoke 45-50 a day. My health is vastly improved since I quit and started vaping. Show me peer-reviewed studies pointing to evidenced problems and I will take note. But lists of chemicals and assumptions are not helpful for me.

 

[Kremppie]

3x7, you wouldn't happen to have your drinking schedule handy, would you? If not, but if possible, would you consider putting one together? If not possible, would you consider prefacing your post titles with something like, "Okay, I'm drunk again and I want to talk about __________!"

Haha...I was wondering if there are any studies on how safe alcohol is on the body...jk...made me chuckle!