High drain batteries, talk to me...

[forcedfuel50]

I do have another thought. I've read several times "safety" listed as a reason new high drain batteries are "better". However, the site that sells them even warns to be extremely careful with these high drain batteries to not short them out. Aren't, since we haven't tested these, being very premature to declare them "safe" or even "safer" then our Protected Ultrafires and what not? I mean, not that it hasn't happened or couldn't happen, but i have yet to read of one single failure on a protected, non stacked battery.
Now before you jump on me, yes, i've seen the You tube videos of people purposely causing them to fail.

Just pointing out, that since these new high drain batteries haven't been tested extensively in mods, nor am i aware of any failures of the protected non stacked lithiums, are we not pre-mature in jumping on the safety bandwagon, just because their chemistry is "safer"? These high drain batteries, for all we know, may be an extreme fire hazard or burn hazard when shorted due to their high output. One may short on the mod body and we have a glowing red hot mod!

 

[redrhino]

David that is what i have been saying all along......But not Just about Batts.... Batts LR attys,and what ever else they came out with new lately..... All this new stuf that they come out with, Does not Have a Track record as of Yet....Now there might be nothing wrong with it at all....But since it hasen't been on the market for too long,There's no way of Knowing.....I'm kind of a creature of habit if you will.....I stick with what works.......For instance the CR2 Batts that i originally purchased.....Never had a problem with them.....So i just went back to the same supplier and Purchased 12 more.... Just to be on the safe side.... Cause i know that the batts i got from that particular supplier work just fine.....Like i said Creature of habit.....I stick with what i know works.....Old saying that i'm sure you know ....If it's not broke don't fix it...... Just my opinion Dave.....

 

[Drozd]

Again I think that the safety of it comes down to the max drain rate of the battery...
combined with the safe chemistry of the battery...safe chemistry just vent a little gas if they go not flames...
now max drain rate... you figure that as the MAh rating on the battery times the C rating /1000 to get Amps it capable of discharging...
But you also divide 60 min by the C rating to get how long at max drain it would take to completely discharge in a continuous drain situation...
so those high drain 18650 are capable of discharging 16000mA (16A) in 6min before any damage to the battery takes place....(1600mAh at a 10C rating)
Compared to lets say the 3000mAh ultrafire ones.. (3000mAh at a 1.5C rating)... 4500mA (4.5A) in 40min...
let's look at a short due to a blown atty (resistance drops to 0 right?) so all of a sudden we're looking at a amp drawn of about 38A... that's only twice what the high drains are capable of versus 8 times what the ultrafires are...sure it's going to overstress either battery ...it's going to trip the overdischarge protection on the regular 18650 as well as probably the thermal protection (result dead battery...and possibly the PTC venting)... the high drains are probably going to get real hot (possibly enough to melt a spring (and thereby lose their connection) and completely discharge inside of 3 minutes, the safe chemistry will keep em from bursting into flames, though they might vent some gas...
What we do have to worry about is on protected batteries what the manufacturer considers protection....manufacturers are allowed to call a battery protected if it just has a thermal protection vent versus full protection (PTC and PCB) which is why some say protected versus IC protection or fully protcted and listing the protections on the cell (IC protection is both)....it's just really important to know the batteries you're using first off..
I trust the high drain just as much as regular AW batteries because of the safe chemistry coupled with their high drain capabilities..(remember in a stacked aplication we're already stressing our batteries double to triple above their max drain rate under normal use)...the ultrafires I trust less...manufacturing seems shifty (protected batteries that dont say protected, or say protected but don't list which protection, etc.)

 

[Cableguy]

You're really on the ball with battery explanation Drozd..thanks!

I bought the AW high drain 123s specifically for their safety when being stacked for HV apllications. I also got one of the high drain 18500s because I plan on trying out low res attys and was steered in that direction.

 

[VaporX]

Drozd well said

-The spring will melt away from the 20+amps going through it and most switches are less than 10amps before they fail, i dont think the battery will ever get hot enough itself to melt a spring a

so in short:
The safe amperage of these allow a short to be within range of its output until drained, during which the chemistry will prevent an explosion/fire etc

 

[forcedfuel50]

Good points, however, consider that if the short occurs from the battery casing to the mod body, there will be no safe fail like there would be if an atty shorts or if a switch fails. In those cases, the attie can blow, acting as a fuse, or, in mods with a sprung center post, the spring could collapse acting as a fuse. However, on a direct battery to body short (such as when the protective plastic wrapping on your battery were to tear or wear through, thus touching the body) there will be no fail safe and the mod could become extremely hot, perhaps even red hot.

I understand that the chemistry is safer and thus they may be safer in the exploding category, however, that doesn't necessarily mean they are safer overall. They could in fact prove 6 months down the road to be a fire hazard or burn hazard and then again, they may not. I'm just being cautious in not declaring them safe until they have been in the field of mods for an extended period of time. I am of the opinion, protected LI-Ion have proven themselves quite safe (as stated above, i have not heard of single failure in non stacked protected versions) Thus to say these new ones are safer begs the question.

 

[VaporX]

Mods are new but the batteries are not that new and have been tested in other industries.

A wrapper failure can happen on a normal battery also, which would BYPASS the protection circuit again leading to bad news but more violent from the unsafe chemisty.

If i had a choice of a hot mod i could drop(your theory of high drain failure)
or one that goes pop

ill take the hot one

(BOTH are reasonably safe if used properly, but in that case the high drain get the advantage of being more in spec for our uses)

 

[Drozd]

right like I already said they are overkill when it comes to single cell aplications where the high mAh rating of the batteries are enough to overcome the max drain rate to amp draw conflict...in that aplication I do with better protected Li-Ion...

But in stacked applications...where we're already horribly abusing Li-Ion batteries by far exceeding the max drain rate of the batteries they have their place...given that we don't always know the quality of the protection of the battery..and lets face it for some reason the trend for some reason is to cheap out on the batteries even in a high end mod..

I personally, if selecting battery preferences would only use the AW LiFePo4 3V CR123 size for 6V vaping... and the AW high drain IMR 3.7V CR123 size for 7.4V...for the 18650 size just about any will work...but I'd choose AW over ultrafire any day of the week given a choice..

Now if the Wolf eyes batteries actually came in a size that actually made any sense those would be worth looking at too..

Well until battery tech catches up with our purposes...some day we'll have access to some of the new and promising battery technologies (have you seen the reports of the new solid state, self charging batteries?) until then we gotta work with what we have..

 

[forcedfuel50]

But do consider the case of where you are not there to simply just drop it if it gets hot. What if it is in your purse, backpack, or left unattended and it shorts out and gets hot enough to cause a fire? Not flaming (pun intended), just pointing out other potential hazards beyond explosions. For all i know, even the high drain 18650 doesn't have enough power to make the mod hot enough to start something on fire, however, until it's been in the field of mods several months, i'm just not willing to declare it safe.

 

[VaporX]

i see your concern, but feel its misplaced

The same or worse will happen with a normal cell in that case

a wrapper failure =short beyond control of protection circuits leaving the battery alone to do what it will

But again with proper and responsible use both are acceptable

 

[forcedfuel50]

But the high drains can have 4-5 times the output, thus allowing them to heat much, much hotter, here is one of the warnings from the lighthound website:

Caution:
- Do not over-discharge/overcharge
- Recharge empty batteries ( resting voltage ~3.6V ) as soon as possible. Leaving LiIon batteries in discharged state will incur irreversible damage ( capacity / cycle loss )
- Do not short circuit ( will release tremendous current )
- Do not dispose of in fire.

Personally, for me, i just want to be cautious before declaring them safe

 

[VaporX]

hot yes, not explode or vent with fire as a normal bat would in the same case

(im looking up some math for you, i dont think it will heat your mod much at all before its empty)


EDIT: also i wouldn't declare any lithium battery safe, just best choice.

(if you bring LR atties in to the pic even more reason for high drain)

 

[Drozd]

well then we have to take into consideration how a battery fails step by step..
it over discharges...causing thermal runaway (gets too hot)...at this point in a protected battery the PTC (pressure and thremal protection) should vent gas and break the positive to negative connection (if the battery is set up for it)...and the PCB (if the battery has one) should trip and shut it down about the same time... if it doesn't with Li-Ion you get a ruptured cell and a venting of flames due to the oxydizer in that chemistry...both LiFePo4 and the LiMN take out this last step as the safe chemistry doesn't have an oxidizer...so no flames...
So Li-ion have the PTC and the PCB to keep it from getting to the venting flames stage (and in regular useage, sometimes the PCB will catch it before the PTC is tripped)..the other chemistries dont use them because well they solve that by the chemistries just not venting flames...in either one it's a case of venting some gas and then they're done...differences come in at how quickly we abuse them and push them to the stage that they would vent gas. Regular Li-Ion will vent before either other chemistry..
Just how quickly on a 18650 size will completely depend on the mAh rating of the battery in conjunction with the C rating of the battery..

 

[crashtestjeep]

I say build the mods, send all 3 prototypes to me, Ill test all batts on them and report back

Really tho-how about using a spring or button throw that will be adjustable for the consumer to choose battery choice, therefore versatile enough where you can use any 18650 batt and it fits?

personally, the first sentence would be ur best bet IMO, but......

 

[JaYBoNeS]

"High drain batteries, talk to me..."

Silly vendor, batteries don't talk!

Seriously though, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, I will be purchasing one of your mods in the future, just a matter of deciding which one....

 

[forcedfuel50]

I say build the mods, send all 3 prototypes to me, Ill test all batts on them and report back

Really tho-how about using a spring or button throw that will be adjustable for the consumer to choose battery choice, therefore versatile enough where you can use any 18650 batt and it fits?

personally, the first sentence would be ur best bet IMO, but......

Yes, at least two of them will take any 18650 battery

 

[KonaNeil]

The ones I ordered are from the same place HERE

They seem to perform a lot better than the Blue Ultrafire or Tenergy's

Could just be that they're new (2 weeks old). We'll see over time.

The text in the link characterizes the AW 14500 as simply a Lithium battery. How do you tell that it is a different chemistry and "high drain"?

BTW: I've been reading in other forums about the $40 Pila charger. Some users claim it shuts off @ 4.15V rather than 4.20 to 4.25 like cheaper chargers. Also, that it doesn't give a trickle charge once it reaches its goal. If true, this would allow batteries to last longer and add another positive safety factor.

Anyone here use one of these?

 

[Drozd]

The text in the link characterizes the AW 14500 as simply a Lithium battery. How do you tell that it is a different chemistry and "high drain"?

BTW: I've been reading in other forums about the $40 Pila charger. Some users claim it shuts off @ 4.15V rather than 4.20 to 4.25 like cheaper chargers. Also, that it doesn't give a trickle charge once it reaches its goal. If true, this would allow batteries to last longer and add another positive safety factor.

Anyone here use one of these?

I've heard the same about the pila charger...the website says it trickle charges but users report it doesn't and that it shuts off..
I just know that it's like a $40 charger and that Pila sizes their batteries wierd so I'm not sure what I'd need spacer wise or what sizes will fit in it..bottom line, I thought about it but I don't have $40 to throw down to experiment with a charger...the ol lady would kill me..

 

[grimmer255]

i know there is nothing wrong with my Precise. But these crappy 10440 batteries are just not kicking out the juice that is needed for my 510. I keep going back to my S6 because the 10440 batteries are pathetic....

We need to find a better 10440 battery for the Precise. I have two brand new trustfire protected 600 mah 10440 batteries and they suck. the reason I know its the batteries because I put them in some other devices to make sure and its the same amount of vapor.... pathetic.

I'm thinking of getting those LR 510 atties to see how they go. But I cant get any now because Nhalor is completely sold out... unless there is another vender I can go to.

Hey David do you have any suggestions as to any other 10440 batteries we can use?

By the way the Precise is so sexy. Thats why I'm so ticked off because this beauty cant be vaped like it needs to be ....

 

[forcedfuel50]

Have you tried any of the blue labeled ones sold here in the US, i have a couple of those and they worked good when my mom was testing out here Precise, but we had some ultrafires too that worked fine, maybe you just have a bad batch? She was surprised at the vapor and throat hit with them. She got about a 1.5-2 hours vaping out of them.