What poisonous oxide exudes or off-gases from Kanthal? At what temp?
Reference please.
Good luck.
Reference please.
Good luck.
How many times can you reuse the same coil?
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Yeah the papers I found don't have much to say about Kanthal. It gathers aluminum oxide which is benign (and desirable). Just the generic "metal exposure" which even Farsalinos says is unlikely to be much elevated by dry burning.
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What poisonous oxide exudes or off-gases from Kanthal? At what temp?
Reference please.
Good luck.
When I wrote my post I didn't think anyone thought poisonous anything in relation to older coils.
It was my understanding that what was at issue was metals in general and some thinking there was a higher likelihood of inhaling metal particles from older coils, versus new.
I didn't assume "poison" in that concern...just an idea that it may not be as good in the long term...
I can't really remember now where the concern originated..
Is there any noticeable difference between the FT mesh you use vs the OFRF/Wotofo? It looks to be of identical hole count of the Wotofo, but the resistance of the claimed 0.13 ohm vs Wotofo 0.18 ohm leads me to believe it maybe a thicker strip.
I mostly use the OFRF – sans any damage I may accidentally inflict (I’ve dropped a couple), I have found they last quite some time…few months at least. A local retailer had them on holiday sale and I cleaned out their inventory so have enough to last me quite some time.
Here's my reply concerning dry burning oxidation which I hope is informative to those of you considering working Kanthal…#1659Attack of the (Kayfun Mini V3) Clones!.
Dr. Farsalinos criticisms of dry burning were we'll intended given aspects of Ni or Ti but not accurately applicable to Kanthal in the manner that we should appropriately use it. Torching Kanthal is not advantageous or necessary; however, its haphazard use raises some possibilities for concern.
Properly oxidizing Kanthal wire in the most uniform orientation possible can dramatically improve on vapor production and coil durability. Glad to help with this anytime.
Good luck.
Dr. Farsalinos criticisms of dry burning were we'll intended given aspects of Ni or Ti but not accurately applicable to Kanthal in the manner that we should appropriately use it. Torching Kanthal is not advantageous or necessary; however, its haphazard use raises some possibilities for concern.
Properly oxidizing Kanthal wire in the most uniform orientation possible can dramatically improve on vapor production and coil durability. Glad to help with this anytime.
Good luck.
You raise some good and appropriate points concerning wire GOM. But Dr. Farsalinos statement, "Dry-burning the coils means heating them to temperatures well above 700oC…" is incorrect. It's not necessary to routinely achieve temp's exceeding Kanthal's red/orange thermal color boundary for any critical duration while coil cleaning. Especially if water is used at lower temps to help steam off accumulation. Bottom line — no one's going to be vaping there and certainly not with a wetted wick if the coil's originally good geometry and finish remain intact.
So I have to disagree strongly with quite a few of the suppositions made in the two above links. They're not consistent with the correct manner in which we use Kanthal.
The easiest way I believe to introduce undesirable elements into our vape is over-heating the char that can present on our coils. The best way to avoid or mitigate this is good design and construction as well as effective, routine and benign dry burn cleaning.
GOM thx for bringing up the opportunity to discuss Kanthal's distinctions.
Good luck.
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Read the dry burning article. The only issue he senses to have with dry burning kanthal was that it caused wear, and the article is old enough that stainless isn’t talked about at all.
from what I can tell they are the exact same... but from use... the original mesh (donno what it was) and the ofrf that comes with the profile, I only got to reuse once or twice before the mesh started to break/snap, I mean I'm rough on my coils, they only last maybe 2 or 3 days before they need cleaned, I usually try to push it out to a week before cleaning and well they look like something died on them
but these from ft clean up nicely.... I dry burn then dunk into water and repeat.... sometimes I need to gently use a sponge to brush off some debris but still haven't had any damage to the mesh, might need to re adjust the curve a bit but otherwise fine and still read at .15
Hmmm, not exactly mebe. This was I believe the response to earlier criticisms and still somewhat unequivocal…as therein the categorical no >700C inferred argument, appropriating the very definition of a "dry burn". The general consensus was that the good Dr. was apologetic. Ok, fine. Like the discussion on hardware "advice" elsewhere…if you haven't tested it, don't speak to it. A great part of our objections to the "science" being used against vaping and the abundance of loose assumptions is their inexact or irrelevant correlation to what we're doing. This was such a case as pertains to Kanthal, the most prominently used wire (and indirectly by others, the microcoil). No need to dry burn >700C.
If memory serves me, I made the case in the Spring of 2014 on super_X_drifter's original microcoil thread that torching was unnecessary and actually undesirable for the prep of Kanthal's wire surface. Overnight it seemed vaping had an Emperor has no clothes moment and stopped torching. Well heck then, there's no way to "form" a microcoil without substantial heat being applied through adequate voltage and pulsing, is there? And that's what a great many folks proceeded to do, and have been.
There should be the simple means to safely form contact coils that can be adequately oxidized to assure geometry and durable performance at reasonable power (temp) levels.
That's the conclusion I came to in 2012 which gave me the hope that quitting was possible. Even for someone then as hopelessly "addicted" as me.
Good luck.
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from what I can tell they are the exact same... but from use... the original mesh (donno what it was) and the ofrf that comes with the profile, I only got to reuse once or twice before the mesh started to break/snap, I mean I'm rough on my coils, they only last maybe 2 or 3 days before they need cleaned, I usually try to push it out to a week before cleaning and well they look like something died on them
but these from ft clean up nicely.... I dry burn then dunk into water and repeat.... sometimes I need to gently use a sponge to brush off some debris but still haven't had any damage to the mesh, might need to re adjust the curve a bit but otherwise fine and still read at .15
Shadav’s mesh massacre!!
The OFRF and Wotofo are of the same thickness, but different hole count which results in a difference of mass (OFRF has higher mass) and resistance (OFRF is lower).
Out of these 2 I have not noticed any significant difference in longevity. With usual maintenance both last me at least a couple of months. Grant it this not something that I am recording at any detail. Maintenance is low wattage (~10 watts) pulses not letting the strip glow. Letting the strip glow for a prolonged period will lead to breakage. Once all the nasties are gone it’s a rinse under hot water then onto the wicking station!
Found this on the FT forums who claims the XFKM mesh (the one you are using) is thicker than the Wotofo as I suspected earlier.
Picture of mesh Slight diffrence between Watofo: FastTech Forums
What color is 700c on kanthal?Hmmm, not exactly mebe. This was I believe the response to earlier criticisms and still somewhat unequivocal…as therein the categorical no >700C inferred argument, appropriating the very definition of a "dry burn". The general consensus was that the good Dr. was apologetic. Ok, fine. Like the discussion on hardware "advice" elsewhere…if you haven't tested it, don't speak to it. A great part of our objections to the "science" being used against vaping and the abundance of loose assumptions is their inexact or irrelevant correlation to what we're doing. This was such a case as pertains to Kanthal, the most prominently used wire (and indirectly by others, the microcoil). No need to dry burn >700C.
If memory serves me, I made the case in the Spring of 2014 on super_X_drifter's original microcoil thread that torching was unnecessary and actually undesirable for the prep of Kanthal's wire surface. Overnight it seemed vaping had an Emperor has no clothes moment and stopped torching. Well heck then, there's no way to "form" a microcoil without substantial heat being applied through adequate voltage and pulsing, is there? And that's what a great many folks proceeded to do, and have been.
There should be the simple means to safely form contact coils that can be adequately oxidized to assure geometry and durable performance at reasonable power (temp) levels.
That's the conclusion I came to in 2012 which gave me the hope that quitting was possible. Even for someone then as hopelessly "addicted" as me.
Good luck.
When pulsing the Wotofo mesh, they turn plaid in colour. Same results can be viewed in Spaceballs where the air friction of Ludicrous Speed, even in the vacuum of space, turns everything plaid!
Joking aside, 700°C would be a medium red. But don’t see how one can use colour as any kind of accurate way of predicting temperature for ambient light can mask certain shades.
Joking aside, 700°C would be a medium red. But don’t see how one can use colour as any kind of accurate way of predicting temperature for ambient light can mask certain shades.
Both Alien Traveller and I posted links to Sandvik's Kanthal color temp chart here #308 and here #314 on The end of microcoils? thread where many of these concerns were discussed. Unfortunately it seems the page was relocated and I can't find it at the moment.
This may be helpful as a ref: KNOW TEMPERATURE WHEN METAL GLOWS RED
"For as long as we are not exciding temperatures of orange color on both charts (“yours” or “mine”) we are in a safe region for kanthal."
As I noted in my above, Kanthal's color temp spectrum is somewhat cooler. In my post I demonstrate a stable (out to 6 sec, salmon dry burn for ref).
I'll try to return here if I can snag the link somewhere. Hope this helps.
Good luck.
This is true and and I've often mentioned this recommending pulsing t.m.c.'s in dimmed lights, to expose irregularities in both wire and wind. When you're looking at that bright yellow-white zone you're def not going to see much (until you audit the video).
Good luck.
I did find one chart which wasn’t very optimistic. It claims all metals have about the same color temperatures.Both Alien Traveller and I posted links to Sandvik's Kanthal color temp chart here #308 and here #314 on The end of microcoils? thread where many of these concerns were discussed. Unfortunately it seems the page was relocated and I can't find it at the moment.
This may be helpful as a ref: KNOW TEMPERATURE WHEN METAL GLOWS RED
"For as long as we are not exciding temperatures of orange color on both charts (“yours” or “mine”) we are in a safe region for kanthal."
As I noted in my above, Kanthal's color temp spectrum is somewhat cooler. In my post I demonstrate a stable (out to 6 sec, salmon dry burn for ref).
I'll try to return here if I can snag the link somewhere. Hope this helps.
Good luck.
So I did another search and found carbon burns, which is what you are doing when you dry burn, at 1000c. Logically then, If you can’t heat a coil to 1000c safely you can’t dry burn it safely. This doesn’t seem to be totally true as I normally get usable dry burning around salmon color which is according to the chart, about 850c.
That color temperature chart also implies that other kanthal element devices, from toasters to hair dryers to room heaters are also unsafe.
Either safe dryburning is impossible, or the process isn’t as damaging to the human body as claimed. They can’t both be true.
How much of what material and how likely is is to form particulate becomes really really important here.
Not meaningful this chart without a source or description. I'm comfortable that you're not reaching 850C at the red-orange boundary with Kanthal. To my comparisons with live wire, charts and Kanthal numbers "salmon" is a safe temp. Also consider that this is the point at which some artifacts of Kanthal are presumed to potentially off-gas according to some studies. For the short period that were firing to create contacts, it's hardly significant. For the even briefer intervals that we're chain-firing to clean makes me wonder why we're even having this discussion.
Point…we seldom ever have to even see color on a coil to clear most residue. Small low turn, low Ø coils will occasionally accrue some hardened stubborn deposits. I wouldn't hesitate to hit those at the orange or red for the split second it might take to loosen them. The proposition that 1000C's needed to clear "carbon" is obviously wrong to anyone that's worked with a real vaping coil.
So you're right. Dry burning is not impossible at low temperatures, as we have both seen. I don't believe that 700C is cut in stone as a top end limit for dry burning either. Just a reasonable threshold as we can have adequate results well below it.
Good luck.
The source was a google search for metal heat by color. According to the article basically all metals no matter what they are appear more or less the same at more or less the same temperature. There were apparently a few exceptions but not many. As for the other stuff it all becomes weird. How much of what still seems to be the issue for me. As always not nearly enough trustable science has been done.Not meaningful this chart without a source or description. I'm comfortable that you're not reaching 850C at the red-orange boundary with Kanthal. To my comparisons with live wire, charts and Kanthal numbers "salmon" is a safe temp. Also consider that this is the point at which some artifacts of Kanthal are presumed to potentially off-gas according to some studies. For the short period that were firing to create contacts, it's hardly significant. For the even briefer intervals that we're chain-firing to clean makes me wonder why we're even having this discussion.
Point…we seldom ever have to even see color on a coil to clear most residue. Small low turn, low Ø coils will occasionally accrue some hardened stubborn deposits. I wouldn't hesitate to hit those at the orange or red for the split second it might take to loosen them. The proposition that 1000C's needed to clear "carbon" is obviously wrong to anyone that's worked with a real vaping coil.
So you're right. Dry burning is not impossible at low temperatures, as we have both seen. I don't believe that 700C is cut in stone as a top end limit for dry burning either. Just a reasonable threshold as we can have adequate results well below it.
Good luck.
My understanding is the colour is due to Electromagnetic Radiation whose visible colour waves is specific to temperature. Those metals that seem to be of an exception to the rule are metals that have a much lower melting point and are being compared incorrectly. Example: Aluminum melts at 600°C, therefore solid aluminum cannot glow yellow such as a piece of solid steel. But molten aluminum can.
Interesting. Mercury is another I can think of off hand as vaporized mercury seems to be able to glow blue/purple while emitting large amounts of ultra violet. Titanium may also be another. I don’t actually know though.
Thx ur post PID, Kanthal as an alloy is a different breed. Relatively low voltage sequential firing is all that's necessary to begin observable oxidation deposition as I've discussed elsewhere. A very useful mechanism to achieve optimal performance and stability for this wire with strain providing the necessary forming wind coherence.
Hope this link/.pdf is helpful, Pg 94 for a bar chart of wire color temp's…
Resistance heating alloys for electric home appliances
I believe the factor for Kantha's specific color temp is 1.05.
The powered wire temperatures of importance to the OP for purposes of maintenance are (or can be) appreciably less than for wire prep and so shouldn't be of concern to the average user.
Me personally, I think it wise to avoid speculating about what may be toxic or poisonous. At some point the figure of concern for Kanthal was somewhere over 850C. Reports or references from some testing done here on ECF I think brought this down to 700C or so. However, as I see this figure cited here and there, never the underlying info or source thread. It would be helpful.
Thanks all.
Good luck.
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