I Must State This

[Thrasher]

Very true.

But I realize that I, as a utilitarian vaper, view these devices differently than others. And that is fine. We are all different and like different things.

For me, they are essentially just tubes and boxes. They are a means to help people quit smoking, and in so doing hopefully save people's lives.

Whenever I evaluate a new device for purchase (mod, rba, etc) looks are (for me) at the bottom of my list of selling points. Even though I have to admit I am starting appreciate craftsmanship and beauty more and more, it is still not what really sells me.

I always ask myself this question, "well what does this device bring to the table (aside from asthetics)"?

1. What is new, unique, and innovative about the device?
2. What are the features/functions of the device?
3. Is it versatile?
4. Is it solidly constructed? Is it durable? Does it have good conductivity?
5. Last for me is looks or "sex appeal". Is the finish shiny/polished or satin/brushed?
I think brass is sexy, but I am finding I like the two toned looked even more.
As an analogy, for me as a man, the naked female form is intriguing but it leaves nothing to the imagination (ie full brass mod).
A mod with brass accents, well now, this is even more intriguing. Everything is not thrust in your face all at once. A woman can seduce a man, and drive him mad with desire, by selectively revealing just what she wishes to reveal. In fact, she needn't reveal a thing, she can do so via the look in her eye, her conversation, her body language, etc. Such is the power of the mind and the imagination.

So for me markings, logos, designs, and serial numbers are not very important. But for some who buy clones, they may indeed want these.

Kind of odd that the most important feature for judging a device is left off your list. -performance. how does the device perform, does it live up to the hype and is it better then what I own.

much though is given to the design of these high end devices with regards to performance. looks are just the icing on the cake.
I dont care if people buy clones but I do find it disturbing and rather tasteless the clone makers will state "exactly like the nemesis with logos and all".

whats so hard abut making it appear different, it could be a nemi in every single way with a slight deviation in the exterior design. clones arent just being marketed to people who cant afford them, they are also being marketed to the vanity aspect of not only do I have a nice mod, I too now own a nemi and can feel like I fit in with the crowd that will pay the original price.

what wrong with these arguments isnt - whats wrong with clones, but why should anyone even pay for the original. why should we actually support the people who spend countless hours on a milling machine when we can support slave labor in a foreign country and help others profit off someones hard work. not all of them but some of these mods and attys go through countless hours of testing and revisions before we get the final product.

look at the kayfun, it is pretty new to a lot of people, yet it is over 2 years old and in its 4th or 5th design revision right now. yet people will happily buy some cheap copy saving a whopping 15 bucks. personally I feel better giving the actual designer that few extra bucks so he keeps bringing superior products to maket for me and others.

and yes several of the arguments here are quite valid about those who make the original popular are the ones showing china which ones to clone.

If you cant afford a real one so be it get a copy. but to actually say its really ok they steal someone elses hard work is wrong. do some research, spend time at places like nuvapor and vaporwall, where many modders hide from the clone machines. their products are very well received and performance is above average, but if you want them you sign up or add your name to a list. you will never see these products cloned as they arent all over the market in the face of the clone makers to copy, and sadly we have to suffer with limited runs so they can feel secure knowing they wont suddenly see 5 cheap versions, logo and all on fasttech.

It is one thing to make a comparable product (which doesnt bother me in the least), it is something else to completely steal someones hard work and even their logos. (which I find very insulting)

 

[riseabovethestorm]

Arnie, I completely agree.

And Butters, your statement about markings is also spot on.

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[Arnie H]

Very intelligent points Thrasher. And your right, I forgot about performance. For me, though, I am not really concerned with minuscule differences in voltage drop and other such things. If the thing produces vapor, and satisfies me, I give it a thumbs up.

I am not saying stealing is OK, but don't attack your fellow vapers. Their purchases do not necessarily constitute tacit approval of these practices. Hey, I want a plain nememis clone with nothing on it, but where is one? How much choice do I have?

Do people not see, that the bashing of clones (and worse the bashing of those who purchase them), only feeds the "evil clone empire" (I think Vapor Joe calls it that). As each day passes, more and more people are revolting against what they perceive as haughtiness or pretension of the high end mod fans. As a result this empire grows larger and stronger, day by day There are now dozens of US vendors selling clones (one does not even have to wait for fasttech).

So the result is a chasm, a split, a division within the vaping community. The fasttech/clone fan boys vs the high end mod fan boys. Hey, I want to support the creators of these devices, but I simply cannot intellectually/ or economically justify it. As a poor person, I must side with those of my socio-economic class. Even, if I wasn't poor, I'd still LEAN in that direction.

 

[Thrasher]

I am am fairly new to vaping and I went to a local shop because what I had was not cutting it. Explained my problem, looked at the solution and bought it. The book it came with states it is "eGo Variable Volt/Watt APV". Later I am told it is a VAMO. It LOOKS like one for sure. First version, V2? IDK. The only markings on it are China quality marks (I think). One is the CE and the other is a check mark with ROHS beneath it, turns out neither mean much.. Knockoff? Sounds like it. Or is VAMO a knockoff? IDK. Knowing what I know now I would still buy it.

I do know that I want something that will fill my needs/desires. Seems to me I could spend a huge amount of time trying to ensure my purchase is an original. Which would also seriously limit my options. I am an end user who does not much care where it came from, only if it suits me.

Generally speaking I am a live and let live kind of guy. I try very hard not to fault someone for their choice and I generally ignore those who fault me for my choices.

Like another poster said here, all of these are a battery, circuits, and liquid. Where ever the first one came from is truly the ONLY original.

actually if you got the real ego apv that is the vamo/bamboo and the first to market, the vamo is a very strange animal as it is almost comparable to open source software, the actual specs were released but not the product, many factories make them and yet they are all vamo's this is one of the rare cases where they arent cloned, they are just different takes on the same idea.

dont hold me too it but i believe the design was released into the wild by smoktech (maybe it was Youd?). and was more to prove a decent apv could be made for less then 50 bucks. it was approx this time last year health cabin offered the very first ones for around 45 (when i got one) and up until that point you were lucky to find a china apv for under 100. many arguments are made about how many china mods you could buy for the price of a provari etc, but many new vapors dont seem to remember when they were ALL the same price as a provari. LOL heck at that time a ZMAX was a 130 or more.

 

[Uncle Willie]

The thinking behind this is similar to prostitution stings. Let's arrest the johns (customers) and the market will dry up. There is a certain roundabout logic to it but as in the case of drugs, arresting the addicts is really not gonna solve the issue. All I am saying is, don't belittle or look down upon those who purchase clones, aim your crosshairs where they should be. It is obvious that people are being made to feel a certain way, and this is something which must stop! I, as a vaper, have no direct control over what these replica makers copy. I have personally witnessed the banning of the sale/trade/or even talk of clones/replicas in several places (which I will not name). This is not something I am imagining. This hostility is real, tangible, and palpable. But I feel it is misdirected and all it does is alienate other vapers. Some people may think this approach is gonna work, I am sorry, but I just don't think so.

The link at the end of a chain is as important as the link at the front of the chain .. if one breaks, the chain is still broken ..

Vendors that sell the "real thing" have every right to expect ECF discussions to be taken down if they deal with knock offs of a legit product ..

 

[Criticalmass]

Honestly I have heard that the recent clones are just as good as the real thing. You know what that tells me? The people producing the original items are marking up their products 300% - 500%.

When you buy Ralph Lauren you're paying for the name, not the product. If people want to pay for an unknown name outside of the vaping world, so be it. The smart ones will buy the quality clones and be happy.

I can think of a few other instances where products have been cloned and the clone ends up becoming more popular than the original because it is, simply, better. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. And these producers of clones are still making a profit. So what does that tell you?

Do what you want with your money. Just don't bash others when they do the same. If these "original" creators want to stop cloning, then perhaps they should offer to do more custom work like laser engraving / painting / etc and lower their prices. This industry is largely run by the Chinese and their entire economy is based off stealing. They steel everyone's designs from phones, cars, electronics, probably right down to food recipes. lol. They have no pride when it comes to this stuff. If the can steal it, they will.

Let's face it. Most of these mods are either Juice Boxes, Battery Boxes, or plumbing pipes. It's not that different than what you can get at your local hardware store. I have only seen a very few "artists" actually doing real quality work.

 

[bluecat]

I got an extra 150 bucks in my pocket. Clone works well.

 

[bluecat]

For me, they are essentially just tubes and boxes. They are a means to help people quit smoking, and in so doing hopefully save people's lives.

Actually they are an alternative means of smoking. People are successful at using them to quit smoking but then they are addicted to the alternative, vaping.

If a mod maker doesn't get the required patents anything is fair game. Sooner or later it will become a toaster. Hwo many different people make toasters?

As long as it is not marketed as real, I have no problem with clones/relicas.

 

[Jayvaps]

The link at the end of a chain is as important as the link at the front of the chain .. if one breaks, the chain is still broken ..

Vendors that sell the "real thing" have every right to expect ECF discussions to be taken down if they deal with knock offs of a legit product ..

You best not go into the DIY section then, and look at the 'clone' threads for juice. lol.

The idea that the mod makers are losing money due to cloners is humorous. It would be like saying that rolex and Gucci are suffering because of fakes. They are not. In fact, it is free advertising for them. People wonder, well how good is the original, if it inspired a fake?

There will always be people that cant or wont buy a designer product. And that is what these high end mech mods are...a designer product.

Me? I bought a nemy clone recently. Still waiting for it to get to my door. Why? I have never tried a mech before, and have no idea if I am going to like it, so there was no way in hell I was gonna drop 2 bills to find out I dont like mechs. But $30? Sure, why not. I am not someone chasing clouds or a sub ohm vapor. I just want something comfortable in my hands that doesnt look like ....

Now, if I really like mechs, than I very well may buy the real thing. Or a roller. Or a Poldiac. I have been looking at REAL mechs, but again, I aint dropping the coin on a real one until I have at least tried a mech out.

So in my case, the clones could actually INCREASE business to the 'real' mod makers. That is, if the ones I want are in stock.

 

[Sucker_dad]

Honestly I have heard that the recent clones are just as good as the real thing. You know what that tells me? The people producing the original items are marking up their products 300% - 500%.

When you buy Ralph Lauren you're paying for the name, not the product.

That's not exactly true. WHen you buy the real thing you pay for the item and the research and development that went into making that product. Clones don't have that overhead to work around since they have had the work done for them.

 

[Thrasher]

Honestly I have heard that the recent clones are just as good as the real thing. You know what that tells me? The people producing the original items are marking up their products 300% - 500%.

Im not stupid enough to say the mod makers arent making money off their sales but if you can honestly believe the cost is the same for two guys in Greece running a small shop compares to a slave wage 3 block long factory in china running 25 different product lines 24 hours a day you need to step back and examine your perceptions about manufacturing.

the only thing china has going for it right now is they didnt actually spend the time to design it, and their profit margin and wages are kept artificially low by the govt subsidizing the inflation rate.
Look into devices like the spheriod and how many months of revisions and all the testing that went into this little atty. china doesnt clone those yet but when they do everyone will claim it didnt cost them anything to make the original either. and I cal BS, costs are substantially higher for a 3 man crew to buy a state of the art CNC and pay the power and buy metal stock to just keep throwing into the waste bin every revision. while finding ways to support their families and produce a couple 100 attys.
at the same time all china has to do is change over that assembly line for a couple hours of runs before they run out a few 1000 more chi you's.

Im not telling people not to buy clones but i am disturbed that people think the costs for people not in china to make something is in the same ballpark

as for the recent clones are just as good? hmm somehow you must be missing or skipping all the posts about failing pins and self firing mods and buttons not working and pins needing to be sanded and buttons modded and attys leaking and on and on. at least when you buy the originals every single one of them work. not a % of the total.

this is just like all the provari BS where everyone comes down on the owners, when people start threads like this one soliciting feedback people give it, then it is usually someone who doesnt agree with a non clone fan that starts throwing stones. just for answering a post we are suddenly the bad people coming down on the clone users. If you really dont want to know what people think or how they feel about the situation quit asking for opinions or posting on an open forum .......sheesh man, what do you think is going to happen.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I think it's wrong when they use the exact markings.

I have seen this sentiment several times and I can't say that I understand it. A clone is a clone, birth marks included! Next time you're in a big city with street vendors, go up and tell them that selling fake jewelry, clothing and electronics is okay as long as they don't use brand names and logos. I don't see how that makes any sense. We live in a capitalist society which means--rightly or wrongly, legally or illegally--someone is going to capitalize on something or someone else. Someone say free-market? Or is it honorable-market? As long as you know when you're in a flea market!

If someone is swayed one way or another simply due to a logo or brand name, that person has bigger issues. If an object in question functions as it is supposed to, irrespective of markings, so be it; save your money and do what you do. If someone is buying a fake Louis Vuitton suitcase for $20, obviously they're buying it because they want it to LOOK like the real deal--calling it Lewis Batton with big bubble letters ain't gonna work. Now, if that same person is expecting Louis Vuitton quality, then they deserve to be ripped off. If they don't know the difference in the respective qualities, then they won't know they're being ripped off.

Maybe it's a separate issue if someone is selling a "clone" and saying it's the real deal, i.e., the original. But even still, remember, the onus is on the consumer--protect your wallet like your money depended on it.

 

[Criticalmass]

Nothing says the two guys in Greece can't have it produced in China. Not a THING. Almost every single company out there has at least some items sourced from a 3rd world country.

They can be more competitive. In most cases what they are making is NOT art. With a very few exceptions like Gepetto's Mods. Paying for ART is a different beast altogether because you are not only paying for the product, you are paying for the artist's talent as well.

There is no talent involved in creating a tube mod. All it takes is basic electronics and electrical knowledge along with some machine-shop skills. With the right tools you could have someone in a high school metal shop class make you the same or better.

If these producers want their work to not be cloned, then they should make it more unique.

 

[HDVaper]

I was reading this thread and remembered that I was gonna order some King clones from Fasttech. Thanks for the "reminder". If I hadn't seen this I probably would have forgotten.

 

[Virtual Life]

A bit off topic, I saw this in Turkey strolling through what could be described as an outdoor mall. Love the honesty!

 

[Uncle Willie]

The idea that the mod makers are losing money due to cloners is humorous. It would be like saying that rolex and Gucci are suffering because of fakes. They are not. In fact, it is free advertising for them. People wonder, well how good is the original, if it inspired a fake?

Any knockoff sold is the loss of a sale to the guy that developed the real thing .. there is simply no other way to look at it .. thinking otherwise is humorous .. it's like saying a movie studio does not lose money to pirating in all it's forms ..

As well, you will find, if you care to actually do any research, that name brand Corporations in many, many cases, aggressively go after the knockoffs of their products .. the two you named do ..

What people fail to think about is : if you essentially went thru the process of developing a product, then the marketing of that product, then the discovery that your product was a success and that you might actually be able to make a living with it .. ask yourself, would you be happy when suddenly knockoffs started appearing at half or less what you sold for .. ?? Place shoe firmly on other foot, then, rationally answer that question ..

 

[Criticalmass]

Any knockoff sold is the loss of a sale to the guy that developed the real thing .. there is simply no other way to look at it .. thinking otherwise is humorous .. it's like saying a movie studio does not lose money to pirating in all it's forms ..

As well, you will find, if you care to actually do any research, that name brand Corporations in many, many cases, aggressively go after the knockoffs of their products .. the two you named do ..

What people fail to think about is : if you essentially went thru the process of developing a product, then the marketing of that product, then the discovery that your product was a success and that you might actually be able to make a living with it .. ask yourself, would you be happy when suddenly knockoffs started appearing at half or less what you sold for .. ?? Place shoe firmly on other foot, then, rationally answer that question ..

News Flash. this is a hazard any time you run a business. It's called competition. Even if your business is service oriented, there will be others who undercut your pricing to offer the same service (such as family owned businesses who have 30 people living in a single house to cut down on expenses so they can charge less for their work and steal away customers). The question then becomes, how much better is your service than theirs, is it worth the price difference? Is what you are offering something that the customer might value over the cost-savings that the competitor is offering? If not, what can you do to offer that extra value that will make them give up the money they might save?

It is not the customer's problem. The customer buys what the best value is for their money on whatever it is they want. I, as a customer will spend my money on what I want and do it guilt free. I mean seriously, you want me to feel guilty or sad for these companies? I ran my own business for over a decade. If they can't compete then they are doing something wrong. It really is just that simple.

Make no mistake, it doesn't matter how many times a business owner calls it's customers "family", that's just "good business". In the end, you pay for a product. there is an exchange of cash for items. There is no family involved. You won't be calling them up for the holidays and having them over for dinner and letting them sleep in your guest bed and drive your car. it is a BUSINESS. So, do I feel bad for them that their products are being cloned? Hell no. My first question is: What makes your product so much better than the clone if I buy it. Where is my 10x the value for 10x the price? Oh, it's made in the USA? good for you! Now, where is my 10x value for 10x the price?

 

[OhmTheWatt]

I hate that the good Chinese clones are all copying branding.

Just make your version, throw your logo on there and call it a day. Most of the things being cloned and purchased are unoriginal designs anyway.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[Uncle Willie]

News Flash. this is a hazard any time you run a business. It's called competition. Even if your business is service oriented, there will be others who undercut your pricing to offer the same service. The question then becomes, how much better is your service than theirs, is it worth the price difference? Is what you are offering something that the customer might value over the cost-savings that the competitor is offering? If not, what can you do to offer that extra value that will make them give up the money they might save?

It is not the customer's problem. The customer buys what the best value is for their money on whatever it is they want. I, as a customer will spend my money on what I want and do it guilt free. I mean seriously, you want me to feel guilty or sad for these companies? I ran my own business for over a decade. If they can't compete then they are doing something wrong. It really is just that simple.

Make no mistake, it doesn't matter how many times a business owner calls it's customers "family", that's just "good business". In the end, you pay for a product. there is an exchange of cash for items. There is no family involved. You won't be calling them up for the holidays and having them over for dinner and letting them sleep in your guest bed and drive your car. it is a BUSINESS. So, do I feel bad for them that their products are being cloned? Hell no. My first question is: What makes your product so much better than the clone if I buy it. Where is my 10x the value for 10x the price? Oh, it's made in the USA? good for you! Now, where is my 10x value for 10x the price?

what your post has to do with my question "What people fail to think about is : if you essentially went thru the process of developing a product, then the marketing of that product, then the discovery that your product was a success and that you might actually be able to make a living with it .. ask yourself, would you be happy when suddenly knockoffs started appearing at half or less what you sold for .. ?? Place shoe firmly on other foot, then, rationally answer that question .."

I fail to see .. if you have read this thread, then you'll find I went on record a while back stating folks can spend their money on anything they like .. I am not judging, IOW .. I have owned and still own a business, for 35 years in fact .. we're talking about knockoff products here, in case you were wondering ..

 

[Jayvaps]

Any knockoff sold is the loss of a sale to the guy that developed the real thing .. there is simply no other way to look at it .. thinking otherwise is humorous .. it's like saying a movie studio does not lose money to pirating in all it's forms ..

As well, you will find, if you care to actually do any research, that name brand Corporations in many, many cases, aggressively go after the knockoffs of their products .. the two you named do ..

What people fail to think about is : if you essentially went thru the process of developing a product, then the marketing of that product, then the discovery that your product was a success and that you might actually be able to make a living with it .. ask yourself, would you be happy when suddenly knockoffs started appearing at half or less what you sold for .. ?? Place shoe firmly on other foot, then, rationally answer that question ..

It is not a loss of a sale if the person was never going to buy the 'original' product to begin with.

Heck, some of these mod makers make such small quantities, that it would be impossible for everyone to buy one(or they purposefully hold back inventory to keep the price high). But that is not even the point. There are many many people that would not dump $200 or more on a designer mech mod. Just like there are many many people that would not dump $5000 on a rolex watch.

So there is no loss of sale.

And sure, the makers of some large corporations go after knock-offs. But someone that bought a $50 rolex in Battery Park is not going to buy a $5000 watch. It aint going to happen.

And there is no comparison to movie pirating. Because in most cases, a person WOULD see the non pirated movie.

In any case, it all boils down to competition. If the clones become soooo good that there is no reason to buy the 'real thing' then the manufacturer of the real thing needs to step up its game.

Think evolv and their kick vs the sigelei and smoktech kicks. the two 'clones' spurred the creation of the kick 2.