Is Cloning Ethical?

[Kataphraktos]

imeo holds patents, and his mods and attys are copied more than any other product. Even the most successful e-cig makers are too small to be able to afford to go after the patent violators.

This is the world we live in. Our legal system makes it so that large investment firms can pool funds, set up a shell company, buy some patents and then patent troll legitimate firms into oblivion, while real innovators without the financial muscle have to bend over and take it because they cannot afford the legal battle.

As for the argument that those buying the clones would never shell out the money for the original: I don't remember this stopping the NYPD from absolutely gutting the Chinatown fake handbag trade. I've witnessed a street vendor getting shut down by the NYPD, they were merciless. Why? Because it involved names like "Chanel" and "Louis Vuitton". And Apple has always been ruthless in going after patent violations.

The lesson is clear: if you have the money, the system is built to protect you, and the system will help you in defending your rights, but if you are a little guy, you are on your own.

Funny aside: here is how twisted our species is, and how truly lacking our brains are. A popular "reviewer" (if you could call his videos "reviews", but I digress) recently announced he would no longer review clones, supposedly for ethical reasons. In the same video announcing this, he referred to imeo (the maker of GG) as... well, find and watch the video, I doubt the moderators want me repeating that term here. imeo, regardless of your personal opinion of the guy, has fought the cloners more virulently than any other maker of hardware in this industry. So this guy, who was selling out the original makers for years, now thinks his little "mea culpa" cleans the slate, and he is free to cast aspersions against the same makers whom, until recently, he was damaging by reviewing the copies of their products.

These are the guys setting the standards for this industry. Result? No freaking standards.

Legally, if the creator does not apply for and receive a design or process patent, there is no "intellectual property". So the question of "theft" becomes moot.

But Buzzlove above is quite right to point out that what is "legal" is not necessarily "ethical". However, what if I have no idea what the "original" of something is, or who "originated" it, or if it is available for purchase? And if this information is not available? Or is inaccurate? Then there is no ethical problem buying a battery in a tube with a connector and a little heating coil, on top of it...with whatever little decorations and colours happen to strike my fancy.

 

[Kataphraktos]

imeo has stated his position on this. I'm pretty sure he doesn't care if products look similar. He cares that they get his permission to use his patents, that they don't use his product names or pretend to be his products, and that they are made properly so as not to pose a danger to the user.

And, FWIW, he gives permission to modders to use his ideas all the time.

Is the smoktech natural a clone of the GG? Thats what I don't get. I don't understand why people call something a clone when it doesn't look anything like the original. It looks inspired by the GG but its not a GG. I love GG mods, I really do. When the smoktech natural came out, I really liked the look of it because I had been wanting a GG, or at least a bottom firing pinky button tube mod for a long time. The natural came out and I found myself saying "hm, well, its not a direct clone of the GG... I can't feel bad buying this" but, still, I went to the GG forum here, and I asked everyone there, including imeo himself, if they thought the smoktech natural was a clone of the GG. Everyone there including Imeo, said something along the lines of Yes. Yes, it looks like the GG. Yes, it is a copy of the GG. Yes, they copied my mod. So I thought about all their responses, but they didn't deter my own opinion. Which was NO, its not a copy of a GG. I honestly think its just a little annoying when someone says a mod is a copy when its obviously not meant to be a direct copy. The smoktech natural was meant to be a well made, cheap, stainless steel tube mod with a pinky button. Not a GG clone.

The KTS... Is the KTS a GG clone? Is it? The abbreviation is for "Kamry Telescopic Storm" which, yknow, "Telescopic Storm" Hmmmm... GGTS.. GreatGreekTelescopicStorm. So the name is a direct rip of the GG mod. Does the KTS look like a GG? Its a tube mod. It looks like the GG if you step on your glasses and take 500 steps backwards. Is the KTS a GG clone? Would I buy a KTS? I wouldn't buy a KTS. The KTS looked cheaply made to me from the moment I saw it. I also wouldn't buy it because I don't like the design of the top cap. It doesn't look like the GGs top cap, it looks like an original top cap, but I think its an ugly top cap. Who originally called it the KTS and who profited by calling it the KTS? Did Kamry put it out as the KTS or did 1 lone vendor call it the KTS and everyone else followed? Does that make it a clone? If vendors are ordering mods off of Alibabba and instantly renaming them after famous mods to create interest because they almost look similar, is that cloning? Or who cares if its cloning or not... Is that ethical for a vendor to name a mod after a mod it resembles in design but isn't an exact copy of? Is borrowing from mods that have come out ethical? Is the Bolt a clone of the silver bullet because its a tube mod with a big button a quarter down the tube? Are there too many questions in this post to get a solid answer from anyone, due to the fact that no one has the interest, the time, or the attention span to read this post and answer qualitatively?

 

[Kataphraktos]

BTW, I believe there should be affordable, made-in-China mods and attys. I would toss myself off a cliff before denying any smoker the means with which to quit the analogs.

You will get what you pay for - generally, most of these products don't work as well, and don't last long.

If these cloners did the right thing, and paid a royalty to use the legally-enforceable patents, that clone you just bought would have cost $35 instead of $30.

Is five bucks too much to ask to remain within the bounds of some sort of ethical standards, and reward those who innovated this industry into existence?

 

[HDVaper]

Ethical, schmethical. Do you know of any Chinese ecig manufacturers that are? Sheesh!!!! We continue to buy their stuff so why would they be? Additionally...who cares. "Ethics" is a thing of the past. Start with our government and just work your way down.

 

[SissySpike]

Since most of the cloning is coming from China what we consider as deceptive is considered good business there

Do the Chinese Lie? That Depends…

Out in my neck of the woods, it is not uncommon to hear a businessperson from a Western country, following a disappointing episode with a Chinese supplier, say something like: “They’re all a bunch of liars!” Of course, they’re not all bad. Part of the problem is very different definitions of what constitutes ethical and honest behavior between the Chinese and the Western world (Note: I’d include the Japanese in the group of people who don’t understand Chinese “lying”).

In short, for most Chinese people, lying is not really lying. What we in the West would consider to be a bald-faced lie, a person in greater China might think of as a courtesy, a convenience, or a smart tactic, none of which are immoral. In fact, lying to achieve some business or social aim, and getting away with it, is considered to be a sign of intelligence and social skill among many Chinese.

 

[raqball]

Ethics is a thing of the past.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank god I don't think like that and if I ever do, then please just stick me in the grave...

 

[SissySpike]

Funny aside: here is how twisted our species is, and how truly lacking our brains are. A popular "reviewer" (if you could call his videos "reviews", but I digress) recently announced he would no longer review clones, supposedly for ethical reasons. In the same video announcing this, he referred to imeo (the maker of GG) as... well, find and watch the video, I doubt the moderators want me repeating that term here. imeo, regardless of your personal opinion of the guy, has fought the cloners more virulently than any other maker of hardware in this industry. So this guy, who was selling out the original makers for years, now thinks his little "mea culpa" cleans the slate, and he is free to cast aspersions against the same makers whom, until recently, he was damaging by reviewing the copies of their products.

These are the guys setting the standards for this industry. Result? No freaking standards.

If your talking about the guy you think I am he has a personal beef with Imeo. So in a way he is standing on his standards to the upmost. He will be the first to say GG products are good but refuses to use them because of actions buy Imeo He felt were bogus cant fault the guy for that.

 

[Fishtec]

I don't think so taking some ones idea that you are not intelligent or creative enough to think up yourself to make a profit from is wrong and undercutting someone else's work with a cheap copy is out of order in my opinion many people will buy the clone first and judge wether to buy the original from that if the clone sucks even if the original is fantastic chances are that person won't buy the original based on there experience with the clone

 

[HDVaper]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank god I don't think like that and if I ever do, then please just stick me in the grave...

I didn't mean imply that I/we didn't have ethics because I assure that I do and always have!!! I was referring to most everything that, we as citizens, have to deal with on a daily basis. Once again...starting with our elected officials. That's what gripes me so much...most folks have ethics but we have to live by certain ridiculous rules made by people who have absolutely NONE.

 

[Myk]

Like I previously stated.... Sense of entitlement...

YAWN!

2005 designs???

I have an ORIGINAL Roller.. I have 3ea ORIGINAL Divers... I have an ORIGINAL Provari... I have 2ea ORIGINAL VPX Tanks, I have 2ea ORIGINAL SnP Tanks... I have an ORIGINAL Kayfun and I have an ORIGINAL Super T ELA on order..

Not a SINGLE ripoff (read: Clone) in my collection.. I buy direct from the ORIGINAL creator!

2005 design???? LOL

"ORIGINAL Roller"? It's a mech. Is it really so different than any other battery tube to make it an "original" design?
Every VV you have that is not the first VV is a clone unless they paid to use that idea. As far as I know I don't see that original VV listed. NOT originals.
Every ecig you own that is not a Ruyan is a clone (and they have been known to press patent suits).
Everything you has is someone taking someone else's idea and going with it and I doubt if any of them have paid for the rights.
You simply want to draw the line where you aren't crossing.

In reality the line is drawn by someone with enough money to lose that they can pay to have the line drawn where they want it drawn. If they're making clones (like nearly 100% of ecig makers are) they make the line in the favor of being exact copies. If they're Ruyan they want the line drawn to be anything that works like an ecig.
But at present there is no sense in drawing the line, one major reason is that these originate in China and their line is much different than the western world's.

I can spend days addressing the job issues and how our misleaders have and continue to sell us out.

I dont think anybody is saying its the crime of the century or the great travesty of our time, but just because its not earth shattering technology dose it make it any less wrong?



But then youed have to get another job to support your clone self , cause your clone self is supporting you!;-)

My point wasn't about crime of the century or earth shattering. It was that it's not worth worrying about. If it was the manufacturers would be going after the clones. Instead we have manufacturers claiming real items are clones when someone doesn't follow their pricing policy (like Kamry claiming FT's Kamry Empire clones are clones of Kamry's Empire clone).

 

[raqball]

"ORIGINAL Roller"? It's a mech. Is it really so different than any other battery tube to make it an "original" design?
Every VV you have that is not the first VV is a clone unless they paid to use that idea. As far as I know I don't see that original VV listed. NOT originals.
Every ecig you own that is not a Ruyan is a clone (and they have been known to press patent suits).
Everything you has is someone taking someone else's idea and going with it and I doubt if any of them have paid for the rights.
You simply want to draw the line where you aren't crossing.

Not much to say because I am too busy laughing at this....

Thanks for the laugh though..

 

[Kataphraktos]

If your talking about the guy you think I am he has a personal beef with Imeo. So in a way he is standing on his standards to the upmost. He will be the first to say GG products are good but refuses to use them because of actions buy Imeo He felt were bogus cant fault the guy for that.

I figured there was a personal issue there. My problem is, he comes out and states that imeo's rights are not worth defending, unlike other original mod creators. I don't care what personal grudge they have, ethics cannot be applied selectively, based on personal baises. If it was an ethical stand he was making, he would have said something like "Even the rights of a p*#&$ h&#*!&# like the guy who makes GG should be protected".

 

[Myk]

Not much to say because I am too busy laughing at this....

The lengths people will go to justify their purchases is really very comical..

The lengths people will go to to discredit someone without actually saying anything relating to the topic.

I don't have to justify my purchases to you or anyone else.
You're the one who must think you have to justify a purchase by claiming originals when they used someone else's idea.

Battery, wire and resistance wire. There's your mech and dripper. Everything else is a copy. That's the facts. It's not like these are complex inventions so it all boils down to the original idea which is heating PG, water, flavoring and nicotine. And that is Ruyan's patent from 2003, released in 2005. Get over it.

 

[raqball]

The lengths people will go to to discredit someone without actually saying anything relating to the topic.

I don't have to justify my purchases to you or anyone else.
You're the one who must think you have to justify a purchase by claiming originals when they used someone else's idea.

Battery, wire and resistance wire. There's your mech and dripper. Everything else is a copy. That's the facts. It's not like these are complex inventions so it all boils down to the original idea which is heating PG, water, flavoring and nicotine. And that is Ruyan's patent from 2003, released in 2005. Get over it.

Hahahaha... Dig, dig, dig... You must realize that you are making yourself look like a whack-a-doodle right?

I sure hope so..

At any rate... Support thieves if you want, I can care less.. Buy knock off junk with your money if you want, I don't care..

Enjoy that "sense of entitlement" attitude and have a great day because I for one won't respond to your gibberish any longer..

What you spew is not even close to the topic at hand.. I guess, by your logic, every Dodge is a clone since it was not the 1st car made... LOLOLOL

 

[retired1]

**cough** Keep it civil please.

 

[SissySpike]

The lengths people will go to to discredit someone without actually saying anything relating to the topic.

I don't have to justify my purchases to you or anyone else.
You're the one who must think you have to justify a purchase by claiming originals when they used someone else's idea.

Battery, wire and resistance wire. There's your mech and dripper. Everything else is a copy. That's the facts. It's not like these are complex inventions so it all boils down to the original idea which is heating PG, water, flavoring and nicotine. And that is Ruyan's patent from 2003, released in 2005. Get over it.

I dont get your reasoning improving something and making it better is how products improve and evolve its always been so

Ruyan is copied from other products non ecig if you really want to get silly with saying whats a copy.

The words you wrote are all written in books dose that make you a plagiarizer? No not any more that it make Provari a copier

A roller has a original switch design so no they did not copy anyone. No one used that complicated of a switch in a mod until they did.

If you think what China is to Chi You clone as Provari is to Ruyan then we will have to just disagree cause I just dont see it!

also for some one who says this is a waist of time and space you sure have made alot of posts here

I figured there was a personal issue there. My problem is, he comes out and states that imeo's rights are not worth defending, unlike other original mod creators. I don't care what personal grudge they have, ethics cannot be applied selectively, based on personal baises. If it was an ethical stand he was making, he would have said something like "Even the rights of a p*#&$ h&#*!&# like the guy who makes GG should be protected".

You have a point you dont have to like some one to not want them to be stole from. good point.

 

[raqball]

I dont get your reasoning improving something and making it better is how products improve and evolve its always been so

Ruyan is copied from other products non ecig if you really want to get silly with saying whats a copy.

The words you wrote are all written in books dose that make you a plagiarizer? No not any more that it make Provari a copier

A roller has a original switch design so no they did not copy anyone. No one used that complicated of a switch in a mod until they did.

If you think what China is to Chi You clone as Provari is to Ruyan then we will have to just disagree cause I just dont see it!

also for some one who says this is a waist of time and space you sure have made alot of posts here

Some people just like to create drama. At any cost!

I quoted the OP here to get back on topic.

how the majority of vapers here feel about dealing with vendors who manufacture and sell direct copies of modders' creations. Not thinking of similarly designed buttons or criticizing low cost,bulk equipment but those who directly steal and resell

 

[SissySpike]

Ruyan copied its technology from:
The earliest electronic cigarette can be traced to Herbert A. Gilbert,[19] who in 1963 patented a device described as "a smokeless non-tobacco cigarette" that involved "replacing burning tobacco and paper with heated, moist, flavored air." This device heated the nicotine solution and produced steam. In 1967, Gilbert was approached by several companies interested in manufacturing it, but it was never commercialized and disappeared from the public record after 1967.[20][21][22][23][24][25]

So in fact an American invented and patented ecigs so stick that in your Chinese Ruyan and vape it;-)

 

[DigitalDoom]

(I haven't read this entire thread so please forgive me if what I write is redundant or somewhat off-topic)

If "cloning" PV products is something that's considered acceptable business practice in China, who am I to argue that? How arrogant it would be for me to dictate standards for ethical business practice to a society and culture so very different from my own.

The only time I would find it "unethical" is when a company not only produces a duplicate product but also puts the original product/company name on it and tries to sell it as the original.

Hell, there's no real ethics in industry anyway (or anything else for that matter). There are only laws to govern acceptable practices, most of which are usually ignored. Everyone copies, clones and plagiarizes everyone else...whether it's industry, literature, art, music or whatever, there is nothing new under the sun!

 

[Myk]

Hahahaha... Dig, dig, dig... You must realize that you are making yourself look like a whack-a-doodle right?

I sure hope so..

At any rate... Support thieves if you want, I can care less.. Buy knock off junk with your money if you want, I don't care..

Enjoy that "sense of entitlement" attitude and have a great day because I for one won't respond to your gibberish any longer..

What you spew is not even close to the topic at hand.. I guess, by your logic, every Dodge is a clone since it was not the 1st car made... LOLOLOL

Yeah, I'm the one who's the whack-a-doodle yet you're the one making personal attacks to avoid addressing anything of substance.
Care to list off any clones I have since you're trying to attack me by claiming I'm a big clone buyer?

It's your logic that every car is a clone because they're all not all the ORIGINAL. If you want to claim because something is changed it makes them not clones then the clones you're whining about aren't clones.
The only actual clone I have, that was made to look like the original and sold as the original (even though it's an obvious clone and isn't hidden that it's not an original) is made of different materials and therefore must not be a clone, right? You seem to want the line drawn where it suits you and moved when it suits you.
There is simply not enough technological room be be crying clone as much as some of you do.

There are only so many musical notes and progressions. Things will be similar.

Claiming fake Gucci hand bags is a farce, ecigs aren't there yet. But yes, that is wrong and I have always preached against fakes. But fakes are not the same thing as a clone.