Is The Antichist Here Yet?

[LisaLisa]

ah, "the Devil made me do it".....I don't buy it......people are responsible for their own actions.....

Of course people are responsible for their own actions, but they are being influenced by satan and his demons. There is so much satanic stuff going on in the world right now, so much demonic activity, there is no way satan isn't responsible for this stuff.

If satan and his demons aren't bound right not, when who/what are the demons that are haunting people's houses, tormenting them, possessing people, and showing up a satanic rituals and seances and rituals? There is just way too much evidence that supports them being out there, with a very high level of activity too.

There is just no possible way that I"m going to believe that satan isn't very active right now, and very much wandering the earth causing all kinds of pain, suffering, and chaos. No possible way.

I very recently had an "experience" and nobody can tell me that it wasn't real. No way, no how. I was up in asheville, NC looking for property to buy and hooked up with a realtor up there. Older lady, strange, but very friendly and we got along great. When I arrived in NC, I went to her office and she had all kinds of crystals and native american things all over the place. No problem, no big deal, some of it was even very beautiful.

Her husband showed me around town that day, and while we were in the car the subject of reincarnation, meditation and past life regression came up, (something I used to be very into) and he told me he doesn't believe it, but his wife does. We laughed.

After the day was over, I went back to my hotel and watched tv and went to bed. That night I had a hideous demonic dream where I was attacked and tortured. I woke up in a panic and sweating, I still remember the dream, and I never remember my dreams. It was really bad, and really real!

The next morning, we met back at the realtor's office for a new day of property hunting, and she was telling me about her dog. His name was "satan" and it rolled off her tongue like nothing at all. I was shocked. I just got such a bad feeling about everything there, even the town of asheville, I just cut it short and went home. Couldnt explain why I had a bad feeling about the town because its' one of the top 10 places to live in the USA and the beauty there is breathtaking!!!!! But, I just felt the need to get out of there and couldn't explain why.

When I got back home to florida, I started researching asheville, and I found out that it's a huge hub of satanic underground activity. The founder of the new age movement, alice baily, even has a training school there in asheville! The vanderbuilt family own most of the area, (illuminati) and that was all I needed to know.

Never went back, and found a place in Georgia and settled in. The only other time in my life where I had demonic dreams was when I was growing up in PA, we lived in an old house over 100 years old. We believe my father was demon possessed, and I was constantly under attack there too as a child.

Demons and satan are real, and to underestimate their power and influence in the world today, is dangerous in my opinion.

 

[CartHeadMod]

You want to believe Man is inherently evil with no help from the Devil and my position is I don't really care either way, but unfortunately it's important to God what we believe.. so, based on scripture.. especially the book of Revelation which deals with the 'latter days' .. which is now forward until Christ's return.. I believe the Devil is still active because of scripture. the Book of Revelation talks about events that have 'yet' to happen, the Devil & Hell reserved for him are mentioned in it.. What did 'this' statement have to do with what I posted earlier about evil? .if you think your actions are excused because Satan hasn't been bound yet and you're telling your friends they will get a second chance during some millennium you're doing them no favors Did I claim to preach another Gospel other than the one the Apostles preached? I think not, I preach Christ Crucified and salvation comes by no other. I agree that no one's actions will be 'excused' except those who chose to call upon CHRIST and were saved and cleansed by the POWER of His BLOOD that was shed on that cross for the Sins of the World! That's WHAT I tell people and Satan gets no credit whatsoever. I share Christ when I witness, not the Devil (whose under my feet anyway!)
I still beg to differ, Adam & Eve would have remained SINLESS in the Garden of EDEN if they hadn't succumbed to the wiles of the Serpent, the Devil (Lucifer). The Devil's toast anyways.. (lol)

to what purpose do you consider a "millennium".....does it matter to the believers who will have been raptured away?........is it for some benefit of unbelievers who have been condemned by their choice not to believe?......why would there be a "millennium" that served no purpose in God's plan of redemption?

 

[chimney55]

to what purpose do you consider a "millennium".....does it matter to the believers who will have been raptured away?........is it for some benefit of unbelievers who have been condemned by their choice not to believe?......why would there be a "millennium" that served no purpose in God's plan of redemption?

It's not going to matter to the people who were raptured nor will it matter to those who are already condemned. However, since we believe that people will be born during the millennium, it will matter to those people. People have been using others for scapegoats since the fall in the garden and many will use Satan as an excuse. The millennium will show that in almost idyllic conditions without the temptations of Satan, people born with a sin nature WILL sin. The majority of those born during that period will rebel but others will be saved. Those saved will go into eternity with the rest of us. Why does God want some born during the millennial period to be saved? Only He knows. Why did He want any single one of us to be saved?

 

[eHuman]

I never denied that I was "pre-trib"

.
You missed my point. I mean that your viewpoints as stated forces you into a pre-trib stance, from there everything that does not currently fit needs to be cleverly explained away so that it will fit. (These explanations are wishful and extra biblical in most cases, being "reasoned" from outside of what scripture presents).

It has been going on for a while, that's why this topic is debated so heavily. I started out pre-trib. It is what I was taught, It is what I wanted to believe, it made sense (God rescues us in the nick of time) = win win. Even then it still posed problems like:

-Where do the people having kids in the millennium come from, it's not in the Bible.
-How come we are taught to look and long for the return of Christ but then told "oh the rapture isn't His return, that comes 7 years later". We are not taught to long for the rapture, but His return.
- If God raptures all of His own for a wedding and feast, and then 7 years later comes back for all of those saved during the tribulation, they missed the wedding.
-Is there a second rapture at the end of tribulation or do 100% of tribulation saints have to die of persecution to get to Heaven? One view paints an extra resurrection, and the other that you must be martyred to get to Heaven. Do you think you are more worthy to escape hardship than they?
- They were saved during the tribulation because they refused Christ prior to it? I refused Christ my whole life and could not come to saving faith until God deemed it was time for me to do so. It was God's timing for me, not my timing for God. What does that say about the tribulation saints?
- And there are more things that don't line up.

It wasn't until I studied and read for myself (without trying to make it support what I already believed) that the notion of a pre tribulation rapture (all of the issues aside) just isn't painted in scripture. Not when the whole of the text is considered. Funny thing is, when I stopped trying to fit everything into where I assumed it MUST go, and just let it be what it was, all the issues went away. They are no longer un-fittable and weakly explained away issues.

When we get rid of the preconceived ideas of how scripture must be (man and Satan has done a good job causing devision and confusion and for a reason), and look at what scripture itself speaks then some of these confusions become pretty clear.

So, you believe that the church is the "bride of Christ" is the church? Why would Christ (or the Father) beat up the bride before the wedding?

Who said anything about God beating up the bride of Christ? We are destined for tribulation (look that up and see how many times we are told that), but we are not destined for wrath of God. The tribulation is not the wrath of God, read for yourself WHEN and what God's wrath is. Tribulation is just a testing of faith. You can stand when life is easy and proclaim God. Only true faith can stand in that time and proclaim, I don't understand all of this hardship, but God is able to deliver me and even if He doesn't, I will worship Him alone!

Rev 3:10 10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. You read that as "take out the church"?
"keep" Greek = tereo means "to guard from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon;
and thus differing from the Greek word (phulasso), which is to prevent escaping through isolation or removing to a secure place;

John 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

God uses Christian's true faith to be seen by others and draws them to Him. What better display of faith will God model during those dark and terrible times, than his own children staring death in the face and proclaiming, "I don't want to die but I cannot deny my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!" What kind of testimony do you think that will display to those who God is calling out of darkness? The peace that surpasses all understanding in the face of what otherwise looks hopeless, here stands one full of hope and joy?!?!

It helps to understand the marriage customs at the time that this was written. First of all....... In your scenario, there's a beat up bride without friends meeting the groom.

No, It helps to understand what scripture actually is saying, not what I want it to say. It was hard for me to let go of the pre-trib view. I fought to prove it right so I wouldn't have to let it go and was convinced and convicted the more and more that it is not what scripture teaches.

My hope is that God will keep me in the hour of trial. That mirrors every Christian's daily life. Jesus said,
Luke 18:7-8
7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

He will not find faith (those calling out to Him) on earth when He returns if there are none of His children here when He comes. Read that passage in context, Those who are still here, who are calling out to Him are the ones who have faith. Those who are not truly Christians will deny Him because of the hardship, those that are His cry out to Him in time of hardship. There is a great shaking coming upon the world and everything that can be shaken will be. Only that which is firmly planted on the rock cannot be shaken.

Those final days will be a time to separate the sheep from the goats, those who claim to be from those who actually are.

 

[eHuman]

It's not going to matter to the people who were raptured nor will it matter to those who are already condemned. However, since we believe that people will be born during the millennium, it will matter to those people. People have been using others for scapegoats since the fall in the garden and many will use Satan as an excuse. The millennium will show that in almost idyllic conditions without the temptations of Satan, people born with a sin nature WILL sin. The majority of those born during that period will rebel but others will be saved. Those saved will go into eternity with the rest of us. Why does God want some born during the millennial period to be saved? Only He knows. Why did He want any single one of us to be saved?

What are your references for that explanation? You say alot in that paragraph, how much of it is found in scripture?

 

[eHuman]

to what purpose do you consider a "millennium".....does it matter to the believers who will have been raptured away?........is it for some benefit of unbelievers who have been condemned by their choice not to believe?......why would there be a "millennium" that served no purpose in God's plan of redemption?

Why don't you research and come back with what the Bible says about it?

why would there be a "millennium" that served no purpose in God's plan of redemption?

Are you questioning that there will be one or questioning it's purpose? The Bible claims that there will be one so if your issue is that then you take issue with God. If you want to understand the millenium look to scripture. It doesn't go into an abundance of detail as to "why", but that shouldn't cause one to question "if".

 

[blondeambition3]

Of course people are responsible for their own actions, but they are being influenced by satan and his demons. There is so much satanic stuff going on in the world right now, so much demonic activity, there is no way satan isn't responsible for this stuff.

If satan and his demons aren't bound right not, when who/what are the demons that are haunting people's houses, tormenting them, possessing people, and showing up a satanic rituals and seances and rituals? There is just way too much evidence that supports them being out there, with a very high level of activity too.

There is just no possible way that I"m going to believe that satan isn't very active right now, and very much wandering the earth causing all kinds of pain, suffering, and chaos. No possible way.

I very recently had an "experience" and nobody can tell me that it wasn't real. No way, no how. I was up in asheville, NC looking for property to buy and hooked up with a realtor up there. Older lady, strange, but very friendly and we got along great. When I arrived in NC, I went to her office and she had all kinds of crystals and native american things all over the place. No problem, no big deal, some of it was even very beautiful.

Her husband showed me around town that day, and while we were in the car the subject of reincarnation, meditation and past life regression came up, (something I used to be very into) and he told me he doesn't believe it, but his wife does. We laughed.

After the day was over, I went back to my hotel and watched tv and went to bed. That night I had a hideous demonic dream where I was attacked and tortured. I woke up in a panic and sweating, I still remember the dream, and I never remember my dreams. It was really bad, and really real!

The next morning, we met back at the realtor's office for a new day of property hunting, and she was telling me about her dog. His name was "satan" and it rolled off her tongue like nothing at all. I was shocked. I just got such a bad feeling about everything there, even the town of asheville, I just cut it short and went home. Couldnt explain why I had a bad feeling about the town because its' one of the top 10 places to live in the USA and the beauty there is breathtaking!!!!! But, I just felt the need to get out of there and couldn't explain why.

When I got back home to florida, I started researching asheville, and I found out that it's a huge hub of satanic underground activity. The founder of the new age movement, alice baily, even has a training school there in asheville! The vanderbuilt family own most of the area, (illuminati) and that was all I needed to know.

Never went back, and found a place in Georgia and settled in. The only other time in my life where I had demonic dreams was when I was growing up in PA, we lived in an old house over 100 years old. We believe my father was demon possessed, and I was constantly under attack there too as a child.

Demons and satan are real, and to underestimate their power and influence in the world today, is dangerous in my opinion.

Glory to God! Hallelujah! This is powerful and this is truth!!!!!

 

[blondeambition3]

.
You missed my point. I mean that your viewpoints as stated forces you into a pre-trib stance, from there everything that does not currently fit needs to be cleverly explained away so that it will fit. (These explanations are wishful and extra biblical in most cases, being "reasoned" from outside of what scripture presents).

It has been going on for a while, that's why this topic is debated so heavily. I started out pre-trib. It is what I was taught, It is what I wanted to believe, it made sense (God rescues us in the nick of time) = win win. Even then it still posed problems like:

-Where do the people having kids in the millennium come from, it's not in the Bible.
-How come we are taught to look and long for the return of Christ but then told "oh the rapture isn't His return, that comes 7 years later". We are not taught to long for the rapture, but His return.
- If God raptures all of His own for a wedding and feast, and then 7 years later comes back for all of those saved during the tribulation, they missed the wedding.
-Is there a second rapture at the end of tribulation or do 100% of tribulation saints have to die of persecution to get to Heaven? One view paints an extra resurrection, and the other that you must be martyred to get to Heaven. Do you think you are more worthy to escape hardship than they?
- They were saved during the tribulation because they refused Christ prior to it? I refused Christ my whole life and could not come to saving faith until God deemed it was time for me to do so. It was God's timing for me, not my timing for God. What does that say about the tribulation saints?
- And there are more things that don't line up.

It wasn't until I studied and read for myself (without trying to make it support what I already believed) that the notion of a pre tribulation rapture (all of the issues aside) just isn't painted in scripture. Not when the whole of the text is considered. Funny thing is, when I stopped trying to fit everything into where I assumed it MUST go, and just let it be what it was, all the issues went away. They are no longer un-fittable and weakly explained away issues.

When we get rid of the preconceived ideas of how scripture must be (man and Satan has done a good job causing devision and confusion and for a reason), and look at what scripture itself speaks then some of these confusions become pretty clear.


Who said anything about God beating up the bride of Christ? We are destined for tribulation (look that up and see how many times we are told that), but we are not destined for wrath of God. The tribulation is not the wrath of God, read for yourself WHEN and what God's wrath is. Tribulation is just a testing of faith. You can stand when life is easy and proclaim God. Only true faith can stand in that time and proclaim, I don't understand all of this hardship, but God is able to deliver me and even if He doesn't, I will worship Him alone!

Rev 3:10 10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. You read that as "take out the church"?
"keep" Greek = tereo means "to guard from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon;
and thus differing from the Greek word (phulasso), which is to prevent escaping through isolation or removing to a secure place;

John 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

God uses Christian's true faith to be seen by others and draws them to Him. What better display of faith will God model during those dark and terrible times, than his own children staring death in the face and proclaiming, "I don't want to die but I cannot deny my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!" What kind of testimony do you think that will display to those who God is calling out of darkness? The peace that surpasses all understanding in the face of what otherwise looks hopeless, here stands one full of hope and joy?!?!



No, It helps to understand what scripture actually is saying, not what I want it to say. It was hard for me to let go of the pre-trib view. I fought to prove it right so I wouldn't have to let it go and was convinced and convicted the more and more that it is not what scripture teaches.

My hope is that God will keep me in the hour of trial. That mirrors every Christian's daily life. Jesus said,
Luke 18:7-8
7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

He will not find faith (those calling out to Him) on earth when He returns if there are none of His children here when He comes. Read that passage in context, Those who are still here, who are calling out to Him are the ones who have faith. Those who are not truly Christians will deny Him because of the hardship, those that are His cry out to Him in time of hardship. There is a great shaking coming upon the world and everything that can be shaken will be. Only that which is firmly planted on the rock cannot be shaken.

Those final days will be a time to separate the sheep from the goats, those who claim to be from those who actually are.

I found this very 'helpful' eHuman... Thank you. I 'hope' as Saints does that Christ 'catches us up' prior to the Tribulation, but if He doesn't this helped me to understand 'why' it's OK and to just hold fast & 'endure'... Thank you.

 

[CartHeadMod]

Why don't you research and come back with what the Bible says about it?

Are you questioning that there will be one or questioning it's purpose? The Bible claims that there will be one so if your issue is that then you take issue with God. If you want to understand the millenium look to scripture. It doesn't go into an abundance of detail as to "why", but that shouldn't cause one to question "if".

dude.....I have.....that's why I keep asking people where they get their ideas from....it isn't from the Bible....it's just plain silliness.....there's nothing in the Bible about people having children after Christ's coming who have to be given time to make their choices about God........

 

[LisaLisa]

.
You missed my point. I mean that your viewpoints as stated forces you into a pre-trib stance, from there everything that does not currently fit needs to be cleverly explained away so that it will fit. (These explanations are wishful and extra biblical in most cases, being "reasoned" from outside of what scripture presents).

It has been going on for a while, that's why this topic is debated so heavily. I started out pre-trib. It is what I was taught, It is what I wanted to believe, it made sense (God rescues us in the nick of time) = win win. Even then it still posed problems like:

-Where do the people having kids in the millennium come from, it's not in the Bible.
-How come we are taught to look and long for the return of Christ but then told "oh the rapture isn't His return, that comes 7 years later". We are not taught to long for the rapture, but His return.
- If God raptures all of His own for a wedding and feast, and then 7 years later comes back for all of those saved during the tribulation, they missed the wedding.
-Is there a second rapture at the end of tribulation or do 100% of tribulation saints have to die of persecution to get to Heaven? One view paints an extra resurrection, and the other that you must be martyred to get to Heaven. Do you think you are more worthy to escape hardship than they?
- They were saved during the tribulation because they refused Christ prior to it? I refused Christ my whole life and could not come to saving faith until God deemed it was time for me to do so. It was God's timing for me, not my timing for God. What does that say about the tribulation saints?
- And there are more things that don't line up.

It wasn't until I studied and read for myself (without trying to make it support what I already believed) that the notion of a pre tribulation rapture (all of the issues aside) just isn't painted in scripture. Not when the whole of the text is considered. Funny thing is, when I stopped trying to fit everything into where I assumed it MUST go, and just let it be what it was, all the issues went away. They are no longer un-fittable and weakly explained away issues.

When we get rid of the preconceived ideas of how scripture must be (man and Satan has done a good job causing devision and confusion and for a reason), and look at what scripture itself speaks then some of these confusions become pretty clear.


Who said anything about God beating up the bride of Christ? We are destined for tribulation (look that up and see how many times we are told that), but we are not destined for wrath of God. The tribulation is not the wrath of God, read for yourself WHEN and what God's wrath is. Tribulation is just a testing of faith. You can stand when life is easy and proclaim God. Only true faith can stand in that time and proclaim, I don't understand all of this hardship, but God is able to deliver me and even if He doesn't, I will worship Him alone!

Rev 3:10 10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. You read that as "take out the church"?
"keep" Greek = tereo means "to guard from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon;
and thus differing from the Greek word (phulasso), which is to prevent escaping through isolation or removing to a secure place;

John 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

God uses Christian's true faith to be seen by others and draws them to Him. What better display of faith will God model during those dark and terrible times, than his own children staring death in the face and proclaiming, "I don't want to die but I cannot deny my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!" What kind of testimony do you think that will display to those who God is calling out of darkness? The peace that surpasses all understanding in the face of what otherwise looks hopeless, here stands one full of hope and joy?!?!



No, It helps to understand what scripture actually is saying, not what I want it to say. It was hard for me to let go of the pre-trib view. I fought to prove it right so I wouldn't have to let it go and was convinced and convicted the more and more that it is not what scripture teaches.

My hope is that God will keep me in the hour of trial. That mirrors every Christian's daily life. Jesus said,
Luke 18:7-8
7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

He will not find faith (those calling out to Him) on earth when He returns if there are none of His children here when He comes. Read that passage in context, Those who are still here, who are calling out to Him are the ones who have faith. Those who are not truly Christians will deny Him because of the hardship, those that are His cry out to Him in time of hardship. There is a great shaking coming upon the world and everything that can be shaken will be. Only that which is firmly planted on the rock cannot be shaken.

Those final days will be a time to separate the sheep from the goats, those who claim to be from those who actually are.

That's pretty compelling, and the reason why I'm not totally bought on the rapture teaching. I"m on the fence. I"m really hoping it's true, but I'm not counting on it either.

I'm afraid that if it doesn't come down that way, the faith of so many will be destroyed because of it. Therefore, I hope for the best and prepare for the worst. I think that's the safest way to do it.

 

[LisaLisa]

dude.....I have.....that's why I keep asking people where they get their ideas from....it isn't from the Bible....it's just plain silliness.....there's nothing in the Bible about people having children after Christ's coming who have to be given time to make their choices about God........

That's true too, the bible does not say anything about that.

 

[blondeambition3]

That's true too, the bible does not say anything about that.

good point

 

[chimney55]

.
You missed my point. I mean that your viewpoints as stated forces you into a pre-trib stance, from there everything that does not currently fit needs to be cleverly explained away so that it will fit. (These explanations are wishful and extra biblical in most cases, being "reasoned" from outside of what scripture presents).

No, I didn't miss your point. Unlike you, I didn't grow up being taught pre-trib stance or post-trib stance. I grew up in church that taught what I know know to be called a-millennialism without a rapture. I was in my early 30s before I ever heard the word in relation to the church. I started studying scripture to learn about God, His character, His story, and His plans, by studying both old and new testaments.

Even then it still posed problems like:

-Where do the people having kids in the millennium come from, it's not in the Bible.
-How come we are taught to look and long for the return of Christ but then told "oh the rapture isn't His return, that comes 7 years later". We are not taught to long for the rapture, but His return.
- If God raptures all of His own for a wedding and feast, and then 7 years later comes back for all of those saved during the tribulation, they missed the wedding.

Since you apparently didn't read it the first time:

It helps to understand the marriage customs at the time that this was written. First, the girl would be chosen, usually by the father of the groom, but not always. Then the groom would go to the girl's home to give his "proposal" to her father or her parents. He would also name the price that he would pay to have her become his bride. If she accepted, then they would drink a cup of wine together. They would not drink another one together until the actual ceremony. The groom would then go back to his father's house. At that time, in that culture, they generally did not build their own home, but added an addition onto his father's house. Usually there was a time of 9 months to a year maybe longer before he would come back for her. It was his father who would decide if the house he had prepared was adequate. Then, the groom would go to get his bride usually in the middle of the night. The bride never knew when exactly the groom would be back to get her, so she had to remain ready to leave even though she was expected to be working on her "trousseau"---things for her new house. Basically, the groom would take her back to the place he had prepared. The only people in the vicinity would be would be his friends and family. After the bride went through the ritual bath to be cleaned, the couple would seclude themselves for a week to consummate the marriage. Officially, they had been considered "married" since the betrothal. After they were officially husband and wife, they would return to HER house. That is where the wedding supper would take place with her friends present. (It's not like today in western culture where they have a wedding and dinner reception on the same day.) Friends will have been alerted to the fact that the bride had been taken by the groom and that would give them a week to make sure that they were ready for the wedding supper. In Matthew 25, we have the parable of the 10 "bridesmaids". This is a picture of those coming to Christ after the rapture after. Some made it in, others who thought that they would did not.

Those who made a commitment to Christ before the rapture are the "Church". Others who come later, and their will be quite a few, are not the bride, but "friends of the bride". The "engagement ring" given at the time of the betrothal to the Church was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit---a promise that the groom will come back for her. Those who go through the tribulation never accepted the "engagement ring" nor did they accept the "dowry" paid by the groom which was paid in His own blood. When the "engagement ring" goes, so will the bride. The Holy Spirit will obviously be present during the tribulation, but will not indwell believers in the same way that it did during the "church age".

-Is there a second rapture at the end of tribulation or do 100% of tribulation saints have to die of persecution to get to Heaven? One view paints an extra resurrection, and the other that you must be martyred to get to Heaven. Do you think you are more worthy to escape hardship than they?
- They were saved during the tribulation because they refused Christ prior to it? I refused Christ my whole life and could not come to saving faith until God deemed it was time for me to do so. It was God's timing for me, not my timing for God. What does that say about the tribulation saints?
- And there are more things that don't line up.

It wasn't until I studied and read for myself (without trying to make it support what I already believed) that the notion of a pre tribulation rapture (all of the issues aside) just isn't painted in scripture. Not when the whole of the text is considered. Funny thing is, when I stopped trying to fit everything into where I assumed it MUST go, and just let it be what it was, all the issues went away. They are no longer un-fittable and weakly explained away issues.

When we get rid of the preconceived ideas of how scripture must be (man and Satan has done a good job causing devision and confusion and for a reason), and look at what scripture itself speaks then some of these confusions become pretty clear.


Who said anything about God beating up the bride of Christ? We are destined for tribulation (look that up and see how many times we are told that), but we are not destined for wrath of God. The tribulation is not the wrath of God, read for yourself WHEN and what God's wrath is. Tribulation is just a testing of faith. You can stand when life is easy and proclaim God. Only true faith can stand in that time and proclaim, I don't understand all of this hardship, but God is able to deliver me and even if He doesn't, I will worship Him alone!

No, there will only be one tribulation period where God will pour out on the world who rejected Him and His free gift of salvation. These are called the "bowl judgments" They will be proceeded by both the seal judgments and the trumpet judgments. While we are taught to expect trials and tribulations in our lives (and there are many), when we we taught to expect judgment by God and wrath to come upon us. Judgment for what? For sins that were not paid for on the cross of Christ? I KNOW when the wrath of God is to occur. If you look at Rev. 6:15-17, you will see:

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?





Rev 3:10 10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. You read that as "take out the church"?
"keep" Greek = tereo means "to guard from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon;
and thus differing from the Greek word (phulasso), which is to prevent escaping through isolation or removing to a secure place;[/COLOR]

The statement "TEREO EK" (which is the term in the Bible not just the word "tereo) in the Greek in Revelation 3:10 means "to keep out," not "to take out." The Greek word "AIREO" which means "to take out" is not used in this context. The implication is that the Church Age believer will be kept out of the entire Tribulation period. This means the Church Age believer will not be taken out or removed during the middle of the Tribulation period either because they were never left on earth to enter it

God uses Christian's true faith to be seen by others and draws them to Him. What better display of faith will God model during those dark and terrible times, than his own children staring death in the face and proclaiming, "I don't want to die but I cannot deny my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!" What kind of testimony do you think that will display to those who God is calling out of darkness? The peace that surpasses all understanding in the face of what otherwise looks hopeless, here stands one full of hope and joy?!?!

You're operating under the false assumption that God NEEDS us to witness during the tribulation period. There will be the 2 witnesses, the 144,000, angels flying across the sky, many people who will be martyred for His sake. When we leave in the rapture, it will be because our work is done. All the people who will accept Christ before the tribulation will have already come to Him. The others need more "convincing" by seeing the judgments of the Lamb and of God. It sounds like your looking forward to proving that you are "worthy" of salvation. Myself, I know that I'm not worthy--it's only by grace that I have been saved.

No, It helps to understand what scripture actually is saying, not what I want it to say. It was hard for me to let go of the pre-trib view. I fought to prove it right so I wouldn't have to let it go and was convinced and convicted the more and more that it is not what scripture teaches.

You should have tried harder to hang on to the pre-trib view. It's the only one that agrees with both scripture AND the character of God (which we discern through reading His word. It might help you in your studies if you realize that the book of Revelation was written more or less in chronological order. The exception is when we are told what will happen and then the next chapter goes into more detail of the statements that were just made. Chapter 1 is the "introduction" in which Christ tells John to right what he see, the things that are, and the things that are to come (are yet future for John). The things that are were in Chapters 2 & 3 which was a description of actual churches in John's day--with commendations, admonitions, etc. After chapter 3, the word "church" is not used again in the entire book of Revelation. Chapters 4 & 5 describe what John saw when he was "taken up to heaven". Chapter 6 is where the seal judgments (opened by Christ's own hand) begin and the wrath of the Lamb.

After coming to Christ, I had no pre-conceived notions about any of this and none that I was trying to run away from.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Chimney, I couldn't have said it better or put it in the order better than you just did! You are absolutely correct about the Jewish wedding. But that glass of wine couldn't be shared by both IF she was in her cycle. They'd have had 2 cups. I'm not trying to be gross or anything, but it's a fact. When a starving Rabbi married my parents, knowing Mom wasn't Jewish, she had to drink from a separate cup because of her cycle.....there were bystanders in the back yelling....."Stop the wedding, she's not Jewish!!!!!" Mom said the Rabbi started talking faster. They knew each other 6 days....got married and stayed married for 65 years, until Daddy died. They are both waiting for me and I got to tell you, I miss them each and every day. There's not a day that goes by that I don't think of them or speak honorably about them. As sick as both of them were, I'm glad their suffering is over and they're having such a great time with Jesus and my 2 grandchildren. I asked Mom on one of her clearer days before she died if she would tell them about their MiMi Linda. She said of course she would. Thank You, Lord that they are no longer hurting or sick and that they are praising You each and every moment. I can't wait, Lord. I just can't wait. In Your Name, Lord I pray, Amein.

 

[chimney55]

Chimney, I couldn't have said it better or put it in the order better than you just did! You are absolutely correct about the Jewish wedding. But that glass of wine couldn't be shared by both IF she was in her cycle. They'd have had 2 cups. I'm not trying to be gross or anything, but it's a fact. When a starving Rabbi married my parents, knowing Mom wasn't Jewish, she had to drink from a separate cup because of her cycle.....there were bystanders in the back yelling....."Stop the wedding, she's not Jewish!!!!!" Mom said the Rabbi started talking faster. They knew each other 6 days....got married and stayed married for 65 years, until Daddy died. They are both waiting for me and I got to tell you, I miss them each and every day. There's not a day that goes by that I don't think of them or speak honorably about them. As sick as both of them were, I'm glad their suffering is over and they're having such a great time with Jesus and my 2 grandchildren. I asked Mom on one of her clearer days before she died if she would tell them about their MiMi Linda. She said of course she would. Thank You, Lord that they are no longer hurting or sick and that they are praising You each and every moment. I can't wait, Lord. I just can't wait. In Your Name, Lord I pray, Amein.

(((hugs))) to you SC. I know that you'll be happy to see them again soon when our Lord calls us up for the wedding!!

 

[blondeambition3]

Chimney, I couldn't have said it better or put it in the order better than you just did! You are absolutely correct about the Jewish wedding. But that glass of wine couldn't be shared by both IF she was in her cycle. They'd have had 2 cups. I'm not trying to be gross or anything, but it's a fact. When a starving Rabbi married my parents, knowing Mom wasn't Jewish, she had to drink from a separate cup because of her cycle.....there were bystanders in the back yelling....."Stop the wedding, she's not Jewish!!!!!" Mom said the Rabbi started talking faster. They knew each other 6 days....got married and stayed married for 65 years, until Daddy died. They are both waiting for me and I got to tell you, I miss them each and every day. There's not a day that goes by that I don't think of them or speak honorably about them. As sick as both of them were, I'm glad their suffering is over and they're having such a great time with Jesus and my 2 grandchildren. I asked Mom on one of her clearer days before she died if she would tell them about their MiMi Linda. She said of course she would. Thank You, Lord that they are no longer hurting or sick and that they are praising You each and every moment. I can't wait, Lord. I just can't wait. In Your Name, Lord I pray, Amein.

Me too Chimney.. This is closer to what I've been taught to 'HOPE' for.. closer to what I 'feel' in my Spirit. I believe we're living in a form of 'judgement' now, but I find it hard to believe that 'blood bought, spirit filled' believers would have to experience The wrath of of 'Abba Father'.. that's 'who' we are when we become born again believers.. While I'm open to the possibility that I may have to go through the Tribulation (if I'm not found worthy to escape it), I will if I have to.. my Hope which is in Christ Jesus (based on many scriptural passages indicating to me otherwise) assures me that I won't.

 

[KellyinAZ]

Chimney, SC and Blondeambition...

AWESOME posts! Chimney you laid that perfectly and in perfect order as well. Maybe you would consider leading our Bible Study thread that seems to have lost Southern Gent as our lead person who wrote out the chapters and explained them. I thought this was good because we were all reading the same words posted VS. everyone reading a, perhaps, different version depending on which Bible they individually use.

I don't know if any of you happened to look at how many read the Bible Study thread but the number was huge, just not many posted comments. I would like to see if we can find someone to pick it up again. Chimney, I am asking you if you might consider doing it and on your terms, even if it is one chapter a week, I believe it is better than just letting it fade away.

Just my humble opinion of course...
Be well,
Kelly
In God We Trust

 

[chimney55]

Me too Chimney.. This is closer to what I've been taught to 'HOPE' for.. closer to what I 'feel' in my Spirit. I believe we're living in a form of 'judgement' now, but I find it hard to believe that 'blood bought, spirit filled' believers would have to experience The wrath of of 'Abba Father'.. that's 'who' we are when we become born again believers.. While I'm open to the possibility that I may have to go through the Tribulation (if I'm not found worthy to escape it), I will if I have to.. my Hope which is in Christ Jesus (based on many scriptural passages indicating to me otherwise) assures me that I won't.

Excuse me for being blunt, but none of is worthy to escape the tribulation for we are all sinners. I'm only saved because of the "work" done on the cross by Christ. Otherwise, I am worthy of hell. It's only the righteousness of Christ that was imputed to me when I accepted Him as my savior. And if we're given the righteousness of Christ, why would we go through the tribulation--we are no longer under judgment.

To this I will add from Titus 2:11-15

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.



Notice that in the King James version, blessed hope and glorious appearing are 2 separate events. What would our blessed hope be if it meant suffering through that wrath of the Lamb AND the wrath of God?

 

[chimney55]

Chimney, SC and Blondeambition...

AWESOME posts! Chimney you laid that perfectly and in perfect order as well. Maybe you would consider leading our Bible Study thread that seems to have lost Southern Gent as our lead person who wrote out the chapters and explained them. I thought this was good because we were all reading the same words posted VS. everyone reading a, perhaps, different version depending on which Bible they individually use.

I don't know if any of you happened to look at how many read the Bible Study thread but the number was huge, just not many posted comments. I would like to see if we can find someone to pick it up again. Chimney, I am asking you if you might consider doing it and on your terms, even if it is one chapter a week, I believe it is better than just letting it fade away.

Just my humble opinion of course...
Be well,
Kelly
In God We Trust

If the others are in agreement, I will prayerfully consider it. I'm not going to commit at this moment.

 

[KellyinAZ]

Thanks Chimney,

That is all I can ask for. Pray and consider it, who knows where God will lead you.

Kelly
In God We Trust