Is the nic bar becoming lower?

[vapdivrr]

Reading this has got my ol' gray matter doing cycles inside. I, like others, started at 24mg/ml with an EVOD VV at 3.2 - 4.8 watts with an Aspire Nautilus topper. It was a simple system and also was what got me off of the cigarettes. When I finally picked up my first real VV 18650 style mod I believe it was the IPV2 and an Aspire Atlantis tank I still stayed with the unflavored 24 mg/ml juice. It wasn't until I got the first sub-ohm tank that I dropped down to 12 mg/ml, I think I had been vaping about 6 months then.
Now I see these "Beginner" kits that are High Wattage and sub-ohm with low nic. I can't help but feel the vape shops are setting up beginners to fail. Just my .

I do agree that a good percentage of new vapors are being steered into those gas guzzlers just because those stores only carry those and like juice sales. What I cannot believe is how a new vapor can actually adapt that dtl method? Although I don't vape dtl, I have tried it, but it took me years to get the hang of it. To go from nothing or smoking to dtl for a new vapor seems a hard thing to do imo, just not the norm.

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[DaveP]

I started at 24mg on Joye 510's and eGo, then switched to Kayfuns and stayed there until Obamacare started the high rates if you smoked. I started down in nic hoping to be less nic saturated if my blood work showed "Smoker". I later found out that the nic test strips I ordered would show my minimal 3mg/ml juice as a positive for nic. Those strips are sensitive. I stayed at 3mg strength after that and found that as long as I could detect the nic bite in my vape I was happy.

I've vaped 9ml or 10ml a day of 3mg/ml nic strength for years and been fine. I have the nic test strips and they still show me as a smoker. I did one about a month ago and it still showed smoker status at 3mg/ml vaping about two 4.5ml Kayfun tanks a day.

 

[DaveP]

I never consider a .7 ohm vapor doing mtl on simple mtl low powered devices a sub ohm vapor. Technically your correct, and years ago I could see this, but now it confuses me as sub ohm typically means a totally different thing. When I think of a sub ohm vapor, I think of very high wattage, devices specifically made for dtl open af, and much lower nic. I myself vape mtl rtas with 24mg nic and only vape 2 to 3mls per day, but do make my coils under 1 ohm and with today's definitions, I don't consider myself a sub ohm vapor because with regulated devices, resistances don't really mean much imo. To many labels I suppose

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Sub Ohm is just a resistance level, IMO. High Air Flow/low air flow is a more accurate description between the categories. 10W at .5 ohms is technically sub ohm (below one ohm), but generally vaped at a lower wattage. High VG juice is also a clue.

I tried high VG juice for a while and my lungs felt like I'd smoked too many cigarettes (I haven't smoked at all since early 2011). I went back to 70pg and that feeling went away. Flavor is also better at 70pg for me. But then, I'm a MTL vaper.

 

[Eskie]

Freebase nic... I see references to such, but I haven't a clue.

Exactly what is "freebase nic?"

It's when you better call Saul.

Real vape shops aren't going to be into selling Juuls and competing with gas stations at low margins. They'll do "higher end" pods, but rely on more expensive hardware which usually ends up being dtl. Until recently there weren't a Tom of tanks and drop in coils for mtl outside of Nautilus stuff. Now you have more choices in that area. You also have a lot more mtl RTAs out there. Look at the RTA section here and it's got a ton of threads mtl tanks, not just dl.

The only reason I moved over to dl was I prefer the loose draw with it. I'd be perfectly content if I had little cloud produced, but unfortunately it goes with the method. I did recently win an EQ pod from Innokin. It's a tight draw and I got some mix salts for it. First draw and I was coughing my lungs out. I found that my 6 mg juices were reasonably tasty in it, and while I still got some nic cravings if I stay with it more than a few hours, but I can't complain about the little cloud.
I should just get some 12 mg and it would be better, but a lot of the juices I really like max out at 6 mg. Right now I can't mix for myself but when I can that will be the first thing I'll do and make a variety of strengths of clones I really like.

 

[dom qp]

I do agree that a good percentage of new vapors are being steered into those gas guzzlers just because those stores only carry those and like juice sales. What I cannot believe is how a new vapor can actually adapt that dtl method? Although I don't vape dtl, I have tried it, but it took me years to get the hang of it. To go from nothing or smoking to dtl for a new vapor seems a hard thing to do imo, just not the norm.

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I couldn't quit smoking entirely until subohming became a thing. I smoked 1.5-2 packs a day and was used to MTL, although I did my fair share of DTL cigarette smoking when I needed to down 2 in my union mandated 10 minute break.

I don't think DTL is unnatural. It might just be because I live in Canada, but it seems like most people learn to DTL during their teenage years. It's like riding a bike.

Where I live most sales are on AIO/MTL/Pod devices. A lot of the smaller stores don't even carry around squonkers or DTL stuff outside of Smok anymore. They make their money on consumables, which go hand in hand with pods and/or cheap chinese devices.

I recently starting ordering my ejuice from warped vapors. They use salt and i'm used to freebase. I haven't had nicotine buzzes in years, since I started smoking cigarettes almost. Jesus this stuff gets my head spinning at 3mg.

 

[Rossum]

I never consider a .7 ohm vapor doing mtl on simple mtl low powered devices a sub ohm vapor. Technically your correct, and years ago I could see this, but now it confuses me as sub ohm typically means a totally different thing. When I think of a sub ohm vapor, I think of very high wattage, devices specifically made for dtl open af, and much lower nic. I myself vape mtl rtas with 24mg nic and only vape 2 to 3mls per day, but do make my coils under 1 ohm and with today's definitions, I don't consider myself a sub ohm vapor because with regulated devices, resistances don't really mean much imo. To many labels I suppose

Too many inaccurate labels. My usual build in a small BF RDA has been a single coil at around 0.75 ohms for four years now. Technically sub-ohm. Yet most other vapers these days would call me a tootle-puffer if they observed my vaping style. Oh, and I use 65-70% VG as well.

 

[Foggy Road]

Did you start out vaping dtl?

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Actually started in mid 2015 exactly where I'm at right now. Even the same gear now. Went thru the gimme more and more phase until I was midrange DL @ .3-.6 ohm.
Then the POD craze hit and I started wondering if I could go back to that level. But I've seen sooooo many going from pod to pod to pod trying to find one that suited them. I won't waste money that way. I realized I already had better than any pod system I was seeing, sitting in my pile of retired gear. 650mah VV batteries, 2-3ml refillable clearos (some) with AFC, and DIRT CHEAP throw away coils. I do have RTAs and have rebuilt nearly every coil I've gotten my hands on but I'm getting lazy about it.

Currently in a frenzied search for relic gear that is still available and suits my needs.

 

[vapdivrr]

Actually started in mid 2015 exactly where I'm at right now. Even the same gear now. Went thru the gimme more and more phase until I was midrange DL @ .3-.6 ohm.
Then the POD craze hit and I started wondering if I could go back to that level. But I've seen sooooo many going from pod to pod to pod trying to find one that suited them. I won't waste money that way. I realized I already had better than any pod system I was seeing, sitting in my pile of retired gear. 650mah VV batteries, 2-3ml refillable clearos (some) with AFC, and DIRT CHEAP throw away coils. I do have RTAs and have rebuilt nearly every coil I've gotten my hands on but I'm getting lazy about it.

Currently in a frenzied search for relic gear that is still available and suits my needs.

Gotcha....kind of full circle....but that's the cool thing in vaping, choices, and perhaps in a couple more years you might switch again....it's like juice flavors for me. Over 7 years ago I wanted tobacco juices and liked them, I then switched to coffee, bakery, fruits, custards. About 3 years ago I went back to tobaccos, where I still am....cool choices

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[vapdivrr]

Sub Ohm is a resistance level as far as I'm concerned. High Air Flow/low air floor is a more accurate description between the categories. 10W at .5 ohms is technically sub ohm (below one ohm). High VG juice is also a clue.

I tried high VG juice for a while and my lungs felt like I'd smoked too many cigarettes. I went back to 70pg and that feeling went away. Flavor is also better at 70pg.

I like that....

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[uthinkofsomething]

I never consider a .7 ohm vapor doing mtl on simple mtl low powered devices a sub ohm vapor. Technically your correct, and years ago I could see this, but now it confuses me as sub ohm typically means a totally different thing. When I think of a sub ohm vapor, I think of very high wattage, devices specifically made for dtl open af, and much lower nic. I myself vape mtl rtas with 24mg nic and only vape 2 to 3mls per day, but do make my coils under 1 ohm and with today's definitions, I don't consider myself a sub ohm vapor because with regulated devices, resistances don't really mean much imo. To many labels I suppose

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That's pretty valid to me. I think as mentioned above the a better comparison could be made with actual amount of mgs of nic consumed. DL or MTL, a lot of us are using similar amounts of nic, I think. Some lower, some higher of course.

 

[DaveP]

That's pretty valid to me. I think as mentioned above the a better comparison could be made with actual amount of mgs of nic consumed. DL or MTL, a lot of us are using similar amounts of nic, I think. Some lower, some higher of course.

I think ML of juice vaped per day is the telltale for DTL vs MTL vaping. Lower nic is necessary at high vape volume, but lots of MTL vapers also vape low nic. We all vape what's satisfying to our own flavor preference, vapor level, and nic level.

I have a friend who vapes high VG in DTL mode and blows thick clouds of vapor 8 or 10 feet long. His nic level is about the same as mine at 3mg/6mg, but I vape discretely in public places and only once has anyone told me their policy prevented vaping. He has to go outside to vape, so he's vaping much less frequently than me.

 

[Foggy Road]

Gotcha....kind of full circle....but that's the cool thing in vaping, choices, and perhaps in a couple more years you might switch again....it's like juice flavors for me. Over 7 years ago I wanted tobacco juices and liked them, I then switched to coffee, bakery, fruits, custards. About 3 years ago I went back to tobaccos, where I still am....cool choices

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And like you I'm completing the flavor circle now. Have a very pleasing coffee flavor just mixed yesterday and ready to start trying to find a good but simple tobacco recipe.

 

[vapdivrr]

I couldn't quit smoking entirely until subohming became a thing. I smoked 1.5-2 packs a day and was used to MTL, although I did my fair share of DTL cigarette smoking when I needed to down 2 in my union mandated 10 minute break.

I don't think DTL is unnatural. It might just be because I live in Canada, but it seems like most people learn to DTL during their teenage years. It's like riding a bike.

Where I live most sales are on AIO/MTL/Pod devices. A lot of the smaller stores don't even carry around squonkers or DTL stuff outside of Smok anymore. They make their money on consumables, which go hand in hand with pods and/or cheap chinese devices.

I recently starting ordering my ejuice from warped vapors. They use salt and i'm used to freebase. I haven't had nicotine buzzes in years, since I started smoking cigarettes almost. Jesus this stuff gets my head spinning at 3mg.

Interesting, never thought that type of inhale could be geographic perhaps. I only remember people who smoked that other stuff using that inhale, but maybe because I didn't really know that method, I never paid much attention. When dtl inhaling a cig, do you make that sucking sound like when vaping dtl?

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[OhmzRaw]

The nic bar has definitely been lowered. Nowadays it's pretty hard to find a high strength juice. In my country it's difficult to find anything higher than 6mg and recently even 6mg is starting to disappear from some local brands.

Luckily, nicotine salts has started making an appearance however, vendors here don't keep/don't want to keep 50mg strengths which means I'm stuck with 35mg strengths. Our local sale e-liquids are at 15mg-20mg which is quite low.

I think the reason for all of this is because #1, the cost is lower for the local juice maker if he does 15mg salts compared to lets say 35mg or 50mg. #2, There isn't a large demand for such high strengths which would explain why vape shops don't want to keep such high strengths of e-liquid.

 

[dom qp]

Interesting, never thought that type of inhale could be geographic perhaps.

That's what I mean. NYTimes wrote in an article that 40% of Canadians have tried smoking that other stuff. If you exclude older folks, and focus on the same demographic as those who are more likely to vape, I figure it would be much much higher.

 

[Rossum]

That's what I mean. NYTimes wrote in an article that 40% of Canadians have tried smoking that other stuff. If you exclude older folks, and focus on the same demographic as those who are more likely to vape, I figure it would be much much higher.

Why would you exclude "older folks"? How old is the "Woodstock generation" now?

 

[440BB]

That's enough for me to climb out of my beanbag chair, stop to pee (twice) and search for my teeth!

Somebody get those Canucks offa my lawn!

 

[dom qp]

Why would you exclude "older folks"? How old is the "Woodstock generation" now?

Woodstock generation are the ones who legalized and opened up shops in Canada. Thinking more about their parents.

Guessing we should cut out the younger ones too. <=12 probably much less than 40%... hopefully.

 

[uthinkofsomething]

I think ML of juice vaped per day is the telltale for DTL vs MTL vaping. Lower nic is necessary at high vape volume, but lots of MTL vapers also vape low nic. We all vape what's satisfying to ours own flavor preference, vapor level, and nic level.

I have a friend who vapes high VG in DTL mode and blows thick clouds of vapor 8 or 10 feet long. His nic level is about the same as mine at 3mg/6mg, but I vape discretely in public places and only once has anyone told me their policy prevented vaping. He has to go outside to vape, so he's vaping much less frequently than me.

To me, the tanks and cartos I started with were too restrictive, it was not like smoking. Like trying to suck a watermelon through a hose. I did mtl for just over a year then the Kanger subtank came out, I picked up that and an istick 30, and that was a gamechanger, put away my vision spinners and Aerotank (don't miss that leaky piece o crap a bit) and other mtl tanks, and it's just progressed from there. I enjoy the ease of inhale and I always loved to blow smoke rings and look at smoke and all that, so I like a thick tasty cloud. When I got the subtank I was using 6 and 9 mg liquid, which was plenty for me as I chain vape a lot, but in the subtank I would get a buzz off the 6mg in a few minutes, and I don't like that so I lowered to 3mg and that is where I have remained.
The times I lowered my nic were due to getting more nic than I wanted, not because I wanted to eliminate nic. I don't plan on going down from 3mg, I like the feel of 3mg and the little bit of throat hit and flavor it has has been good for me for about 3 years.
Again, in a day I'm still intaking a hefty amount of nicotine.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I don't think 'subohm' means much. Watts (+/- temperature control?) is more telling than the resistance of the coil. Coil resistance and gauge of wire might make some difference in the subtleties of the quality of vape, but subohm by itself means nothing.

My coils are subohm, but I vape at modest wattage and MTL.

mg/day tells us something about how much nic we actually consume...perhaps something about our level of nic need.

Watts (+/- temperature control?) x mg/ml is a general indication of how much TH we desire.

Flavorings, or lack thereof can effect mouthfeel and perhaps TH to an extent.

High wattage and low nic is a realm I've not explored, but I don't doubt that clouds impart a different feel.

'For me' low nic and low wattage would be rather anemic. I can't say how that might play in DTL. I vape like I smoked.

 

[DaveP]

Why would you exclude "older folks"? How old is the "Woodstock generation" now?

I graduated from high school the same year as Woodstock (1969). Now, I'm an older folk (you can do the math). That's fine, I actually experienced musical history in the making. Phil Walden (Capricorn studios - Macon) put on a Woodstock like battle of the bands at the local football stadium. We lost that year, but a couple of years later we won the citywide Battle of the Bands at the auditorium. The music festival was my band's first "professional" appearance after starting out by playing in youth centers and at private parties. Some of my acquaintances included local members of Atlanta Rhythm Section and the Allman Brothers Band. Macon has a rep for producing musicians, mostly due to Capricorn Studios being located downtown, although Phil and Alan Walden moved the company to Nashville a decade or so ago.