Knock off rant

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Doglips

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I question sometimes why some companies price there stuff so high...when you can read post that people are having problems with it...almost a marketing angle...High Price means were better. Yes most of the time, but not 100%.

That said someone copies the idea and makes it for 50% less most likely cut some corners, but also did not have the R&D cost and such so that also lowers their break even point.

I also ???? how many copies are made in the exact same factory..just this week were making X not Y so change the labels. I see this a lot in the ac world. Take the Brand Carrier, top shelf is Carrier, then Bryant, then Payne. All have the exact same part numbers. Take if even further, and Carrier owns ICP (international Comfort products) and these are sold as more store brand names....but the UPC bar code pulls up a carrier part. But to be fair all the AC companies get their parts form other companies. Copland makes 90% of the ac compressors in home units. The fan motors are GE or Emerson. The rest of the components are made by who knows...

Well could this not also be the case of the copies? Company Contracts with xyz to make 10,000 Dog vapers....at the end on the run, well got the tooling already set up....so they make another 10,000 and call them cat vapors....I Question this being possible in places like china.

Just something to think about.
 

UncleChuck

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I'm not sure exactly what the OP means by knock-off:

Something that shares a the same idea as something else? Is a Zmax or a Vamo a Provari knock-off? I'd argue no.

Something that is nearly identical but solid as it's own product? Here is gets gray for me. Take eGo stuff for example. Yes, Joytech was the first to come out with something called an eGo, and yes most eGo clones are nearly identical. But I don't really consider all non-joye eGos to be "knock-offs" What about band-aids? "Band-aid" is a brand name. Everyone calles adhesive bandages "band-aids" even though they technically aren't. Generic adhesive bandages are nearly identical to authentic band-aids, it's a strip of adhesive fabric or plastic with a small piece of gauze on it. Are all non-bain-aid brand bandages just knock-offs?

eGo has become a type of PV and not a brand of PV, just like band-aids have become a type of bandage and not a brand of bandage. joyetech isn't out of business because people copy the eGo. joyetech still makes new products and has money for R&D. The people that make band-aid still try to innovate and come out with new products.


The only time it bugs me is if a product is literally identical, or if it's being sold as a genuine product.

Look at Provape for instance. The Provari is old. Their provape-1 is old. They are basically unchanged in a long time. But, people still buy them. People still love them. Provape is still making more money. Even though there are things that are cheaper that do nearly the exact same thing as the Provari, people still buy the provari. I didn't pass on a Provari because of it's price, I passed on it because I don't like it's lack of VW, I don't like the overall look and feel of the piece, don't like it's screen, or it's user interface.

Luckily other manufactuers are willing to branch out and produce products with more features, or different designs. This seems to be the case the majority of the time, when copies are concerned. Compared to all the stuff available out there, I've seen few instances of what I would consider blatantly knocking something off. And when it does happen I don't like it.

And don't get me started on all the hard to get stuff. I refuse to pay a huge markup on something simply because the guy making them can't meet demand. That's not a judgement for the people making the stuff, I totally understand that they don't own a huge factory to pump these things out. There are several devices like this that I would love to own (and would own) given the chance, but I'm not going to wait around for months and months and pay buckets of money simply because I'd be joining an exclusive club.

If the makers cannot meet demand, then what damage is being done to the makers of these products? EVERYTHING they make sells out almost instantly. China making copies of these products isn't going to hurt someone that already has a cult following, and can only products 20 units a month.

I just look at it as a realist. If guy A can't meet demand, then guy B will. If there comes a point where all these rare high end devices are just sitting on shelves gathering dust because everyone is buying china knock offs, I'll change my tune. But I don't believe that has happened once in the history of vaping.
 

SissySpike

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I think to a certain point we have a since of entitlement going on these days I see a lot of statements to the effect of blaming the original manufacturer for the reason you have to buy a knockoff Im not talking something that just kinda looks like something but has their own Ideas involved to advance it or make it more practical or affordable. Im talking out and out design rip off.
Anyway when someone tells me its ok to do something shady because its what everyone else is doing, Its the only way I can have one, so on and so fourth. It seems to me they are making excuses
I have not seen one post that said because I do not care about the people who put their time and effort in to said device I only care about me and what I want. I am selfish and do not care if my desire to have something out ways supporting thieves.
What ever happened to saving up and buying something? Or using your credit card and paying some interest for the credit card company loaning you the money. Or doing some odd jobs or side work to earn a little extra to get the thing you want but its not in the budget.
I think we are so use to this sort of stuff we do it with out thinking. We don't give any thought to our actions. We are not concerned about the others if it means we get what we want NOW!
There is always more value in quality we all know that, Therese a certain since of accomplishment when you sacrifice to get something. Its a good feeling to have a prized possession. You earned.
 

meli.

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I question sometimes why some companies price there stuff so high...when you can read post that people are having problems with it...almost a marketing angle...High Price means were better. Yes most of the time, but not 100%.

That said someone copies the idea and makes it for 50% less most likely cut some corners, but also did not have the R&D cost and such so that also lowers their break even point...
Indeed.

And if a rogue manufacturer is able to produce a replica to exact specification of the original at a lower cost, then the original maker of the product would probably need to look to his cost base. This is the normal situation in a competitive marketplace.

Given that the original maker has invested in the design and creation of the product he is of course entitled to recoup those costs through the sale of his product but not to the degree that he prices himself out of the market.

Whilst not condoning plagiarism one also needs to adopt a practical view of life and decide that after making an investment in design, does one carry on selling very few high priced items or reducing the cost to a competitive level and recovering as much of the R&D cost as possible?

Vapers, be they on ECF or not, do not live in a bubble in which they can control market forces and have a way of controlling the rules of international trade. They live in a global market from which they take benefit when it suits them and complain about it when it does not.
 

Plumes.91

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When a wild African dog makes a kill he immediately calls out to the rest of the pack to share the kill. The older dogs will more often than not become submissive, rolling on their backs and licking the younger dog's faces to let them know that they would like them to eat first. As soon as the younger dogs have gotten their fill of the kill, the older dogs become their usual dominant selves, nipping at the younger dogs to allow them to finish off the carcass. When wild dogs are ambushed by lions, rather than picking up their young in their jowls like they can often be seen doing as they trot about the African wilderness, they break into two groups at first. Some of the elder dogs push the bottoms of the puppies toward safety, before running away with the others. No puppy is picked up and carried. On average, 3 quarters of the puppies from each new litter are killed by lions. They want the other puppies to not only see one of their siblings get killed, they want to drill that danger into their heads so that the remaining puppies memorize that face of danger and how to get away from it. They teach each other to hunt and the politics within a pack often changes to allow each male a chance at the top hunter, alpha male spot. Interestingly, wild African dogs are one of the most sophisticated hierarchies in the animal kingdom, complete with both alpha male, AND an alpha female, something that is only seen in moderately intelligent animals, such as apes, elephants, and human beings with their multiple clans, such as their families, friends, schools, organizations and careers. If your in a fast developing technology its sink or swim and that is the nature of our global economy in these days. If you want to assign moral guidelines to your socioeconomic belief system, be my guest, but as long as American companies depend on and prescribe to the politics of the industrial revolution of the 40s when its clearly a new age, they run the risk of sinking. Your not going to get as much money from a new invention these days as you used to. Life is not fair and for every right move you make as an inventor and business owner there are 200 million lions with their own share of hardships just dying to eat you. The rules of the game are changing and if you don't adapt your strategy, then be ready to die. There are plenty of elders nudging you and your American brothers, its up to you as a self sufficient business to employ tactics to get to the safety of the brush. What do you think a genius like Zen would have to say about copies of his device? Do you really think he wasn't wise enough to see it coming? No, he was wise enough to see the genesis design, and improve on it. He was wise enough to know a niche when he saw one. He was smart enough to know that this forum is a breeding ground of people wanting and willing to show off limited edition, specialty devices that will make them , feel special. He was wise enough to know that when a group of people come together with a common interest, if you can do something to earn their trust and curiosity you can lead them. He took that alpha dog spot and he knows that others will employ tactics to take that spot from him and he knows that at any time his children could be eaten by wolves. He knows you can nudge your product in the right direction but if your product doesn't continue to evolve and excite your niche market the lions will eat it up.

I am 21 years young and I grew up into the millennium. The highschools were full of loan sharks, extortionists & drugs. kids selling candy bars and soda cans out of their backpacks. Capitalism is alive and well in our schools, trust me. In 11th grade I was suspended for selling soda out of my backpack. The principal thought I was dealing drugs. I started selling soda and candy bars out of my backpack as soon as the state banned junk food in our vending machines... My candy bars (bought bulk at walmart @ 75 cents each) were sold 2.50 and my soda was 4 dollars. I was able to sell my candy and soda at a premium when the market went bare, when soda and candy became rarities. If I walked around with nature bars covered in chocolate for 75 cents, I would probably get more sales on average but it would take up my entire lunch period.

I would love for you to tell me that mod makers and juice makers have not taken advantage of US? Your telling me that after the 1st 3-4 runs of the iHybrid, or the Provari, or the GG, they couldn't lower the price by 10 or 20 dollars and increase the amount made to meet the demand? Absolutely not! By doing that you actually decrease the mystic nature of your product in this niche market. And by that political and economical constitution you create for yourself higher demand and a collectors market. Provape doesn't want everyone to have a Provari. They want to put food on their pup's table. Remember when you had to sell your 1st born child to get that vendor's RY4? Do you know how easily they could of spent a portion of their roth IRAs or life savings on a larger order of their juice making supplies, they could have lowered the price of the juice and they could of put their product in every vaper's juice collection. but they didn't, and they don't. They want their product to become sought after, hard to find, they want one purchase to give them a large margin of profit to costs. The Chinese aren't nudging into our rarities market, they sell at cheap prices and they use cheaper materials and cheaper labor that allows them to sell in large quantities... And guess what? They got me. They got me, and 100 of my forum friends to buy their aga-T this month because the price and design appealed to us over the rarity and "specialness" of a more expensive genesis styled product. They are playing the game with the new rules and they are doing well, but at the price of obviously losing the market sector looking for highest quality and rarity/collect-ability. Evolution. Each animal evolved with a different set of adaptations to predators and the harsh nature of reality. That make-cheap-sell-high ethic tends to work out for the foreigners, because if your manufacturing within the US the price of manufacturing is already high. But yet a lot of us, hell, a lot of them, want more US manufacturers to follow suit of other high quality manufacturers believe it or not. Despite the availability of the clones, we still want more US collectable and rare mods. We want more successful US made or well-made mods. Manufacturers are listening because new high quality mods + mod makers are indeed coming out and they don't give a .... that the Chinese copy their design, thats flattering but really, they have the market they want and they know the way things work. I was raised to find a deal, so I am inherently not in the collector mod maker's customer base. The manufacturers are smart enough to see that this forum is a corralled group of steer, just waiting for the next big thing for our collections.

When a wild African dog makes a kill he immediately calls out to the rest of the pack to share the kill.
 
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Butters78

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Save the puppies..


African-wild-dog-pups-feeding.jpg
 

SeanMoore

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Counterfeit items aren't the bugaboo that most IP holders make them out to be. Take a Coach brand bag, for instance. Someone wants Coach but can't get Coach so they buy one from a street vendor that they very well know to be counterfeit. This does not decrease their desire for the real thing. In fact, it's been shown in some studies that people who buy the fake often move on to buy the real thing at a later date. That's a sale that Coach may never have gotten were it not for the proliferation of the counterfeits, it's hard to say.

I have a knockoff A7 RBA in my sweaty little paw right now. It's build quality is junk. I have two aga-s attys on the way... knockoff. They do not decrease my desire for well made attys in the least but it's a whole bunch cheaper for me to figure out what works for me with these knockoffs.

When I figure it out you can certainly believe I'm going to get a quality version of the ones I like. The reason I'm here at ECF and building my post count is so I can participate in the co-ops. I saw a picture of that new hybrid device with the 510 connection elsewhere and just knew I needed to get in on something like that. It's innovative, modular and to my sensibilities, sexy.

Here's an article about one of the studies: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100829/21095710809.shtml
 

Plumes.91

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Exactly SeanMoore. I bought a Bolt. It was my 1st tube mod. I bought it because I wanted a Silver Bullet more than anything as soon as I saw one, but no matter how many nights I spent looking at pictures of Silver Bullets I could NOT justify spending 90 bucks on a mod. I had my lavatube and my little 510 batteries and I just couldn't see spending 90 bucks on another device. By the time I got my lavatube I had been vaping for 2 years and I bought the lavatube for 50 bucks because it had variable voltage. The SB still taunted me back then but i still couldnt justify buying a 90 dollar unregulated tube mod. Flash forward another 2 years. Been vaping going on 5 years now. I have a Provari now. That lavatube broke when I tried sanding the firing button flat, and I have a Provari now. My lime green Silver Bullet showed up in my mailbox yesterday afternoon. I still love my Bolt because it goes down to a 18500 sized tube, and I can use a kick + 18350 with it... But I finally got my Provari and Silver Bullet :) And I would of never been able to afford or justify spending that 90 bucks on my new SB had I not been using my rebuildable clones. See how things work Buzz old pal? I'll have a ZAP one day too. But I love my Aga-T and nothing makes me more proud on these forums to post a picture of a successful coil on my Aga-T.
 
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SeanMoore

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You and I are in the same boat with bolt/SB, Plumes.91. With xmas shopping, not being sure about using these big scary batteries, and not even really being sure that I wanted an unregulated mod I picked up a bolt for cheap. Well, I'm in the club now and it's down to "what color?" and "when will I pull the trigger?" on a SB. Of course, the Provari people probably aren't going to get any of my money but hey, I like simple stuff.
 

SissySpike

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Plumes.91 You lost me with the wild dogs of Africa:) I do understand the point you are making I do not agree with it. Dose not mean I think your a low life or something. Or would not enjoy having a vape with you at the local vape shop or Vape friendly bar. I just am of the opinion buying rip offs is unethical. Its not a free market when one side has a different set of rules to cheat.
I personally never thought the Lavatube was a Provari copy. Yes it is round VV and has a fore button but they really are not much alike. I think it got dubbed a copy when it picked up the poor mans Provari handle.
I also know you bought a Provari just so you can say its not all of that! ( thats a joke from a few months back discussion) ;-)
 

Nurzrachit

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I feel guilty for buying the knockoff toilet paper. I was only thinking about myself, next time I will find out who invented it and buy their brand. Plumes you been vapin' 5 years and you are 21 years old now? When did you find time to smoke, or did you? Just throwing a little humor in, not attacking. Lets all agree to disagree. I saw a funny pic though someone posted, it is a stainless steel Hybrid coming out of China and all they did was post a pic of a Zenesis Cobalt with the ZEN erased. Now that is a slap in the chops!
 

Plumes.91

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21 years young, started smoking at age 14 man. Mom bought me a pack a day from age 14 to 18.
Been vaping on and off since age 16-17 I believe. I think my 1st account here was @ age 16.
And I joined up with this account at age 17. But I smoked pretty steadily from 14 to 20.
With a few long stretches of vaping in between.
Started vaping around the time Leaford's favorite PV was the e-pipe.
lol.

Thanks Buzz. I know what you mean, I just like to type lol.
 

Plumes.91

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No I guess I started this account Jan. 2012 I think I have things confused :p But yeah. Most of my friends, and I, we all started around 14. None of my friends vape. They all think e-cigarettes are junk that don't work. I try to tell them "noo you can get any flavor and nicotine level you want now. the throat hit can be great" and they say "nah all that juice tastes the same it tastes disgusting and its like an ultra light cigarette e-cigs are rip offs you just got used to them and now ur missing out" its crazy how some people can be so arrogant. I wish I could get them to quit with e-cigs but they wont. I have one of my friends convinced because he and I hung out a couple days in a row and I let him use my eGo spinner for those 2 days. But he doesn't want to make the switch. I just hope there are enough of us where the FDA will listen to us and all of our letters will hopefully show them that this e-cig thing works.
 

meli.

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I just am of the opinion buying rip offs is unethical. Its not a free market when one side has a different set of rules to cheat.

Well, as often said in Big Successful Business:

Once you set Ethics and Integrity aside the rest is Easy.

With regard to the Ethics argument:

"I" sits in the center of the word "ethical." There is no "our", "they" or "we". Maintaining and achieving ethics of excellence is Your individual responsibility.

Which leads me to your wristwatch. The first Automatic wristwatch was a British Invention, yet we know the Swiss to be the Best at creating timepieces although Seiko developed the quartz watch. Do you refrain from wearing a watch unless it's a Harwood Original? Do you refrain from using any watch unless its maker gives Seiko some kind of kickback?
Let's not even start thinking about knock off Kettles.

Do you believe that as the Chinese invented the electronic cigarette Provari et al should be paying royalties to the Chinese for using their concept?
Or do you believe that Provari et al Asked the Chinese if it was okay to use their concept?

In Business we have Brand Management. Provari do an excellent job in maintaining it as does the Golden Greek and yet I have read, not only on this forum but many others, that He views Chinese knock offs Not as a slant but as a Compliment because although they may look Similar to his devices the Quality, Beauty and Craftsmanship does Not come close to a GG Original.

So, unless you have spent a gazillion on designer RBA's that you now Regret having purchased and you're annoyed at not having waited a while longer for the cheapies, I cannot understand your protest.
 

SissySpike

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Well, as often said in Big Successful Business:

Once you set Ethics and Integrity aside the rest is Easy.

With regard to the Ethics argument:

"I" sits in the center of the word "ethical." There is no "our", "they" or "we". Maintaining and achieving ethics of excellence is Your individual responsibility.

Which leads me to your wristwatch. The first Automatic wristwatch was a British Invention, yet we know the Swiss to be the Best at creating timepieces although Seiko developed the quartz watch. Do you refrain from wearing a watch unless it's a Harwood Original? Do you refrain from using any watch unless its maker gives Seiko some kind of kickback?
Let's not even start thinking about knock off Kettles.

Do you believe that as the Chinese invented the electronic cigarette Provari et al should be paying royalties to the Chinese for using their concept?
Or do you believe that Provari et al Asked the Chinese if it was okay to use their concept?

In Business we have Brand Management. Provari do an excellent job in maintaining it as does the Golden Greek and yet I have read, not only on this forum but many others, that He views Chinese knock offs Not as a slant but as a Compliment because although they may look Similar to his devices the Quality, Beauty and Craftsmanship does Not come close to a GG Original.

So, unless you have spent a gazillion on designer RBA's that you now Regret having purchased and you're annoyed at not having waited a while longer for the cheapies, I cannot understand your protest.

You understand what I mean completely. You just want to make what you think are clever analogies to disagree. Ive already addressed everything you just posted in a few different posts please come up with something interesting I haven't herd yet.
 
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